Modern Poverty Includes A.C. and an Xbox

reply to post by Janky Red


Sure am puffing. Damn proud of what I did. A high school drop out as well. By all accounts I should be a lefty, but I'm not. I was taught old school. You get out of life what you put into it. I believe that in America your success is limited by you and no one else. I have owned several businesses. I started them all on a dime, no banks. Sold most of them. If a poor person works hard, but gets nowhere, then maybe they need to look at another career or at how they manage their finances. Yes there are always exceptions and I do realize that. However, by and large through personal experiences over the last 30 years, the majority of welfare recipients are lazy and looking for a handout. All you have to do is go to a major city and people watch. Doesn't take long to see the working poor and the career welfare recipient.

Good night. This thread has really tested me, and that is what I come here for, constant gut checks, you know?

Now, let's start from the beginning of our current social welfare structure. As ExPostFacto, and Haarvik said, the system is designed incorrectly from the foundation, and here is a great synopsis of that wrong beginning.
Ex points out what it is like today, and Haarvik illustrates perfectly what this attitude has produced in those we commonly think it is for. How else could he feel? It is not to help the poor. Poor people are crushed by the welfare system, and don't have a way out. They are not supposed to. It is not primarily for them now.

This article also speaks to the employer aspect, absolutely dead-on and simple.

findarticles.com...

Extrapolate those attitudes, and the resulting decisions, people it with the typical social worker's attitude, surprisingly similar to the women who founded this system, not nice women, to be sure. Maybe the very first ones, but IMO, they were just rabid, men-hating feminists, making sure their agenda had legs for the future. They certainly were not friendly to the women they were "helping" by not respecting them as earners.

Any woman, in particular, who has worked her way out of the system, any man, for that matter, these days, can see how it is not built for the poor.

Finally, let's look at how welfare is portrayed today. My friend, while doing his pre-law undergrad work, showed me a page out of one of his textbooks. It stated that welfare is not for the poor, but to ensure the stability of the middle-class, and keep them from being impoverished during the inevitable times of financial hardship. This proves that the "Ones Who Decide" are well aware that most folks who are working and being productive, socially-acceptable citizens, do not earn enough to keep what they have if even one ordinary thing goes wrong.

Enter insurance. The middle-class is numerous, likes and needs stability, and as a group, can be counted on like a commodity to buy things, and a quantifiable amount to boot, part of which can be ensured by fixing rent and housing values, gas prices, etc. Right down to tariffs on the car parts one needs to keep their car running and thus keep their job. Of course this can upset one's financial apple-cart, being that most of us can't absorb these extra costs. That is why welfare is here now, in the words of the public education system, anyway.

Examine the people that started it, and then decide who is poor, what that means, and what you think?

Originally posted by ghondon

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by dolphinfan

What a ridiculous article. The obvious intent (from Heritage Foundation, no less) is to make "haaaard wurkin' non-welfare" people think that all of these people are leaching off the government and are not working.

Almost all of those people are hardworking and half the people that will get steamed towards the "poor" people reading this are poor themselves and just don't know it. Poverty line for a single person is $35,000 by most standards. There are a lot of "poor" people who don't even know they are poor. It's not their fault that people like Heritage Foundation are whining on their behalf.

It detracts from the very real problem of a large portion of American society who truly does struggle day to day in order to pay electricity and feed their families. This article is a work of obvious propaganda to foster a class-war. Disgusting.

edit on 19-7-2011 by Cuervo because: deleted long quote

Have you been to welfare neighboorhoods? Maybe inner city philadelphia? Hard working eh I really truly think you should do some research on this I have met at least 100 people on welfare between my current residence and inner city philly and not one of them I repeat not on them was hardworking they all just wait for there welfare checks to roll in to party and do more drugs. While DOING ABSOLUTLY NOTHING TO BETTER THEMSELVES.

Yes. I've worked in non-profits (board member) and my wife has, as well. We have been on both sides of the equation. I believe I've done more "research" than most are willing to do. To be blunt, I don't believe you. You are grossly exaggerating. I can say "I know at least 100 people who walk 50 miles a day to work in the tar mines to feed their kids and sick granny" but it would be a lie.

The truth is that they are normal people who work just as hard as anybody else. Hard work does not equal wealth. That has not been the case since the industrial revolution.

Because you know irresponsible people who are poor doesn't mean they are poor because they are irresponsible. I know several wealthy people who are drug addicts and party all the time. By your rationale, that means the key to success would be to do drugs and party since rich people do that too.

Want to bet dolphinfan runs a business that depends upon government handouts one way or another?

That the main complaint is that those poor people are getting money that would go to him if they didn't get as much?

