Modern Poverty Includes A.C. and an Xbox

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

Our society is constructed that SOMEONE has to salt the fries and be homeless, it's how our society is made.

If we lived in a society where everyone could be rich, I wouldn't have any dog in the fight for the poor. However we do not live in such a society. If everyone went to school and obtained PHD's we'd still need someone to salt the fries.

This part I entirely agree with, and this is the problem with our education system. We try to raise everyone thinking they can get PhD's and not have to work for a living. We teach all the kids that they can be whatever they want to be. No they can't. It just isn't true, and it gives them a false sense of entitlement. The facts are, we are not all created equal. We have equal opportunity, but we don't have equal skills and talents. I will never be a pro basketball player or a famed artist.

Now, we are getting to the root problems! Some people have to salt the fries, but it is no reason to be homeless, or carry any stigma. Some of the most intelligent people I have known were car mechanics! Not everyone needs to go to college, some people need to learn their father's trade. Not everyone needs to move out and get their own home at 18, some need to stick around and help support the family. Not every family needs to be independent, some need the support of extended family in raising the kids, and taking care of the dishes, and mowing the yard.

If the society could get away from the expectations and stigmas and flat out lies that we tell our kids, then the society could see the benefit of people trying to do what they are good at, and trying to excel in that area! We don't need cookie-cutter education, some kids need to learn to fix cars at age 12, and by 16 they might be experts, and by 21 they might be making more money than their counterparts graduating college!

Some families need to remodel the mother-in-laws quarters, combine resources, and help one another raise up and live better lifestyles by cooperating!

Some political leaders need to tell the hard truths instead of pandering to pollsters.

We're making progress

Now if someone HAS to salt the fries in this society where everyone else is rich, they will be below everyone elses poverty level and need assistance. This is how our society is constructed, we all can't be winners.

I totally agree that our educational system needs to be retooled and rebuilt. It isn't everyones destiny to earn a BA. As you say some are better suited for vocational routes.

If our educational system was as such, I think we will have much less welfare customers. The problem with people isn't that they don't want to work. The problem is they don't want to do work they have no interest in. I talk to inter-city youth in gangs, welfare mothers, everyone. What they will say is that they don't want to work because they can't quite articulate what they're trying to get at. In truth what they don't want is to do work that they have no interest in. They don't want to be slaves, which all of us are who work to pay bills even though we hate to see it as such.

Every child should be tested in elementary and have their skills assessed. Then they should be guided toward what THEY desire.

Many people, even adults, have no idea at the WIDE variety of things they can do for a living. They have no idea that they can convert their hobbies and dreams into money. They need their eyes opened which our schools are not doing.

reply to post by dolphinfan


Then why are so many people poor?

I have at least four good products that would make a fair amount of money, but each needs $5 to $10K to develop, print, create or market.

Money I might have had if we weren't ripped off in the the electric deregulation fiasco, when my electric bill zoomed about 500%, despite our cutting use by 50%, money I never recovered.

Money I might have had if I still had my second and third jobs, but they disappeared in the crap economy.

Money I might have if I hadn't had to liquidate my retirement funds to deal with hard times when my lady lost her leg in an accident.

Money I might have if we had a free market economy and I could sell a product people want, need, and is perfectly safe and harmless: medical pot.

Money I might have if I could liquidate any of the stuff I accumulated during the good times, but now even at give-awy prices, no one buys because there is no money. For instance, I'm selling a weight set for scrap metal because no one will even pay $50 for it. A year ago I bought a new, but older model, flatscreen TV on sale because it was more energy-efficient than my fifteen-year-old model which was incompatible with most of the new equipment and tv formats anyway. Today I couldn't get $75 for it.

My brother had a nice little business til he got a disc broken in his back, now we can't liquidate the remains of his business and must actually pay to downsize. He was recently offered $300 for a safe he paid $5,000 for...it's worth more as scrap metal than it's worth as a safe.

My library of ~1700 books is worth about $200 in today's market, if I could find a buyer, even though technically many of the are worth hundreds by themselves.

The reason is that there is no money, because there aren't any jobs.

The fault lies in the top 1% and those who blindly support them.

Those people didn't make their fortunes creating jobs, they made them by destroying them, and usurping the wealth generated by increased productivity. This is not a matter of debate or subject to interpretation: those are the stubborn, actual facts. The top 1% lacks any sort of genuine vision of the future, have no ambition other than a greater share of the wealth, and tend to stifle as many good products as they create, if not more. They fear any change that brings more people into equality with them because for the most part they know that their wealth is the only thing that distinguishes them: they are, in the end, just people, not that much more talented, intelligent, or better than the poorest of us.

