Where is the evidence that the mind and brain are too different things?

Read this books: Consciousness beyond death, and life after life. I recommend the first one because apart from giving you a history of NDEs, it gives you scientific explanations why scientists can't debunk the fact that the mind/soul/spirit/consciousness goes on after death.

When you are clinically dead you are not supposed to be dreaming or be somewhere else (consciously), for the brain, as per scientists, is the "machine" that make all this happen. but there are hundreds of stories about people that have experienced NDEs, all matching one another, that proves that even when the brain is dead (for minutes, or as long as it has been recorded) they [the persons having the NDEs] have observed themselves on the operating table, have encountered dead relatives, have gained knowledge of situation that they could have not known because they were "dead" or not in touch with the information or informant, have heard and then, when they came back, described what was going on in the room; what the doctors said and the reaction of the relatives present when they were informed that the person have died,a and more...

This, to me, is evidence that the brain is just a containment for the mind, but the mind is the power that moves the brain, and they are both two different thing.

reply to post by Blister

Good for you Blister! There is a lot of good data about this from LRH.

What this crowd is looking for is probably the more conventional studies, and these were pioneered in modern times by Dr. Ian Stevenson. They have hundreds of cases on file there at the institute in Virginia that he started. Many of them document quite well past-life recall, mostly in children.

There are several other researchers around documenting this phenomenon.

For for those of us who are used to the idea this is kind of silly. Not only is there persistent and insistent support for the idea of a separable mind throughout many cultures for thousands of years, but anyone who has taken a serious look at paranormal phenomena cannot escape coming to this conclusion.

Though the serious research on this is small compared to the mountains of "anecdotal" data about it, there is significantly more serious research than most people realize. You have to dig for it.

Neurologists have no business in this field. They are studying the nervous system. That is not the same as a mind.

reply to post by Vicarious10000


It's a shame that you call him an idiot just because he has a different opinion...

On another note, you did bring up a good point earlier. I would like to know how chemicals in the brain are responsible for random habits that you don't think about like scratching without an itch? Now, I'm interesting in finding evidence for that...

On another note, I was searching through youtube and found and interesting video, but I'm not sure if it's authentic. Has it been tested multiple times and repeated or did it just work this one time? If didn't they show this to anyone so that the science community can further investigate:




Here is evidence that the mind does not have a single seat in the human brain, Consciousness is now scientifically proven to be dynamic...

First, there was an increase in the voltage levels of the signals in their brains. Second, the frequency and phase of neurons firing in different parts of the brain seemed to synchronise. Then some of these synchronised signals appeared to be triggering others. For example, activity in the occipital lobe seemed to cause activity in the frontal lobe. Because this activity only occurred in volunteers when they were aware of the words, Gaillard's team argue that it constitutes a consciousness signature. As much of this activity was spread across the brain, they say that consciousness has no single "seat". "Consciousness is more a question of dynamics, than of a local activity," says Gaillard.

- LINK

This is only evidence of one theory I heard... that consciousness may in fact be in atoms (everywhere at once)....

Physics suggests that energy doesn't dissappear but that it changes from one form to another. Just because our physical bodies die doesn't mean our soul does. Our minds are who we are, if we all had the same brain makeup and had an identical upbringing such as twins then wouldn't we be the same as far as our souls go? I mean even identical twins that grow up together with the same parents and lifestyle are usually completely different in personality.
Above all else there is not enough science done on the subject which baffles me as death is one of the certain things in life as well as something many people fear or dread. You would think that people would want to know exactly whats going to happen to them, I sure would.

Originally posted by arpgme
I really want to belief in life after death but there is no reason to do so. Can you please give me some evidence or something?

Mind, heart and soul?
Body, mind and spirit?

A "person" has traditionally been defined as of parts which have some distinction, and those descriptions come from the collective experiences of humanity, expressed philosophically and spiritually (theologically, metaphysically, etc.).

I am not sure any distinction implies life after death, just as no distinction implies a soul pre-exists the body. Those are matters of faith-- taught variously, although there are many common teachings.

If there is a part of us which is not dependent upon organic/material existence, one would expect to see a history of thousands of years with the following attributes:
* to have stories of ghosts,
* stories of out of body experiences,
* stories of transcendence,
* stories of a greater Reality in a spiritual realm,
* visions,
* religious experiences,
* communities of faith regardless of what culture and what era of history,
* create works of art and fiction to expresses deeper truths, and even,
* people using an advanced technology to communicate with perfect strangers and ask question such as, "Where is the evidence that the mind and brain are too different things?"

