A challenge to remote voiewers and those who astral travel

Originally posted by miniatus


.. psychics shouldn't have an issue either, and I've heard plenty of claims from astral travelers that they can do the same kind of thing..

I've been thinking along the lines of OccamAssassin. I would think someone claiming an astral-travel ability would need a location to travel to. All the experiences I've read about entailed a person literally being able to move their sense of perception out of their body and to another physical location, to possibly see what is there.

Most people I've talked to/read about said nothing about being psychic and thought that they had somehow just travelled to a physical location with their awareness. It seemed to me to be more of a guided thing... like 'I'm going to go visit such and such location now'.

Perhaps it is all in who you read/talk to, and I usually don't read about or talk to people who claim to have psychic powers, but I have met people who really believe that they somehow shifted their sense of perception outside of their body. (From their point of view, they weren't trying to lay claim to some kind of magical ability, but they just had these odd experiences.) So, I don't see how this test would work for them.

I have not read about remote viewing though, and have never met anybody who has had an experience with it, so perhaps this test should be specific for that.

And maybe my definition of astral projection is wrong. There seem to be so many definitions. There is a large leap between the definition used when scientists like Ehrsson induce 'out of body' feelings in people and the definition 'astral travelers' use.

I wish there were more participants here though!

Ah, the great challenges of the lazy skeptics. "Prove it to me," they say but they are never up to the challenge of learning the techniques for themselves. Any one who is fairly advanced would not waste their time or energy trying to prove something to someone. Energy and intent are too precious to waste on something showy like this.

A show off is not likely to be successful because the intention or vibration set up would be a shallow dip into spirit. Why not take the challenge of diving into the deep end yourself?

So-called 'astral projectors' can't prove the phenomenon, because it is not real. Astral projections are nothing more than lucid dreams, and are wholly a construct of the dreaming mind. That is not to belittle lucid dreaming, however, which is a very interesting phenomenon.

reply to post by miniatus


I will give you the dignity of a response since it is clear that you have put some thought into the challenge.

I must pass. I see no benefit from frightening you or anyone else.

Instead, challenge yourself and learn the method. Then you will see it for yourself.

"When you understand the way, you see it in all things."

you drew a red circle with a 12 in it.

I wish to take you up on your challenge. i will check back later today to get the file and do my best. Cheerio Lad!

RC

Originally posted by JustinSee
i figured you already archived it and sent the key out to that guy, so i shouldn't have messed the rules up too much. lol.

Nobody has the password, in fact anyone who's downloaded the archive by now knows there's two archives.. one encrypted zip file inside of another encrypted zip file .. AES256 .. I'm very determined to prevent the zip files from being brute forced before the time is up =) I have no interest in letting someone know the answers before the conclusion.

As for numbers being difficult ( mentioned above by another person ) .. I am aware, there's no straw-man set up it's just a test.. I said in an earlier post that 2 out of 3 would be impressive.. so color and shape is also good.. not perfect, but good.

Originally posted by booyakasha
ok, I've astral projected a bunch of times. I want to try this, not only because I think it is real, but i want to prove it to myself that it is. It sure as hell feels real, and i believe it is, but to actually prove it would be a new science basically.
But i can't astral project every day, maybe 8 times a month at most. But give me some time and I will try.

Edit: didn't realize you were only doing this one night. I''ll still try but next time lets go at least week.

edit on 21-7-2011 by booyakasha because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-7-2011 by booyakasha because: (no reason given)

I don't mind conducting a second experiment and allowing a week.. but the archive with the answer won't be provided a week in advance, that allows far too much time to brute force the archive even though I still doubt that would be possible in a week's time without some serious super computing ( even using a GPU I don't think these passwords will be brute forced any time soon ) ..

After the conclusion of this test.. we should look back at it, discuss the weak points, discuss what forum might be better suited, discuss the time frame.. all aspects, and repeat it once more.

Originally posted by CourageousEyesoftheHeart
Ah, the great challenges of the lazy skeptics. "Prove it to me," they say but they are never up to the challenge of learning the techniques for themselves. Any one who is fairly advanced would not waste their time or energy trying to prove something to someone. Energy and intent are too precious to waste on something showy like this.