I know whereof I speak: I've been homeless three times in my life and worked my way off the street each time. I've worked construction, shrimping, sales, teaching, dancing, farming, owned a couple of small businesses and am a combat veteran. I have contributed to my society in every way imaginable: I've fed it, protected it, educated it, entertained it, employed it, counseled it, improved it. I've never taken welfare or food stamps, preferring to leave for those who needed it more than I did.

But I look at today's economy know that if faced with homelessness again, I will never be able to do what I've done in the past. I never expect to collect a dime of my Social Security: they keep moving the goalposts and I don't expect the the US to survive as a nation long enough for me to catch up with a moving target.

It won't survive for a myriad of reasons, but the main one is the point of this thread: there are so-called Americans, patriots by their own lights, who would look at me if I go homeless again and think me a lazy, crazy, drug-addicted good-for-nothing who deserves his fate, and not a dime of their oh-so-hard-earned money. They'd rather park their money overseas in tax-exempt accounts than offer aid to people they don't consider fellow citizens because they now lack the wherewithal. They refuse to contribute to the country they take advantage of by actually investing in things that provide their fellow citizens with the jobs necessary for a strong economy. They wouldn't hire me for squat because I'm too old and over-qualified.

The people need jobs, the country's infrastructure needs rebuilt, the Gulf needs cleaned up, there are hundreds of cities and towns that need repair after floods, tornadoes, and other disasters. The needs are there, the jobs created fulfilling those needs would create a boom economy, and yet the top 1% can't see any reason to finance any of it, becuse they are lazy, incompetent and feel entitled to free money. It was their fathers, grandfathers, and great-grandfathers who built the wealth they are frittering away gambling, because they lack the skills to do anything else.

reply to post by DZAG Wright


You're right. There will still be a disparity in wealth, but perhaps the disparity will be less apparent. Ideally, I think we need as large of a middle class as possible, and historically the middle class has taken the vocational route. We need to grow the middle class and shrink the top and bottom. We need to rebuild the Bell Curve of wealth distribution.

There will still be those with PhD's, and those that hit it big on a start-up business. There will still be those that refuse to work, or those that can only accomplish menial tasks, but hopefully there will be a whole bunch of regular folks right in the middle!

That is why I put in that last statement. The only way to get from here to there, is to have some politicians with the intestinal fortitude to tell us the truth. The truth is, we won't all get rich. The truth is, we won't all do well in college. The truth is, we can't all go buy our own homes. But, if we can acknowledge that, and then we can maximize the opportunites that present themselves, then we can all live very comfortable lifestyles!

reply to post by dolphinfan


Star for you.
Yes, its a two way street of dependency...I simply think we need to put out the fire burning the house before we tend to the mice problem...(fire being corporate welfare...etc)

When that is being truely tackled and eliminated, then I will take more seriously the "concern" raised about abuse of the net...until then, I see such discussions as a distraction pushed on the people to hate our feet verses the even look at the ceiling of spikes the elite have put a half inch above our head.

fixing the welfare system and such will constitute a drop in the bucket in regards to our spending...you could house everyone in the US, with air conditioning, and a fairly decent computer and still not hit the losses our corporate welfare structure gives out every bloody year...our prioritys are seriously screwed up

best country my arse.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

You're right. There will still be a disparity in wealth, but perhaps the disparity will be less apparent. Ideally, I think we need as large of a middle class as possible, and historically the middle class has taken the vocational route. We need to grow the middle class and shrink the top and bottom. We need to rebuild the Bell Curve of wealth distribution.

Welcome to liberalism 101...

So, now the question is, how to do that...not sure cutting the poor off of food stamps because they have a old playstation will somehow accomplish that..however, tariffs, progressive tax rate, and other such liberal ideas at least conceptually deals with that aspect.

Yay can I play too? Let's see.... last year my family was 50% below poverty level. Sounds fun, eh? Anywho let me go down the list here and see what we have:

4 TV's; 1 was new from 2007 when we made the most money in our lives, $40,000 for a family of 4. It was great. 2 were from friends/neighbors, and 1 is almost 25 years old. An antique.

We went over a year without cable and finally got it back this April after several months of two people working. It was not a big deal to me not having cable but everyone else wanted it.

Ah I do not have a cell phone. Everyone else in my family has cell phones from Sprint with nothing but phone calls, they are a couple years old but Spring allows you to get a new one every 2 years or so. The contract is from when we first went with Sprint back in 2000 or 2002.

We have one of them fancy music playing machines in our home. A record player, cassette player, and am/fm stereo that was a gift from back in 2003.