So if you run across such creatures with such a history, the evidence would seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of indicating a non-material existence as being a part of such creatures.

Originally posted by Frira

Originally posted by arpgme
If there is a part of us which is not dependent upon organic/material existence, one would expect to see a history of thousands of years with the following attributes:
* to have stories of ghosts,
* stories of out of body experiences,
* stories of transcendence,
* stories of a greater Reality in a spiritual realm,
* visions,
* religious experiences,
* communities of faith regardless of what culture and what era of history,
* create works of art and fiction to expresses deeper truths, and even,
* people using an advanced technology to communicate with perfect strangers and ask question such as, "Where is the evidence that the mind and brain are too different things?"

So if you run across such creatures with such a history, the evidence would seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of indicating a non-material existence as being a part of such creatures.

First off, this wouldn't be proof. It would be evidence...

Next, there could be more than one cause for this:

* to have stories of ghosts,

There are also stories about a paradise in the sky, we went there and saw that it wasn't there... Stories prove nothing and even if the story is "true" it's only evidence because you wouldn't know if it's delusion or something....

* stories of out of body experiences,

Science has found a way to cause this by changing the PHYSICAL state of the brain, and meditation changes the PHYSICAL brain function which makes it more like to have an OBE. There is no way of telling whether it is physical brain activity causing delusion of if it is some non-physical aspect.

* stories of transcendence,
* stories of a greater Reality in a spiritual realm,

We also know that the brain becomes delusional when dying and people do not like the idea of dying and not living for ever. That could be a possible reason for this.


* visions,

Could be caused by delusion, or if the vision is in the mind, it could be imagination which just by chance manifested...

* religious experiences,

I'm not sure about this but I'm guessing you mean a feeling of bliss by the holy spirit or whatever? I found a way to feel this myself without the religiousness so it's possible that it is just a chemical in the brain...

* communities of faith regardless of what culture and what era of history,

The Piraha and Some Japanese Spirituality do not believe in a soul or a god. It's about becoming nothingness

* create works of art and fiction to expresses deeper truths

Fiction and Art doesn't prove anything.... and there's no way of testing for most of these deeper truths...


* people using an advanced technology to communicate with perfect strangers and ask question such as, "Where is the evidence that the mind and brain are too different things?"

I have NO clue how that means anything other than that humanity has advanced in technology.

I'm not saying that all of this is the truth, I'm saying that because it could be and because what you said can also be true, there is no way to know for sure and thus it is unreliable information.


If someone asked me how do I know that the flying spaghetti monster exists and I said "Because you are on this Earth being hold down by his noodlely appendages and not floating up into space!"

and then someone said "No that's these little things called gravitons making gravity"

We would have no way to prove it for sure and thus it would just be "Theories" or "Ideas"


Fortunately we do have the technology and we did prove gravitons, but do you see the point I'm getting at?

reply to post by arpgme

I really want to belief in life after death but there is no reason to do so. Can you please give me some evidence or something?

Are you saying that you willingly volunteer to leave this mortal coil....ie die?

Hey, you said you wanted evidence of life after death, maybe you should rephrase and reevaluate your believes and what you want, because you would not like the evidence given, me thinks.

Where is the evidence that the mind and brain are too different things?

It's right in front of you every day and every night. It's so obvious that you will never notice it, or guess it, nope not in a million years and a million lifetimes. The evidence is quite simply..... everywhere.

Originally posted by arpgme

Originally posted by Frira

Originally posted by arpgme
If there is a part of us which is not dependent upon organic/material existence, one would expect to see a history of thousands of years with the following attributes:
* to have stories of ghosts,
* stories of out of body experiences,
* stories of transcendence,
* stories of a greater Reality in a spiritual realm,
* visions,
* religious experiences,
* communities of faith regardless of what culture and what era of history,
* create works of art and fiction to expresses deeper truths, and even,
* people using an advanced technology to communicate with perfect strangers and ask question such as, "Where is the evidence that the mind and brain are too different things?"

So if you run across such creatures with such a history, the evidence would seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of indicating a non-material existence as being a part of such creatures.

First off, this wouldn't be proof. It would be evidence...

