A Question Pertaining to the 32nd Degree Initiation Play

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
I don't know if your degree down there is the same as ours, but I find the 17th degree amazing, just amazing. There's so much to work with in that degree. Of course, they're all amazing if you take the time to open your eyes (as I have no doubt you have, Senrak). I will be doing the largest part in the 29th this year... speaking of which, I'd better start studying for it

!

Yours follow the basic "Pike" pattern as these were the first Scottish Rite Rituals in Canada, but have been revised from time to time. Ours (of course) follow Pike since he was our Sov. Gr. Commander for years, but he also revised (and revised and revised) his own work and after his death there have been several revisions, so they wouldn't be identical, but I"m sure they're very similar.

..and you're right the 17th is a great degree. I haven't seen (or read) the 29th Degree (Scottish Knight of St. Andrew) in a while. Perhaps I should do that to refresh my memory.

Well, not to toot my own horn, but I will be Sieur de Coucy this year

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
Well, not to toot my own horn, but I will be Sieur de Coucy this year

Cool!

Originally posted by senrak

Sorry. No suit of armor in the 32nd Degree of my jurisdiction.

Nor in any other, I'd bet. The idea of bunch of guys walking around the Lodge in armor is just a bit too much.

In my jurisdiction, for the ritual of the 32�, the officers wear tuxedos while the Candidate wears a white robe, a crown of laurel, and the Apron and Cordon of the Degree. The Vedic Poets wear purple robes and jewels containing the Delta within the Square and Compasses.

Fiat Lvx.



[edit on 24-8-2004 by Masonic Light]

Actually my copy of "The Book" is a photocopy re-print from Kessinger Press that I bought last year when they did a one-off print of 1000 copies.
Can't see how it is you can claim this book is inaccurate as to the descriptions and meaning of the icons and symbols of the Scottish Rite - its not as if the symbols have change in 150 years or so, why would their meanings change?
Also I can't see how the heirachy would have changed in that time either, it is intristic to the rituals and various lodge types.
By the way as far as my favorite ritual, I'm quite interested in the 21st degree at the moment.
The Noachite ritual is basically a "Star Chamber" kangaroo court where an "enemy of masonry" is charged and sentenced (without representation.)
Held in a remote location on the evening of a full moon with no lights in the lodge other than moonlight with everyone wearing masks, the high commander is "unknown" and anonymous the charges against the individual are read out and a suitible punishment is decided upon and then authorised.
And it is listed as a "significant degree"

Originally posted by MrNECROS
The Noachite ritual is basically a "Star Chamber" kangaroo court where an "enemy of masonry" is charged and sentenced (without representation.)
Held in a remote location on the evening of a full moon with no lights in the lodge other than moonlight with everyone wearing masks, the high commander is "unknown" and anonymous the charges against the individual are read out and a suitible punishment is decided upon and then authorised.
And it is listed as a "significant degree"

Well, at least your description of this degree is closer to the real thing than your description of the 32�.

The 21� used to be called Noachite. When Pike re-wrote the rituals of the Southern Jurisdiction, he changed its name to Prussian Knight.

The drama of the degree is based on actual historical occurences, and is set in the middle ages. Pike, who was an attorney and scholar of this history of law, no doubt gave the degree much insight in its modern form.

In this degree, the Candidate represents a Saxon returning home after the Crusades, only to find that his property has been illegally confiscated by the Bishop of Vienna. The Bishop has paid off the courts, and the Candidate receives no justice.

The candidate then takes his grievances to the Vehmgericht, which was a real organization of vigilante judges who fought court corruption at the time (these tribunals did indeed meet in the forest under the moon). Since neither man is able to prove his case, the judges order a trial by ordeal, leaving the final decision to God. The Saxon wins the trial, and the Bishop is forced into exile in disgrace for his crime.

The moral of this degree is the proper application of ethics, and a full description of the ritual is available in Hutchens' "A Bridge To Light" and Clausen's "Commentaries On Morals and Dogma".

Fiat Lvx.

[edit on 25-8-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
The candidate then takes his grievances to the Vehmgericht, which was a real organization of vigilante judges who fought court corruption at the time (these tribunals did indeed meet in the forest under the moon). Since neither man is able to prove his case, the judges order a trial by ordeal, leaving the final decision to God. The Saxon wins the trial, and the Bishop is forced into exile in disgrace for his crime.