Yep I have a PC, two actually. One was given to us by a friend for a really cheap price because he bought a new one and with the money I saved up this year plus some money from the student loans I got (which mostly went to bills) I was able to afford a $400 computer so that I can continue going to school so as to make something of my life.

Internet service. Check. But it was not until last year that we got rid of dial-up for the only other choice we had for the location of our home, a hot spot by Sprint.

The PS2 I have is from our 'rich days' back in the early 2000's and my PS3 (with only 4 games so far) was a gift from my grandparents.

I have not been to the movies since Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, ride a bicycle to work down a road where people think it is funny to swurve at you while you are riding in the grass during a Florida thunderstorm, and do not have brand name anything.

Plus I have only bought 1 new pair of clothes since 2008.

Oh yeah we rich! We livin' la vida loca!

And how do we afford all these luxuries? Well we would have been evicted several times over had it not been for quite possibly the best landlord in the country. He let us pay our rent (which we always did) 3 or even 4 months late only on a promise that we would and we always did. Never once did he charge us a late charge. Now so long as I mow the lawns of his around here we get $150 off each month. Plus he never once has raised our monthly rent since we moved here in March '04.

Originally posted by dolphinfan
Some interesting data about the "poor" in America. Depite the news reports of America's poor living in shanty towns and tent cities, the reality is far different.

"Data from the Department of Energy and other agencies show that the average poor family, as defined by Census officials:

● Lives in a home that is in good repair, not crowded, and equipped with air conditioning, clothes washer and dryer, and cable or satellite TV service.

● Prepares meals in a kitchen with a refrigerator, coffee maker and microwave as well as oven and stove.

● Enjoys two color TVs, a DVD player, VCR and — if children are there — an Xbox, PlayStation, or other video game system.

● Had enough money in the past year to meet essential needs, including adequate food and medical care."

www.heritage.org...

A few relevant statistics percentage of "poor" folks who have various items

65.1% have more than one TV - I had both my TUBE TVs given to me
63%.7 have cable or satellite TV - I have limited
54.5 have a cell phone - Given to me and paid for by my mom
49.3 have a non-portable stereo - Also GIVEN to me
38% have a PC - saved up for 5 months to buy a used Dell for $250
29.3% have internet service - Wifi is free these days...
29.3% have a video gaming system - All GIVEN to my daughter by a coworker

Lets not suggest that folks are not having difficulty maintaining their lifestyle during these economic hard times.

Lets stop with the nonsense that someone with two TVs, cable TV and video games is poor. These are the folks who receive tax payer subsidies, what the left calls a "safety net".

I doubt that most tax payers would consider satellite TVs and cell phones vital components of the social safety net. Most would consider food, medical care, clothes and housing a safety net.

Its time to call what the current debate is all about and that is about redistributionism and socialism. Is it any wonder that the minority of folks who pay the taxes in this country don't want to pay more?

Its about time we had an honest discussion about what the objectives of our social policy are really all about because the current one, the one we have employeed since the Great Society in the 60s has been plain old socialism. The debate today is all about how far we want to extend it.

edit on 19-7-2011 by dolphinfan because: (no reason given)

I have all of those things and I consider myself poor... and they were all GIVEN to me by my relatives. I do not however go out and buy brand new games the day they come out, go to movies on their release date (or ever unless it's paid for), drive a brand new car, have the best cell phone gadget, or have the newest and greatest LCD 3D TVs.

BUT I'm damn sure most of you hypocrites do...

Just because some people have these things they can still be considered poor...

I barely get by and if it weren't for the help of my mom I'd be SOL, and I don't wish that on anyone.

How about the fat cats who cheat their opposition into getting what they want accomplished so the drains on society, that we are, can continue being the low life's of YOUR world... No, no, no... No blame on them for they are just expressing free enterprise... (See Jamaica)

GDP rises as wages call stale mate...

Yeah it's pretty silly. Real poor people struggle to eat. Those who feel they're impoverished are just angry because they can't get the PS game they want. They can't afford to insure their car and get season tickets to Citi-Field so they equate it with struggling. It makes me sick.

reply to post by dolphinfan


My husband corresponds with many other collectors around the world, one american guy expressed that he would have liked to buy something (I don't know what it was, some jet fighter stuff) but said he was poor and living in a trailer, on welfare, etc. My husband decided to ask his other friends and they all pitched in a bunch of money to buy this thign and send it to him, without telling him they paid for it (and it was expensive).

A few months later he sent us a picture of his new paint job on his Humvee, parked in front of his trailer.

My husband was so disgusted, he won't even talk to this guy anymore.