Next, there could be more than one cause for this:

* to have stories of ghosts,

There are also stories about a paradise in the sky, we went there and saw that it wasn't there... Stories prove nothing and even if the story is "true" it's only evidence because you wouldn't know if it's delusion or something....

* stories of out of body experiences,

Science has found a way to cause this by changing the PHYSICAL state of the brain, and meditation changes the PHYSICAL brain function which makes it more like to have an OBE. There is no way of telling whether it is physical brain activity causing delusion of if it is some non-physical aspect.

* stories of transcendence,
* stories of a greater Reality in a spiritual realm,

We also know that the brain becomes delusional when dying and people do not like the idea of dying and not living for ever. That could be a possible reason for this.


* visions,

Could be caused by delusion, or if the vision is in the mind, it could be imagination which just by chance manifested...

* religious experiences,

I'm not sure about this but I'm guessing you mean a feeling of bliss by the holy spirit or whatever? I found a way to feel this myself without the religiousness so it's possible that it is just a chemical in the brain...

* communities of faith regardless of what culture and what era of history,

The Piraha and Some Japanese Spirituality do not believe in a soul or a god. It's about becoming nothingness

* create works of art and fiction to expresses deeper truths

Fiction and Art doesn't prove anything.... and there's no way of testing for most of these deeper truths...


* people using an advanced technology to communicate with perfect strangers and ask question such as, "Where is the evidence that the mind and brain are too different things?"

I have NO clue how that means anything other than that humanity has advanced in technology.

I'm not saying that all of this is the truth, I'm saying that because it could be and because what you said can also be true, there is no way to know for sure and thus it is unreliable information.


If someone asked me how do I know that the flying spaghetti monster exists and I said "Because you are on this Earth being hold down by his noodlely appendages and not floating up into space!"

and then someone said "No that's these little things called gravitons making gravity"

We would have no way to prove it for sure and thus it would just be "Theories" or "Ideas"


Fortunately we do have the technology and we did prove gravitons, but do you see the point I'm getting at?

I see rhetoric, is that what you were getting at?

Take the most mundane view and toss out the sublime to make a point. Show someone a flower picked for them because you thought it was precious and be told by the recipient, "Eeww! A weed! Gross!"

Fine, live a life in the mundane, and I'll live beholding the sublime-- which also means, I simply turn away from this discussion; because I have meaningful and creative things to do. And I am taking my flower with me-- get your own.

reply to post by Frira


It's funny how you just ran away and called me "mundane" just because I said that it's POSSIBLE that there is a way to explain this all away with the material world. The whole point of this topic is for me to have some evidence to believe, I want evidence and I stated this at the beginning.

Saying that stories are told, that is just not evidence...

last i checked atoms and molecules pretty much make up everything in the physical realm. so their is no way i was wrong with my answer!

didn't even read your reply but i can tell you that even if chemicals controled all my decision making that chemicals are not possible without molecules!

reply to post by Vicarious10000


Well, we know that thought is created by neurons talking to each other means of electromagnetism. Without the two neurons and the connection, there can be no thought. Therefore when you die, you can't think. Even if atoms/molecules exists, I don't think there is electromagnetism which allows them to communicate with each other. I hope I'm wrong about that though because if there is electromagnetism between atoms (or any form of communication between atoms) that means that it would simulate thought but on a quantum level...

EDIT:

Here is some food for though. Imagine going back a thousand years and telling the people that they are made of about 64 trillion consciousnesses. They'll probably "Are you insane!? We are one mind and one body!".

Of course, YOU would be right because that's about the amount of cells you have and they are all consciousness... This is just something I thought about

www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp


Weigh a person before they die...then weigh them after they die....Your soul weighs 1 ounce.

Snopes says it's true, proven by scientists.


There is no scientific theory otherwise on why you lose 1 ounce when you die. Therefor your Soul and Brain are 2 different things.

reply to post by Pervius


Very interesting.

Blind woman has near death experience and SEES for the first time in her LIFE:




For people saying that Near Death Experience is just a mess up in the brain, have a look at this. The lady was having brain operation NO WAY her near death experience can be from her brain:




I think I'm starting to restore my faith in life after death again, but if you have more evidence just post.

reply to post by arpgme


Great Vid's, has restored a little more faith and hope for myself as well, thanks for posting them.

Astral Projection - you will have to verify it for yourself.