Really? In our version, the "bad guy" (I don't believe he's a bishop up here, but I don't remember) fails the ordeals, but then physical evidence comes to light a few moments afterward -- so he is convicted on the weight of the physical evidence, although of course the ordeals also convicted him.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Actually my copy of "The Book" is a photocopy re-print from Kessinger Press that I bought last year when they did a one-off print of 1000 copies.
Can't see how it is you can claim this book is inaccurate as to the descriptions and meaning of the icons and symbols of the Scottish Rite - its not as if the symbols have change in 150 years or so, why would their meanings change?
Also I can't see how the heirachy would have changed in that time either, it is intristic to the rituals and various lodge types.
By the way as far as my favorite ritual, I'm quite interested in the 21st degree at the moment.
The Noachite ritual is basically a "Star Chamber" kangaroo court where an "enemy of masonry" is charged and sentenced (without representation.)
Held in a remote location on the evening of a full moon with no lights in the lodge other than moonlight with everyone wearing masks, the high commander is "unknown" and anonymous the charges against the individual are read out and a suitible punishment is decided upon and then authorised.
And it is listed as a "significant degree"

MN,

Just because you (a non-Mason...an ANTI-Mason for that matter) "can't see it" doesn't mean it isn't so. You're hearing this from MEMBERS and you're NOT ONE. The "Book" is not an accurate, current book. It's historically interesting, but it's no longer utilized by the AASR except for research. And again (I'm getting tired of typing this) The Northern Masonic Jurisdiction (which that book was printed for) has changed their rituals DRASTICALLY. One of their degrees (the 23rd I think...) is about the 4 chaplains in the World War who gave their life jackets to others and perished. Bet THAT'S not in "The Book" Several have been recently changed (I have a list somewhere of which ones, but I haven't read them yet...as I don't have copies of the newest ones) Has the hierarchy changed in 150 years? Well the AASR is 203 years old and it HAS changed somewhat. At one time there were practically no 33rd Degree members...today there are a LOT. At one time in teh Southern Jurisdiction there was no such title as "Knight Commander of the Court of Honour" (K.C.C.H.) Which is given for meritorious service to the Rite and the Community. Now there are quite a few KCCH members and from them the 33rds are chosen. Yep. It's changed. Sorry you can't "see it"



[edit on 25-8-2004 by senrak]

Yes the 21st Degree is also known as "Prussian Knight", always was, still and is described as such in "The Book."
Further proof that Masonic Lite does not own a copy of it.

Gosh - you mean they changed the 23rd degree?
That would kind of mean they had to change the 22nd, 24th and 25th degrees as well.
If you only concern yourself with the literal components of a degree from the Areopagus then you clearly are not worthy of them, according to both Pike & McClenechan.

Why I'm sure you could substitute all the main characters with football players, replace the arc of covenant with the superbowl and the rain of fire from Adonai with a really nasty run of injuries and losses to the Denver Broncos, but then again it would still have to deliver the same moral lesson culminating in the 25th degree.
Apart from that it probably wouldn't be taken all that seriously, so why bother.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Yes the 21st Degree is also known as "Prussian Knight", always was , still and is described as such in "The Book."

Wrong. Originally it was called Noachite, and the degree had nothing to do with Prussia or knighthood; it was about the sons of Noah discovering ancient archives of stonemasonry that had been deposited before the Deluge.

Further proof that Masonic Lite does not own a copy of it.

I own about 400 Masonic books, including an old copy of McLenachan's. A couple of years ago, I bought 2 more copies from E-bay, and donated them to my Lodge's library.
McLenachan begins his analysis of the 21� thusly:

"This degree is based on the Order of Knights , known in Germany as the Holy Vehme, who exacted justice fircely and morally. They inculcated humility, and constantly remembered the price of pride, exacted upon the descendents of Noah who erected the Toewl of Babel..." and so on.

