Rational proofs that God exists/does not exist

I would like to hear everyone on ATS, their rational proofs for the existence/non-existence of God, via REASON AND LOGIC ONLY, I do not want any proofs from any holy books or scriptures because then there will be mayhem every where. I want to hear arguments for/against the existence of God/gods only using reason. If you are all unaware I am playing devil's advocate and I am sure there are plenty of people who are both religious and irreligious on this site, so I would like to know why everyone believes what they believe. I hope nobody takes offense to this post, I just want to keep this post very neutral and without any bias. Cheers!

I'll play.

God doesn't exist.

The Bible is FULL of events allegedly caused by God. Why does nothing of this nature happen today?

Oh wait, these things do still happen. We're intelligent enough now to see the NATURAL causes behind events though.

It takes more faith to believe everything happened by coincidence then to believe everything happened by divine power

I can ask the same question. prove god did not have an acting hand in the matter.

You are to put a loose term on it, flogging a dead horse.
But If I were to offer you my core beliefs in a nutshell..

I would say that I believe in an unimaginable amount of life
in our Universe. The huge probability of many more Universes beyond our own.
I believe in spiritual entities, forces and beings of diversity we could not even comprehend.

In other words I am open to any possibility.
I don't claim to know what I am talking about and I certainly don't claim to have the answers.
Everyone has their own questions that need to be answered in their own way.

No archaic book is going to help me along MY spiritual path.

Good one, the fact that things still occur very similar to what may have occurred thousands of years ago with natural explanations, however one thing still remains, I'm gonna play devils advocate for this one, but doesn't something not existing still fall within the domains of infinity? =D

God does not exist and religion is not real. We all have faith, naturally, and it was based off that faith that someone came up with a religion. None of it makes any sense and none of it has any evidence to support it. All we can really do is be optimistic about what happens when we die. We dont have to pretend there's a big man to give us everything we love when we die to make us feel better.

reply to post by Backslider

so when God sends plagues in the old testament, and science shows how these plagues can happen naturally, how does that prove that God didnt send plagues? what you said doesnt make sense, but it does show emotion. because you dont believe' therefore it doesnt exist?

reply to post by camaro68ss


The idea of God existing/non-existing falls within the domain of existing things.

reply to post by faint1993


As Devil's advocate, if someone put a gun to your head right now, what would be the first thought in your head?

i dont belive in god, thats not to say i dont belive their is somthing like a higer power to us humans

i really hope we dont just die and thats it cause it makes all we do in this life purpousless

but the bible and any other book like it, are nothing but great fictional stories made to give people moral standing and to try and make us affraid that if we dont follow them we will burn in hell.

reply to post by faint1993


if you change we to I in your statement, then you have said something that makes sense. you cant speak with authority for anyone, other than yourself. just because there are a few outspoken people on ats that dont believe, doesnt mean there isnt hundreds that do believe, but dont want to participate in pointless topics such as this.

reply to post by TylerDurden2U


The act of "sending the 10 plagues" showing God's anger is a human attribution to God. I call that anthropomorphism and we confine God to space and time.

reply to post by Unvarnished


Well, its hard to say without actually being in that situation. But I imagine I would be thinking "Please dont shoot the gun". Based on the bible, I'm a sinner and will be going to Hell, regardless of how good of a person I am. And that is only because I have denied the holy spirit. According to the Bible, its unforgivable. So, if there is a Heaven and Hell as the Bible suggests, I have to go to Hell no matter what. So when a gun is put to my head, praying is not gonna do anything.

I dont believe there is a God, Heaven, or Hell, and thats why I think praying doesnt do anything. But when you add the above information, then there is definitely no reason to pray. I can only hope that theres something after this life other then Hell or nothingness.

Originally posted by TylerDurden2U
reply to post by Backslider

 

so when God sends plagues in the old testament, and science shows how these plagues can happen naturally, how does that prove that God didnt send plagues? what you said doesnt make sense, but it does show emotion. because you dont believe' therefore it doesnt exist?

You are ignoring the blatantly obvious fact that "God" "sent these plagues" because ancient man didn't understand that these plagues were caused by bacteria or viruses.

You're correct, disease still occur today. It's just that we can trace them back to their true origins with good old fashioned science.

What I said makes perfect sense.

God served two purposes:
1: Scapegoat for phenomena that couldn't be explained naturally due to scientific ignorance.
2: To give power to those who held positions of authority in various religious settings - ie, religion = government.

reply to post by gremlin2011


OR, there is a fouth dimension, a fraction of a mm in front of you and you could fall into it at any given moment! where do you think the stories come from? every civilization in time has a hell, it couldnt be just one guy who made up a story to sell books!

reply to post by TylerDurden2U


Change taken!

reply to post by Unvarnished


I had posted this elsewhere, but this is good for here too:

The universe is not self-created.

A thing cannot create itself. Whatever is non-existent is incapable of doing anything, much less allegedly "create itself". The action itself is dependent upon the existence of that thing in the first place. Furthermore, to claim, for instance, that the universe created itself, entails two contradictions simultaneously. It would be like claiming that the universe existed before and after itself to create itself. This also breaks the Law of Non-Contradiction, which is "the basic law of logic which states that it is not possible for something to be and not be at the same time" Law of Non-Contradiction

III) The universe is not beginning-less..What if someone told you "I will give you this dollar after an infinite amount of time". Will you ever receive this dollar? No. Likewise, if an infinite amount of time preceded the present, will it ever be traversed? No. The claim entails that an infinite amount of time can be traversable - which is impossible. In other words, an explanation:

Premise A: We exist here today.