All those stereotypes about the rich poor have been around for forty or fifty years, they get renewed and refurbished with every new proposed program. However, they are always anecdotal: never any real proof. I'ts like the picture of the guy with the i-phone and Michele Obama. It's defined as a supposedly poor person with excessive stuff, but no evidence is offered that supports the interpretation., just a claim. It could just as easily be a volunteer or staff person.

Sadly the sociopaths are taking, have taken over.

I suppose I could write an article that states that 79% of business owners defraud their their customers, cheat on taxes, use substandard materials, lie about the efficacy of their products, cheat their employees, and beat their wives and kids with just as much veracity as the Heritage article.

Only sociopaths can look at the situation in the US today and say that the poor are to blame for their plight.

Dolphinfan, why don't you hire more people, or pay the ones you have better? Then the taxes they pay will reduce your burden, and the welfare they won't need is off your back. At least they will be doing something productive, right?

But then, you're probably in one of the parasite businesses that don't actually produce a tangible product, like finance, stockbroker, banking, consulting, etc.

The problem with this country isn't the poor: it is the 1%. They have too much wealth locked up in non-productive gambling ventures for short-term profits. They refuse to invest in theri own country because that isn't profitable enough for them, despite the fact that they don't need a penny more, they just want it. They are traitors, willing to destroy the country for their private profit.

In a different world they would be considered mass murderers and be held accountable for it. If you take so much that others die because you've created the conditions that led to their death, then you are responsible. Of course, for the rich, personal responsibility stops at the poverty level. They completely reject the notion of personal responsibility when it comes to themselves.

reply to post by Janky Red


What I want is simple.

Its not a level of income/net worth that folks should be given to be considered in poverty. I don't care if you triple the poverty level.

Its not a reduction in the programs available to the poor, how ever you define them

It is an honest articulation of what the US society provides in terms of lifestyle for those we consider to be poor. It is defining it for what it is, inclusive of the value of all benefits received, data on material assets owned by the poor. It is an honest definition of what it truly means to be poor as defined by the availability of government programs and assistance.

Why do I want it? Because I think there are legitimately poor people who need assistance and they being robbed by many who don't who receive program benefits and thus erode the resources available to assist the truly needy. These are the same folks who are on a daily basis ripping off the tax payer via their sloth and yes, greed. Someone who is driving a $30K car home to his home to play x-box on his 50 inch flat screen TV who is receiving any form of government assistance is guilty of sloth. They are taking advantage of both the truly needy and the taxpayer. They are a pox on society.

You mention Jesus above. Remember that sloth is one of the 7 deadly sins. As you spout the need for Christian charity, you may want to consider the obligations of those who receive that charity.

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by ghondon

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by dolphinfan

What a ridiculous article. The obvious intent (from Heritage Foundation, no less) is to make "haaaard wurkin' non-welfare" people think that all of these people are leaching off the government and are not working.

Almost all of those people are hardworking and half the people that will get steamed towards the "poor" people reading this are poor themselves and just don't know it. Poverty line for a single person is $35,000 by most standards. There are a lot of "poor" people who don't even know they are poor. It's not their fault that people like Heritage Foundation are whining on their behalf.

It detracts from the very real problem of a large portion of American society who truly does struggle day to day in order to pay electricity and feed their families. This article is a work of obvious propaganda to foster a class-war. Disgusting.

edit on 19-7-2011 by Cuervo because: deleted long quote

Have you been to welfare neighboorhoods? Maybe inner city philadelphia? Hard working eh I really truly think you should do some research on this I have met at least 100 people on welfare between my current residence and inner city philly and not one of them I repeat not on them was hardworking they all just wait for there welfare checks to roll in to party and do more drugs. While DOING ABSOLUTLY NOTHING TO BETTER THEMSELVES.

Yes. I've worked in non-profits (board member) and my wife has, as well. We have been on both sides of the equation. I believe I've done more "research" than most are willing to do. To be blunt, I don't believe you. You are grossly exaggerating. I can say "I know at least 100 people who walk 50 miles a day to work in the tar mines to feed their kids and sick granny" but it would be a lie.

The truth is that they are normal people who work just as hard as anybody else. Hard work does not equal wealth. That has not been the case since the industrial revolution.

Because you know irresponsible people who are poor doesn't mean they are poor because they are irresponsible. I know several wealthy people who are drug addicts and party all the time. By your rationale, that means the key to success would be to do drugs and party since rich people do that too.

Yet again i retort head to NE philly and west philly be a merchant on the street selling goods i was a business to business sales man come back and talk to me then. Droves of welfare abusers.......


PS im under exagerting as i talked to probably 25 of them a day for months. I guess if you consider gridning levels out in video games hard work then they are hard workers.