You keep calling this "The Book" as if it were some sort of ultimate pronouncement on Masonry. In reality, it is only one of hundreds of Masonic monitors, and certainly is not the best one. It is interesting for the Masonic historian, but does not represent the rituals of the Rite as currently worked in the Northern Jurisdiction or England, and has never represented the Rituals of the Southern Jurisdiction, which are completely different from the Northern USA and English.
It seems I recall that we've already explained this to you. The official monitor of the Supreme Council 33� of the Southern Jurisdiction is "A Bridge To Light" by Dr. Rex Hutchens, 33�, G.C., which replaced the former official monitor, "Clausen's Commentaries On Morals and Dogma" in the 1980's. Hutchens' book is a monitor of the Pike Ritual that is currently in use; McLenachan's book is of no importance in the Mother Jurisdiction excepting history students only.

[edit on 29-8-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Gosh - you mean they changed the 23rd degree?
That would kind of mean they had to change the 22nd, 24th and 25th degrees as well.
If you only concern yourself with the literal components of a degree from the Areopagus then you clearly are not worthy of them, according to both Pike & McClenechan.

Why I'm sure you could substitute all the main characters with football players, replace the arc of covenant with the superbowl and the rain of fire from Adonai with a really nasty run of injuries and losses to the Denver Broncos, but then again it would still have to deliver the same moral lesson culminating in the 25th degree.
Apart from that it probably wouldn't be taken all that seriously, so why bother.

LOL! To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if they DID that someday soon. Already, some of the degrees have taken such a strange turn that I don't pay much attention to them, let alone attend their conferral. I'm sort of a traditionalist in that sense. I like the OLD stuff better. But...the Supreme Council didn't ask my opinion, either.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Gosh - you mean they changed the 23rd degree?
That would kind of mean they had to change the 22nd, 24th and 25th degrees as well.

EVERY degree in the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite has been changed in some form over the past two centuries; in several cases, they have been changed many times. You have already been told that.

If you only concern yourself with the literal components of a degree from the Areopagus then you clearly are not worthy of them, according to both Pike & McClenechan.

Indeed. But the point you're missing is that you, a non-Mason, are in no position to judge what a "literal component" is. You have never experienced the conferral of a degree, and are obviously not familiar even with the basic symbolism of the Pike ritual, which has been in use in the Southern Jurisdiction for many, many years. Neither are you familiar with the new "Revised Standard Albert Pike Ritual" which was approved by the Supreme Council several years ago, and is being implemented in some Valleys; even some of these differ materially from the original Pike work.

Nor have you apparently even bothered to read the books I recommended that contain descriptions of the degrees currently in use.

All this considered, it is not a stretch of the imagine to compare you to a man who speaks Spanish only, yet tries to teach everyone else Mandarin Chinese.

Fiat Lvx.



[edit on 29-8-2004 by Masonic Light]

Masonic Lite, your response is interesting in that it seems to show 2 things to me - the first as I suspected, is that you have actually done this degree, I believe this is as far as you have travelled so far down the path.
The second though is that your response is quite clearly flawed on the factual side of things although you have the general gist right for once.
He doesn't open his explaination of the ritual in the manner you say but there are elements of what you claim in the closing passages.
This would tend to indicate you haven't seen the passages for yourself but maybe know someone who has, or you're just having a wild stab in the dark based on what you know of the rite, I really should get that commercial webspace set up so I can post the passages for you to see for yourself.
The statement about Noah and such is claimed to be a lesson highly regarded by the Knights of Holy Vehme themselves.

He seems to state that in 1884 the purpose of this body is to perform swift and silent justice at the request of inferior lodges when required.

MrNecros;

You fail to understand what is being reported here... you are not looking at a current version of ritual, and more, do not even comprehend what you are reading, and yet, here you are, attempting to teach US, the real Masons, what the ritual teaches...

Sort of like that spanish speaker trying to teach mandarin chinese...

you have the book but cannot even begin to comprehend it...