A show off is not likely to be successful because the intention or vibration set up would be a shallow dip into spirit. Why not take the challenge of diving into the deep end yourself?

edit on 21-7-2011 by CourageousEyesoftheHeart because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-7-2011 by CourageousEyesoftheHeart because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-7-2011 by CourageousEyesoftheHeart because: (no reason given)

It's nothing to do with lazy, it's merely about testing.. You take advantage of all the benefits that science has provided you with the light you use at night, the electricity you consume through out the day, the very computer you're on to respond, the internet through which you send your response.. Science is a very powerful tool, and I would imagine Remote Viewing and Astral Projection to also be very wonderful things.. but before anything such as that can even begin to be understood, it has to first be demonstrated in a controlled situation..

It has nothing to do with showing off, and I am sorry but I look on things like that as a weak excuse by those that fantasize about having the gift but really don't.. those same people post in forums and tell amazing tales about all of the things they've experienced which is showing off just the same.. they'll tell you all about what they did but refuse to give any evidence of it .. and the refusals tend to be the one you mentioned, not wanting to show off.. perhaps they are having a bad day and can't concentrate, or their gift only works on the the second tuesday of every third month.. and only if the moon is full that day.. My position here is lets put an end silliness and conduct a fair test.. I mentioned above that after this is concluded, we should discuss how to improve on the idea.. was it too strict? some say I gave away too much information ..

I have received some guesses in my private messages by people who don't wish to be mentioned in the forum, that is also allowed.. but of course if one of those people happens to get it right it doesn't do much because nobody will know about it.. except me and the person who guessed of course, and none of this is about someone's word, it's about evidence.

Since I can no longer edit my original post:

NEW ACCEPTED CHALLENGERS:

booyakasha
Anonymous ( a guess was already submitted to me via PM )

Welcome =) .. booyakasha's objection to the short time period is noted, we will do this again and allow a week.. this one experiment is by no means conclusive, I don't mind acknowledging that.. but it's a start

When none of the Astral Projectors pass the test, we can expect to hear excuses such as "It didn't work because one can't project into another's astral spectrum", or they will explain that small physical objects (the pad being used in this experiment) are "imperceptible" and "fuzzy" when viewed from the astral level due to some kind of mystical "energy imbalance" between the physical and incorporeal realms. In other words, the same old excuses. However, putting aside my sardonic skepticism for just a moment, if any of the participants do indeed come even remotely close to passing this test, I will get "I WAS WRONG" tattooed on my forehead and post the pics online.

Good job, OP... but I think everyone who follows these types of threads knows how it's going to end up. Also, the excuses made in this thread are rather piss poor. Yeah, TPTB have hushed up all evidence on the internets...etc.

Originally posted by Maskirovka
When none of the Astral Projectors pass the test, we can expect to hear excuses such as "It didn't work because one can't project into another's astral spectrum", or they will explain that small physical objects (the pad being used in this experiment) are "imperceptible" and "fuzzy" when viewed from the astral level due to some kind of mystical "energy imbalance" between the physical and incorporeal realms. In other words, the same old excuses. However, putting aside my sardonic skepticism for just a moment, if any of the participants do indeed come even remotely close to passing this test, I will get "I WAS WRONG" tattooed on my forehead and post the pics online.

That's fine, perhaps in round two of this experiment I will create a large 20x20 poster and put it up in a wooded area and even provide general coordinates =) .. far more effort on my part required to do so, but hey i'm willing to work to create a fair test.

I don't buy those types of excuses however because many claim this to be a very vivid experience.. it can't be both vivid and also so useless as to not be able to see clearly defined shapes and distinct colors.

OK RV'ers .. you heard him... lets see if you can earn him a tattoo on his forehead =)

GOAL CLARIFICATION:

Simply based on some of the anonymous attempts I've had so far I want to re-state what I'm looking for here, I've posted it in the original post but I'm going to try to state it as clear as possible.

What am I looking for?

1. A description of the shape drawn
2. The color, not the color of the shape, but the color the shape is drawn on ( the color of the material ).. the color of ink/crayon/paint isn't important but if you want to include that in your guess for extra credit you can.
3. The number(s) contained inside of the object. I say plural because the number is in the range of 0-99
4. Be as descriptive as possible

Based on these points, a valid attempt would be something like this:

Shape: Oval
Color: Orange ( this would indicate that it's an oval drawn on orange material/paper/cloth/whatever, even if it's drawn in black crayon )
Number: 72

You can of course add in all the extra detail you want.. you can say that it's drawn on cloth, or paper, or cardboard, or glass.. you could say it's drawn with crayon or marker, or pencil.. you can add any additional elements you see.. but the stated goals are those above. Those details are the target details.. those could be important.. it could be a nuclear launch code =) save your country.