All you bleeding hearts forget one important factor. Without this capitalist society, this country and it's bounty would not exist. The foundation of our country is the basis for what you have now. If you are so discontented and disgusted with those of us who adhere to those founding principals, you are my friend more than welcome to LEAVE MY COUNTRY!

reply to post by Janky Red


And some are poor because they went on Uncle Sam's World Tour and came back with a knee that doesn't quite work right, dropping them from a $47,000 salary (when medical/dental benefits are taken into account), down to $250 a month and a $9 an hour part time job.

Now, people are trying to claw their way out just like the guy who started the HVAC business. (I'm not actually sure I quoted who I wanted to quote, just roll with it.). For instance, the guy described above, a.k.a. me. Does that mean that in the mean time, I shouldn't have accepted unemployment before my part time job? I shouldn''t be allowed to say "Man it sucks making all of $900 a month, and having to rely on the kindness of others for a lot of things."

There's a lot of things I could sell, sure. And some of it would make a pretty penny most likely. But if I sell my reliable vehicle, how do I get to work (public transportation is a joke where I live)?

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean people aren't trying.

reply to post by dolphinfan

HOW DARE YOU.

Poverty and wealth are relative to their time and society.

The rich didn't have anywhere to go to the bathroom in the middle ages, so they went from castle to castle filling them with human waste. Per this article.
cafehayek.com...

In 1995 almost 800 people died from having no Air Conditioning.
www.press.uchicago.edu...

Why don't you go put one of your spawn outside today on some nice black pavement and leave IT there.

reply to post by dolphinfan


i couldnt agree more...

my friend was telling me,
while i was driving my truck (not to brag but it is pretty nice),
that america is worse now, and even more poor, right now, than in the depression..
i thought...
really? i mean, here i am, smoking pot (that cost money), driving my nice truck, listening to my system, and having a good time in general, and this is worse than then?
hell no.

Originally posted by ghondon

Originally posted by dolphinfan
reply to post by LoneGunMan

 

Making assumptions and basing policy on those assumptions is an extremely slippery slope. All rich folks were not crooks in the same manner that all great atheletes are not taking juice.

Improve laws that root out corruption if thats the issue, but based on the Obama class warfare schemes, the rich are not folks like Warren Buffett or the Kennedys. The rich are folks like Joe Blow who owns the plumbing supply store down the street and declares all of his business income as personal income.

Go ahead and take all the money from everyone who has more than $500M and see where your at. Not too hard to find that place because its where you are right now.

The problem is institutionalized entitlement. Lets all realize that many of the "poor" folks with the video games get:

Free medical care via Medicaid
Free or subsidized housing
Subsizided utilities including internet in some places
Free job training
Free schooling
Free mass transit passes
Food stamps and WIC cash

All of these things being paid for by others and they still have more than 1 TV and a cell phone? At least be honest. You don't like the fact that there are really rich folks and you want to take their money away. You want to define "fair". Thats cool, just be honest about it.

I know a family that pretty much has every single one of these and you need to knock off free job training. These worthless bums want nothing to do with free job training LOLOLOLOLOL..... Why would they ever go to work when they can sit at home smoke PoT, cigs, enjoy there DVR TV have block BBQs every weekend with other welfare abusers. They have a 47inch LCD 720p tv a nice computer with a 19 inch flat screen. A nice 2006 car limited edition. 2 airconditioners. To top it all off they grow marijuana and have the state pay there electricity to grow it. All the while selling there marijuana making 20k a year on there own plus the free 1400 in cash/foodstamps they get a month. Free medical care which they both use to get narcotics left and right. there whole neighboorhood is like this almost every last one of them about 100 plus people. Then they sit around and bitch about the government and how everything is someone elses fault and no one gave them an oppurtunity. They hate the police hate any sense of government the very own government that feeds them and allows to them to chill and play World of Warcraft all day, and watch DVR all day. They have 2 kids who they are breeding to be welfare abusers. They went and took the GeD tests failed and instead of using there free classes just got high some more.
These leechers i feel are far more common then the ones who need welfare and activly try to get off welfare. This family has been at this for over 3 years all the while making money on the side and not reporting a dime. Here i sit struggling for a job every day unable to play the video games i want to play because i dont have time and i cant afford them. I guess im just ranting some and venting. But its infuriating I peronal feel its time for some social hygene in this country.....The tippy top people and the bottome leeches need to be told this is not ok anymore give us our money back and go to some island with the rest of your greedy kind. I personaly feel the welfare abuser are just as bad as the super rich. All they think about is themselves and how they can take advantage of other hard working humans.

The amount of money my state spends on social services every day is disgusting ill give you a hint we are the state that is in the absolute worst debt in the nation......

So you use a family of four living off 37K per year in the State of California as an example? You state they make 20K selling weed and get about 17K in assistance. Does that sound as if they're living it up to you? Are they taking frequent trips and cruises?