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by strafgod

 

Don't look for small businesses to add "extra shifts" anytime soon. All you social entitlement proponents who were all over the new healthcare law are to thank for this. They will work the hell out of what they have so they don't have to hire new and face the new taxes that come with the new law.

I'm so sick and tired of the have-nots whining about spreading the wealth. Tough s**t! Make your OWN money and leave mine alone! Why should I work hard, pay for my own education so I can make more just so some lazy ass can demand they are entitled to some of it because they are too lazy to do the same? Sorry, but that dog don't hunt! You can call me whatever you want, but I earn my money and I intend to keep it! I don't give to charity unless 100% goes to the intended recipient. I have bought food for homeless people because giving them cash promotes drug/alcohol consumption and NOT nutrition. You want the state to take care of you then move to another country like Cuba and have at it!

+100%

reply to post by Cuervo


Nice comeback...

Glad to see I wasn't the only one appalled at this nonsense... But what do you expect from the ones who created this problem?

$35K a year would be awesome and I couldn't ask for more... or need it... But I make less than $22K a year as a single father raising a 6 yr old daughter. Like I said they need to walk in our shoes to understand instead of hiding behind their Audi's and BMW's when they log out...

reply to post by LoneGunMan
That picture would paint something like places in Africa. And they are reaping what they have sewed. The world was created by God, and he directed what behavior would please or displease him, and often times with those who had abandoned all relationship with Him, he let go on their own to fend for themselves and bear the responcibility for their behavior and actions. Hence you have an epedemic of aids, fragmented families from fathers who live hedonistically. Many many many generations ago they chose a path and followed it to it's end, and here they are. No planning, no building a society. No rules has gotten them sheer barberism. The Mayans and their canibalism and sacrifice, all vile in the site of the Lord, thuss their demise. think what you want, we are great in terms of poverty because we have worked and been a Christian Nation, thats what made the United States. People certainly don't need all those things and would be far better off without most, but they are as everyday as cardboard boxes or tv's and radios. There are so many, they spill into everybodys life without even asking.

reply to post by sligtlyskeptical


Yeah and the wealthy GET the BIGGEST tax break in HISTORY...

Life is so fair...

BELIEVE THE HYPE!!!

The wealthy make sure they stay wealthy and hire people to maintain that no one else does. Look into the docs by Jamie Johnson who stood up and let people know the back story.

Originally posted by Plotus
reply to post by LoneGunMan

 

That picture would paint something like places in Africa. And they are reaping what they have sewed. The world was created by God, and he directed what behavior would please or displease him, and often times with those who had abandoned all relationship with Him, he let go on their own to fend for themselves and bear the responcibility for their behavior and actions. Hence you have an epedemic of aids, fragmented families from fathers who live hedonistically.

I don't know what God you worship but he sounds like an ass. The way you use divine right to justify your cruel outlook on people who suffer due to no fault of their own makes me vomit a bit in my mouth.

You want to know why Africa is the way they are? You only need to look as far as Europe and the industrial revolution. It certainly wasn't because they "turned their back on god". I would bet my car that the average villager in sub-Sahara Africa lives a more pious and pure life, deserving of God's mercy, than you ever will.

reply to post by dolphinfan


Incidently, Dolphinfan, are you This guy
Just wondering if this is your wording, or if your just plagurising others stuff.

I hate it when the wingers get a new chain e-mail..it shows up all over the place.

now comes the part where we try and figure out if OPs actually added anything, or if he is simply some sort of webbot neocon auto-poster.

actually, I can't be bothered.

reply to post by SmArTbEaTz


Well, unfortunately some of us do not have BMW's. I am middle class. I am not wealthy by any stretch, but I do watch my money. I have been through more recessions than a lot of you on this board. I have had to work 3 jobs at a time just to survive. Back in my younger days, minimum wage was $3.85 an hour. Try living on that and only working 32 hours a week! Yet I did it. I owned a mobile home and two cars. All paid for. I know where I come from and never forget. My views stem from what I have experienced in my life. Living in section 8 housing growing up, living in areas where welfare and crime was rampant. It's easy to sit behind a screen and generalize people...I know because I do it as well. But I will remain steadfast in my conviction that the majority of the poor do not have the conviction nor the grit to make more of themselves.

Now for those working poor on this board, some ideas for making cash. I still use these when I want something I don't want to raid my savings to get. Buy and sell on ebay and craigslist. Offer to clean out garages and attics for free. You would be amazed at some of the stuff people are willing to get rid of that fetch a fair amount of cash. I have picked up free furniture on craigslist only to sell it 3 weeks later at a yard sale. The bonus is no taxes! Cash money! It's amazing what you can sell at a yard sale that if advertized people wouldn't buy. They assume it's a yard sale so the stuff is cheap. I had one back in early spring and made over $1k in one day! Use your imagination and you can make money.