My guess it's a magic 8 ball. Black, round, with white letting and the number 8.

I know there's bound to be people out there trying to brute force the archive file open before the deadline hits .. but as I said earlier, there's an archive within an archive and both have extremely strong passwords.. I tested the strength of just one of them using a tool that estimates how long to brute force .. the answer was "About 717 quattuorvigintillion years"

Originally posted by Maskirovka
When none of the Astral Projectors pass the test, we can expect to hear excuses such as "It didn't work because one can't project into another's astral spectrum", or they will explain that small physical objects (the pad being used in this experiment) are "imperceptible" and "fuzzy" when viewed from the astral level due to some kind of mystical "energy imbalance" between the physical and incorporeal realms. In other words, the same old excuses. However, putting aside my sardonic skepticism for just a moment, if any of the participants do indeed come even remotely close to passing this test, I will get "I WAS WRONG" tattooed on my forehead and post the pics online.

Actually, several, including me --and I claim no paranormal powers, but only an interest in it-- have questioned whether ANY persons who do claim the ability to "Astral project" have also claimed they can see or even find a piece of paper and read it.

From the experience of many-- it is a false claim put in the mouths of persons who have out of body expereinces. My experience with such people is that they who claim to astral project would be highly suspicious of anyone claiming the ability being tested here.

My casual research has suggested to me:
* OBE's are almost always taken by the person as spiritually experiencing something.
* Except for near-death and extreme-trauma experiences where the experience is seeing themselves from mere feet away, what is described is along the lines of a spiritual manifestation of the material reality-- fluid, morphing.
* An example would be seeing a room in a structure which represented the kitchen of the person's childhood home, but passing into the next room is "seen" as the bedroom from their college dorm, and the person realizes it is "home."
* True case I know of (and the person was looking for understanding-- not "proof" of any ability) goes like this:
- Experience 1: An old school house in the country, vaguely understood to be "north" but near the city where the person was. Person describes as a "lucid dream."
- Experience 2: "Traveling" to a railway which is vaguely understood to be near the school house. Again, person describes as "lucid dream."
- Experience 3: Person sees self in lucid dream, thinking she/he is traveling toward the school house, but the dream changes to where he/she is rushing to a hospital. This dream repeats several times over years.
- Experience 4 through n: Brief encounters with various places the person associates, without claiming understanding, of geographic locations connected or near the school house and the railway. Original "visions" are persistent in memory and retain detail with no apparent "trigger" the memory presents itself.
- Experience n+: Decades later, person explores, in "real life" the area 250 miles away. Finds that a "pioneer museum" now exists in that area, complete with a period school house. The person says, "Right area, wrong school house; and too close to the railway." Later corresponds with curator. Curator says, "No, this school house was brought in from another community. The one this community had was torn down, but the one you described was just where you said you thought it was-- there is a hospital there, now."
- Twilight Zone theme music is almost heard at this point.

Now as that experience relates to the test:
The person explains in great detail certain things-- the green tone of the glass in the old school house, the desks seen inside being of particular note because of the amount of description given when the person recounts it.
The person has no idea why this place is important-- still.
For decades, dreams, visions, and OBD's are described by the person-- as if brought there-- not as if willing himself/herself to go there.

I think, overriding specific details, is the sense of the place-- both a school house and a hospital-- and so it seems whatever it is about, it is the location, not the details of present structures. That person expresses a certainty of a profound sense of meaning and yet after decades of experiences (not related to this subject), no meaning has been identified.

I can see no way to test those experiences-- just listen to the person and help without placing my own tags and labels on it. It means what it means-- but until that person knows what it means, none of us will.

In another case, I have asked a person who believes they have had several out of body experiences and who has also expressed hope that the ability and experiences will resolve an important issue, if they have tried to go to the exact place he/she believes is the key to resolving the issue. His/her answer was to the effect that the one and only attempt to do this resulted in confusion and a sense of being lost and frustrated-- but that when it happened apart from the will, the results were much more promising. That person ascribes the experiences as of or from God. Again, I will not bias the person with my own labels of his/her experiences.

Demanding that either of these people "prove" their experience would only result in a look at me indicating they know I have no idea what they are talking about. But I do know what they are talking about-- I know enough not to seek proof, but only guide them in their search for meaning. It means what it means.