And you Theron, completely fail to understand the basic principles of the Areopagus.
The purpose of Freemasonry is to �educate� (I say �brainwash�) through symbolism and allegory.
The symbols have not changed in 150 years and neither have the morals and teachings.
The rituals could have been changed, but not in any way that would be allowed to interfere with the final teachings.
This would mean that as long as you can comprehend them from the old degrees then they are valid.
It would generally be regarded that if you can�t then your really not cut out for life in the Areopagus of Knights Kadosh.
From my investigations they haven�t changed significantly in the higher degrees, although I believe it is common to have additional abstracted versions of the Blue Degrees in most lodges to �better educate those who cannot be.�
It is only your arrogance that allows you to persist in this manner, because you genuinely believe that only you can possibly comprehend these teachings�when you are ready, which you have been told by those who know better that you aren�t�yet�but one day�etc...
It is amazing that you genuinely believe that it is not possible for someone to be able to read this book � like you believe that it is written in some secret and mysterious language, it isn�t.
It is written in fairly simple English with lots of pictures and diagrams and arranged in a manner to make the teachings of the rite clear.
I�m under the impression it is only for the perusal of 32nd Degree Masons, it clearly sates in several places that you can be expelled from the Scottish Rite for letting it fall into the hands of people like myself.
I guess someone got the boot over this, which would explain a lot of the hooo-haaa that surrounded my purchase of it.

"You have the book but cannot even begin to comprehend it..."
Wow, and you don't have the book and believe you can - check your head dude.

"brainwash through symboism and allegory"

How exactly does the brainwashing occur . . . .AND, what are the results of this "brainwashing." Does it make you bark like a dog, do stupid tricks? Does it make you steal? Please be specific.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
The rituals could have been changed, but not in any way that would be allowed to interfere with the final teachings.
This would mean that as long as you can comprehend them from the old degrees then they are valid.

Even that is incorrect. When Pike was appointed by the Supreme Council 33� to revise the Scottish Rite rituals in 1855, he complained in a letter to Bro. Albert Mackey that the rituals didn't teach anything. Pike saw the potential in the degree form, but was not impressed in the least with their pretense to communicate anything but the most mundane knowledge. He said that, by revising the AASR degrees, his task was to make "something out of nothing".

This is what makes the Pike Ritual unique. He eliminated most of the chivalric aspects, and replaced them with overviews of Oriental philosophy. He introduced new degrees which focused on the teachings of the Sufis, Hindus, Kabalists, Buddhists, Taoists, Confucianists, Hermeticists, Zoroastrians, and Alchemists. He then introduced the new 32� which combines all these into a coherent whole. For those who are actually Scottish Rite Masons and have experienced these degrees, it certainly no wonder that they respect Pike's brilliant work on the subject.

From my investigations they haven�t changed significantly in the higher degrees, although I believe it is common to have additional abstracted versions of the Blue Degrees in most lodges to �better educate those who cannot be.�

In general, the opposite is true. The Blue Lodge Degrees, being the basis of Freemasonry, have been received by us from our forebears in their primitive purity. But the higher degrees of the Ancient and Accepted Rite have been through many revisions by the various Supreme Councils who hold jurisdiction over them. Not only have the rituals been changed, but also their placement in the system, i.e., what is now the 30� used to be the 29�, what is now the 32� used to be the 25�, and so on.

It is only your arrogance that allows you to persist in this manner, because you genuinely believe that only you can possibly comprehend these teachings�when you are ready, which you have been told by those who know better that you aren�t�yet�but one day�etc...

That is NOT what Masons tell initiates. The Candidate is told that if he truly wishes to understand Masonry, he need only to study and think, not "wait until you're ready".

It is amazing that you genuinely believe that it is not possible for someone to be able to read this book � like you believe that it is written in some secret and mysterious language, it isn�t.
It is written in fairly simple English with lots of pictures and diagrams and arranged in a manner to make the teachings of the rite clear.
I�m under the impression it is only for the perusal of 32nd Degree Masons, it clearly sates in several places that you can be expelled from the Scottish Rite for letting it fall into the hands of people like myself.

As mentioned a million times over, your book has never been recognized as an authentic monitor of the Rite in the Mother Jurisdiction. Not a century ago, not last week, not today, not tomorrow. It is totally irrelevant in all Jurisdictions except the Northern Jurisdiction USA and England, and even there it is completely outdated, and no longer studied except by historians.

And even for historians, McLenachan's book is not top priority. The first version of Pike's revised ritual was published under the title of "The Magnum Opus", and the Cerneau version of the rituals was published by Blanchard under the title of "Scotch Rite Masonry Illustrated". These 2 books are far more important than McLenachan's historically because they allow one to compare Pike's first revision to the Cerneau, both of which took precedence over McLenachan's versions based on the French Rite.