Reminds me of the "dont fret over expensive food, ipads got cheaper" quote. An Xbox and AC are one off expenses even if the AC eats more power. An xbox? Really? Its geared towards children. Its not supposed to be a trophy item. You can pic one up for 150 Dollar new. How much health coverage does 150 Dollar a month buy you? How much gas is 150 dollar a month? How much rent food etc. ?

You can very well be poor and own an average TV and an xbox with pirated games. Or to put it another way, if you sell your Surround system, your xbox your tv and your iPad, how long will that keep you going? 2 weeks? 3?

I work with many people who would qualify in the poverty level. It's amazing all they have, but they are mostly smart, and can wheel and deal with the best of them. They know all the second hand stores to shop, where to get free stuff (they love free stuff, and there is an abundance of it, eg their clothes are name brand; why buy clothes?).

In tapping into resources that are free, or almost free, (food, housing, medical), they can then use their own income for the things they really want...like tv's and internet. (They have to pay for internet services, but the computer would have been somebody's else's cast-off, which still works).

But I'm happy for them. I'm happy they are smart enough to maintain decents lives for themselves, and that my community, which is mostly affluent, has enough left over to share, and do so gladly.

Don't misunderstand, they are legitimately unable to work. Keeping their lives going semi-comfortably is their work.

eta: Not like anybody's reading this post, but I thought I would add the big problem now is GAS. I know people who can't keep doctor's appointments because they can't afford the gas. Or the neighbor who was driving them and charged them 10.00 now wants 20.00. People who can't take their kids to their appointments because they simply don't have a way. Kinda sucks.

ETA again: I posted on this thread before I realized how hateful many of you are. Wish I had not bothered, now.

Check us out!

Here we are talking about the 'non-plight' of the poor.

Are the poor a drain on society? Do the poor never amount to anything other than a hole into which we pour our money (and apparent hatred)? Of course, the poor must want to be poor since it's a life worth living. The unemployed must be lazy or too proud because there's plenty of work available (I suppose). The homeless must be degenerates because ... well.... just look at them!

And yet, the rich, those people with a net worth of $100,000,000 or more..., they certainly 'earned' their wealth and would be totally crippled by having anything above that amount taxed more aggressively.

Let's face it folks, the 5% are more important than the other 95%. We are told they 'make' jobs. (Except for now, because they don't know what to expect).... all the while complaining that the wretched poor are ruining things for the country... and desperately employing every means of influence to maintain their freedom to exploit capitalistic opportunities....

Amazing.

Go back in this thread and replace the word "poor" with any racial group and tell me what you see.

Every anecdote, every 'example' offered seems intent on solidifying the notion that somehow those people who are the least politically relevant, who have the least capability to 'be heard', should be rightfully maligned, marginalized, and otherwise be labelled as undesirable.

Some think that because they engage in charity, or because they 'work' for a living, their opinion about the poor is especially valid. Some think that because 'they were poor once' that they can relate to, or speak for poor people.

Sorry, the human experience is not one of generalized truth. Inequity is smiled upon by the powerful who never have to worry about such trivial things as 'tomorrow' ... Inequity is tolerated by those who never feel its sting.

There is no black and white in this argument, everyone's life is a unique story unto itself; but those who promote the idea that wealth is a measure of personal merit definitely like it to be looked at that way.

If you are poor, you must suck. If you are comfortable, you are 'better.' And don't dare make use of the tools society put in place to maintain a better standard of living for all.... that's just selfish. And obviously (if not ironically) the idea being spread is that the poor are 'getting away with something.' (As if the obscenely wealthy aren't or don't.)

This world we have created for ourselves seems to be blossoming into exactly the least promising place for those who start life at home plate. While those who start on third base demand special treatment because its as if they had hit a triple.

It is disheartening to think that anyone could generalize about people, and with that freedom, choose to do so about people who are displaced, voiceless, or simply desperate souls who have lost their way.

As trillions are funneled away from us for the purposes of destruction and high-stakes gambling; the poor are relegated to the status of burden.... this all seems familiar....

My ..my..my...
How easy it has become to polarize such weak people.
First it was Democrats and Republicans.
Now they have you going at each other over wealth.
The time draws near when the ignorant hate of this country will spill into the streets.
Then they will declare Martial Law AND YOU WILL BE COMPLETELY BEATEN!
WAKE UP!