All of that is to encourage persons who have such experiences and to discourage persons who hold their own spirituality with disdain from applying their bias to others. That disdain of the spiritual experience is a modern construct which is not "proving" to be beneficial to the human experience. It separates us-- causes religion and spirituality to become about power instead of meaning. Everyone hates the Church when it focused upon "Inquisitions" and Imperialism, and politics and greed and power devoid of the spiritual-- but modern man, by choice, knows almost nothing of the gentle and graceful meaning and purpose of the spiritual life. That latter part, is the predominant but very quiet activity of all religions, and those who experience it hate those who have infiltrated their religions with material and worldly claims and agendas.

reply to post by Frira

Actually, several, including me --and I claim no paranormal powers, but only an interest in it-- have questioned whether ANY persons who do claim the ability to "Astral project" have also claimed they can see or even find a piece of paper and read it.

From the experience of many-- it is a false claim put in the mouths of persons who have out of body expereinces. My experience with such people is that they who claim to astral project would be highly suspicious of anyone claiming the ability being tested here.

The claims of those people are very specific, and as mentioned, the government saw merit by trying to train a squadron of people to use such gifts in spying.. of course this didn't work out very well, the program was abolished. This challenge is directed at those who claim the phenomena is genuine and provides a method to demonstrate that belief. Objects should not be an issue for these people.. if it is, we will look at adjusting the parameters for the test in round two... however, I've gotten lots of anonymous attempts sent to me and those people, while choosing to stay out of the public eye, usually sound pretty confident in their attempt and remain very descriptive.

* OBE's are almost always taken by the person as spiritually experiencing something.

Yes often they are, though that can also be explained by a region of the brain being stimulated due to things as mundane as electromagnetic fields.. this sensation can be reproduced in a lab. My position is it's not genuine.. spiritual, or rather emotional effect of it is genuine.. I just think the nature of it is not as paranormal as believed. I also don't believe it's true OBE, just feels that way.

I can see no way to test those experiences-- just listen to the person and help without placing my own tags and labels on it. It means what it means-- but until that person knows what it means, none of us will.

It's very easy to be vague, especially if there's any sort of feedback from another person.. cold reading has existed for longer than any of us here.. This challenge isn't difficult, it falls in line with what remote viewers have been called on to do in the past, what many have claimed to be able to do and so forth.. this test is for those people..

Demanding that either of these people "prove" their experience would only result in a look at me indicating they know I have no idea what they are talking about. But I do know what they are talking about-- I know enough not to seek proof, but only guide them in their search for meaning. It means what it means.

I'm not demanding anything.. I'm offering an opportunity that satisfies the need for controlled circumstances, nobody has to accept. But the experiences you describe can also often be purely psychological in nature without any ties to paranormal concept.. someone who feels they've left their body and had abstract feelings and visuals may very well have felt that, but it could be a product of the mind .. a sort of lucid dream experience and nothing more... that isn't to say it's not profound to them, indeed it probably is. But we're looking go test true separation of body from mind.. If in fact someone can travel outside of their body and see things along the way, then that is what we're looking to test.. not something more likened to a dream.

All of that is to encourage persons who have such experiences and to discourage persons who hold their own spirituality with disdain from applying their bias to others. That disdain of the spiritual experience is a modern construct which is not "proving" to be beneficial to the human experience. It separates us-- causes religion and spirituality to become about power instead of meaning. Everyone hates the Church when it focused upon "Inquisitions" and Imperialism, and politics and greed and power devoid of the spiritual-- but modern man, by choice, knows almost nothing of the gentle and graceful meaning and purpose of the spiritual life. That latter part, is the predominant but very quiet activity of all religions, and those who experience it hate those who have infiltrated their religions with material and worldly claims and agendas.

Ultimately the point of this is to investigate the phenomena.. I won't accept someone with blind faith who tells me things like this exist. Many things fall in the realm of self deluded fantasy, lucid dreaming or pure imagination.. and that is fine, but it will never be viewed as anything more than that without proper testing..

I appreciate the long and insightful response and indeed, if there are any adjustments you would see fit that would make this more valid for you then we can look at that, come to some level of agreement to protocol and make another attempt.

I'm not going to download the file,

just wait for the answer lol

I always loved trying these kind of experiments out, wrong or right, it gets the imagination going, and that's never a bad thing.

Originally posted by Darkblade71
I'm not going to download the file,

just wait for the answer lol

I always loved trying these kind of experiments out, wrong or right, it gets the imagination going, and that's never a bad thing.

That's fine.. I'm sure there are also a lot of people "playing along at home" quietly .. feel free to do that! but realize that any attempts revealed AFTER the answers are known will be thrown out because there's no way to know if someone cheated at that point. =)