Masonic Lite � you�ve outdone yourself with this recent load of tripe.

Once again the rituals contained in �The Book� are post-Albert Pike � McClenachan gives a personal thankyou to the man on page 8 for his assistance.
I told you this before and actually posted the scans of the relevant pages here for you to look at, because you clearly don�t own the book even though you originally claimed to have two (and that McClenachan was English along with other nonsense might I add�)


The supposition that what is now the 29th degree used to be the 30th could be partly correct, because one is a subcomponent of the other and some elements could be moved between the two to make them fit within the new structure that places the 30th degree inside the Consistory rather than the Areopagus for greater security of the final secret, again though this was pre-Pike.

To correct you on the contents of Magnum Opus, I have looked at it but not bought it � it is really only of interest to Pike fan-boys, in effect it is the works in progress that went into Morals & Dogma which I do own and am familiar with.

Oh come now, you�re all of a sudden telling me that the Scotch Rite Illustrated is more significant than �The Book of Ancient Accepted Scottish Rite Freemasonry (1884)� � just read the title and note the author was 33rd Degree Past Grand Master of Ceremonies Of The Supreme Council (This is written on the cover no less.)
What is it with your dyslexic like inability to comprehend precidence � you keep citing incidents from before this date as being reasons why the work is inaccurate?
This may be hard for you to come to terms with but the year 1855 is 29 years before 1884.
If you think I�m lying about this then go ask your mother.

�The Volume now presented to the Masonic public assumes to itself no special originality; but for the apparent want of a complete and systematic hand-book for the assistance and instruction of those essaying the higher walks of Masonry, in the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, would seem to justify the humble ambition which the collator of this volume has attempted.� etc�


Brainwashing incidentally is used to make people do what you want them to by making them believe they want it for themselves, like charging a machine-gun nest or breaking into a private residence to vandalise a toilet.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Once again the rituals contained in �The Book� are post-Albert Pike � McClenachan gives a personal thankyou to the man on page 8 for his assistance.

This is precisely an example of your delusion. There is no "post Pike", and is of your pseudo-scholarly elaborations on your beloved book amount to squat.

The fact that McLenachan tipped his hat to Pike is irrelevant. Pike was Grand Commander of the Southern Jurisdiction, not the Northern or English, which were the ones McLenachan belonged to.

The supposition that what is now the 29th degree used to be the 30th could be partly correct,

Yeah, just like my wife might be "partly pregnant".

To correct you on the contents of Magnum Opus,

As everyone here knows by now, the only one who needs correcting is yourself, which has been done again and again, even from non-Masons.
The Magnum Opus is the first revised ritual...in other words, it is a revised form of the rituals McLenachan wrote about, and served as the basis of the Degree rituals of today.

Oh come now, you�re all of a sudden telling me that the Scotch Rite Illustrated is more significant than �The Book of Ancient Accepted Scottish Rite Freemasonry (1884)�

No, I'm not "all of a sudden" telling you this, we've been telling you this for about a year now. The Blanchard work is of more importance because its ritual were used by more people than those written about by McLenachan, and it was the Cerneau ritual that induced the Northern Council to revise, as Pike was already doing in the Southern.

� just read the title and note the author was 33rd Degree Past Grand Master of Ceremonies Of The Supreme Council (This is written on the cover no less.)

I guess the only logical question is "So what?" Am I supposed to be impressed?

What is it with your dyslexic like inability to comprehend precidence � you keep citing incidents from before this date as being reasons why the work is inaccurate?
This may be hard for you to come to terms with but the year 1855 is 29 years before 1884.

I've never seen anyone so confused in all my life as you, even though many here have explained this to you. The date on our book doesn't have anything to do with anything. McLenachan monitored the Rite as it had been in the Northern Jurisdiction and England before revision, and published it, as did Pike with the rituals of the Southern Jurisdiction; I don't understand why this confuses you.

Brainwashing incidentally is used to make people do what you want them to by making them believe they want it for themselves, like charging a machine-gun nest or breaking into a private residence to vandalise a toilet.

Or by trying to convince people on the Internet that you're some sort of expert on a subject you obviously know nothing about in order to gain some deluded "conspiracy theorist" followers?

Good luck!