Premise B: Before we existed there were a series of events, one after another leading up to our existence today. (The passing of such a series of events is what we call time, and measure in minutes, days, weeks and years.)

If one accepts Premise A, then one must also accept that the series of events in premise B must have a beginning. This must be, because if someone claims that an eternal amount of events had to be concluded before his existence, then he is saying that eternity came to an end, which is a contradiction in terms. It is like if someone said “this car will only get to its destination after its wheels have spun infinitely many times,” and then claimed that the car arrived at its destination. It is clear, however, that the car could never have gotten to its destination if an infinite number of spins was the condition for its arrival.

Those who claim that the world has no beginning are in fact saying that it is a prerequisite for tomorrow to arrive that an infinite number of events first take place. This is impossible, because infinity cannot end. Clearly then, the number of events that precedes our existence must have a limit.

In addition, since it is necessarily true that this series of events has a beginning, then it must also be that before this beginning there were no series of events (defined as anything with a beginning). If someone claimed otherwise, then they would end up with the same contradiction (saying that infinity came to an end). Accordingly, the claim that the world was created by random events is irrational.

Rather, there must be a Creator that gave the series of events existence, since it was nonexistent before it began. Moreover, since it is impossible for there to be any events before the existence of this series, then it must also be that the Creator is not attributed with events, i.e. with any attribute or action that has a beginning. This again means that the Creator does not resemble His creation, since all created attributes must have a beginning. Actually, having a beginning and being a creation is the same thing. This is because to create is to bring into existence, and everything with a beginning must have been brought into existence.

We know from the above, by mathematical precision and logical necessity, that the Creator exists and does not resemble His creation. From the fact that the world has a beginning, we have proven that it must have a creator. The name of this creator is Allah in Arabic. If someone asks, “Who created Allah?” we say Allah does not have a creator, and does not need one since God has no beginning. If someone then asks, “how can you accept that Allah has no beginning, while you do not accept that the world has no beginning?” The answer is that we have shown that the world has a beginning based on the fact that it changes (changes are events). We do not believe, however, that Allah changes. Rather, we believe The Creator is One, and doesn’t change and has no beginning.

The fact that Allah does not resemble the creations can also be known by saying that since The Creator's existence must be (as shown above), then it cannot also be merely possible (since “must be” and “possible” are incompatible meanings – something cannot be both a must and a possibility at the same time). Therefore, The Creator must be clear of any attribute that belongs to the possible category of things. For example, weakness, limits, boundaries and needs are attributes that may or may not have existence; their existence depends on them being created; their existence is a possibility, not a must. They need a Creator to specify their limits. We know that we need a Creator, because we know that our own attributes need specification. We know they need specification because they have limits, and limits must be specified. For example, if you pointed at a table in a room and said, “Who made it in that shape?” and someone answered, “No one, it is just there like that eternally!” Would you accept this? Of course not, because we know anything limited needs someone to specify it.

If someone asked: If an event can be defined as an action that has a beginning and giving a series of events existence is an action with a beginning (and if it’s not, then what is it?), then how can one rationally conclude, based on the logic presented above, that the Creator is not attributed with events?

The answer to this is that we did not define events as actions having a beginning, but as “anything that has a beginning.” Actions may have a beginning, namely the actions of creation – as they all share this resemblance, or they may not, namely the actions of Allah.

Allah does not resemble the creations, so He is not an event or attributed with events. This is because to “create” is to “bring into existence,” and all events are therefore by definition created. As Allah’s attributes are not creations, they are not events.

Last but not least, in attempt to confuse, or out of confusion some may ask:

“What if the world’s existence is cyclical?” Our answer to this is that cycles are still one cycle one after another, so they are events. Some may also ask, in an attempt to confuse: “Before Allah created this series of events, was God able to create another series or not?” Our answer to this is that this is a nonsensical question, because what we established was that there must be an event that is first, regardless of the number of series, or the number of worlds preceding the current one. We also established that Allah’s actions are not events, so they are not described with a “before.”

^this was taken from: sunnianswers.wordpress.com...

And just a note...

Due to empiricism not applying to it, it does not necessitate that the thing's existence must be nixed.

Just because something isn't empirical doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I have never seen another person's mind; yet I hesitate not in believing that the people I deal with have minds/intellect. I see that in their speech and behavior--that is, I see the signs of their intelligence, and likewise, when I see the creation, I see the signs for The Creator's Existence.

Nowadays, scientists are able to discover many things because of technological advances. One hundred years ago, some empiricists would say since amoebas aren't observable, they don't exist. To the contrary, in the present day, one can use a microscope and see that it surely exists - such an application of empiricism is flawed.

I think i'll share something about proof and the effect of it. This is from the holy Book it self (The hitchhikers guide)

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It proves you exist, and so therefore, you don't. Q.E.D.."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing."

Originally posted by TylerDurden2U
reply to post by faint1993

 

if you change we to I in your statement, then you have said something that makes sense. you cant speak with authority for anyone, other than yourself. just because there are a few outspoken people on ats that dont believe, doesnt mean there isnt hundreds that do believe, but dont want to participate in pointless topics such as this.

I didnt mean it quite like that. Im sorry if I'm being offensive, because I have no problem with people believing in Religion. Its a good thing to believe in, for the most part. I just think that we are getting to a point that society will start to dismiss religion altogether. Its hard to find elderly Atheists. Little easier to find middle-aged Atheists. And being only seventeen years old, I know that teenagers are split somewhat evenly (More believers than not, I must point out, but its close).

If someone needs more proof that God exists than to simply look at nature, then there's something wrong.