Everything you state sounds like what someone who is on the outside looking in would think.

reply to post by apacheman


You would lose the bet, my friend. I'm retired. Had an idea, worked 100+ hours a week for a few years to bring it to market in a small way and sold it. My company was not in the business of taking government work, never received a small business loan. The 8 folks who helped me are also retired.

In other words, I did it the old fashioned way

Originally posted by ghondon

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by dolphinfan

What a ridiculous article. The obvious intent (from Heritage Foundation, no less) is to make "haaaard wurkin' non-welfare" people think that all of these people are leaching off the government and are not working.

Almost all of those people are hardworking and half the people that will get steamed towards the "poor" people reading this are poor themselves and just don't know it. Poverty line for a single person is $35,000 by most standards. There are a lot of "poor" people who don't even know they are poor. It's not their fault that people like Heritage Foundation are whining on their behalf.

It detracts from the very real problem of a large portion of American society who truly does struggle day to day in order to pay electricity and feed their families. This article is a work of obvious propaganda to foster a class-war. Disgusting.

edit on 19-7-2011 by Cuervo because: deleted long quote

Have you been to welfare neighboorhoods? Maybe inner city philadelphia? Hard working eh I really truly think you should do some research on this I have met at least 100 people on welfare between my current residence and inner city philly and not one of them I repeat not on them was hardworking they all just wait for there welfare checks to roll in to party and do more drugs. While DOING ABSOLUTLY NOTHING TO BETTER THEMSELVES.

It's hard work being poor! A poor person works harder than 90% of successful people.

What you stated is simply propaganda that's been fed to us since the Reagan years that welfare recepients don't do anything but party. I work in welfare everyday and soon as I hear someone state what you have I know they have no actual idea....just on the outside looking in.

reply to post by haarvik


And all you selfish people forget you didn't do it on your own.

It wasn't your money or your labor that built the infrastructure you take advantage of.

You didn't pay for what you use.

Most of the rich I've known are exceedingly lazy people who couldn't do an honest day's work if their life depended on it. Almost all their "work" is verbal.

reply to post by dolphinfan


Are you just as concerned with the filthy rich who are basically all of our slave masters? And when I say slave master I mean slave master, if any of us don't work we would be in the dumps.

I call absolute bull# on this.

I've seen enough poor people in America, either people I've known personally, or people I've seen. Their homes (if they even own a home) are not in good repair, they do not own many luxury items, and they can hardly afford to have decent meals with any regularity at all.

This article is biased and disgusting.

I knew this would start sometime. I knew that by the time social security and VA funds were being threatened, that they would start with the apathy machine. Tell lies, distort the truth, etc. Here we all are too, eating it up, bickering amongst ourselves.

reply to post by Cuervo


Said it a lot better than I could.

The Heritage Foundation. Unbelievable. No agenda there, not possible, nope. They are an organization for peace, prosperity and American liberty.

Originally posted by DZAG Wright

Originally posted by ghondon

Originally posted by dolphinfan
reply to post by LoneGunMan

 

Making assumptions and basing policy on those assumptions is an extremely slippery slope. All rich folks were not crooks in the same manner that all great atheletes are not taking juice.

Improve laws that root out corruption if thats the issue, but based on the Obama class warfare schemes, the rich are not folks like Warren Buffett or the Kennedys. The rich are folks like Joe Blow who owns the plumbing supply store down the street and declares all of his business income as personal income.

Go ahead and take all the money from everyone who has more than $500M and see where your at. Not too hard to find that place because its where you are right now.

The problem is institutionalized entitlement. Lets all realize that many of the "poor" folks with the video games get:

Free medical care via Medicaid
Free or subsidized housing
Subsizided utilities including internet in some places
Free job training
Free schooling
Free mass transit passes
Food stamps and WIC cash

All of these things being paid for by others and they still have more than 1 TV and a cell phone? At least be honest. You don't like the fact that there are really rich folks and you want to take their money away. You want to define "fair". Thats cool, just be honest about it.

I know a family that pretty much has every single one of these and you need to knock off free job training. These worthless bums want nothing to do with free job training LOLOLOLOLOL..... Why would they ever go to work when they can sit at home smoke PoT, cigs, enjoy there DVR TV have block BBQs every weekend with other welfare abusers. They have a 47inch LCD 720p tv a nice computer with a 19 inch flat screen. A nice 2006 car limited edition. 2 airconditioners. To top it all off they grow marijuana and have the state pay there electricity to grow it. All the while selling there marijuana making 20k a year on there own plus the free 1400 in cash/foodstamps they get a month. Free medical care which they both use to get narcotics left and right. there whole neighboorhood is like this almost every last one of them about 100 plus people. Then they sit around and bitch about the government and how everything is someone elses fault and no one gave them an oppurtunity. They hate the police hate any sense of government the very own government that feeds them and allows to them to chill and play World of Warcraft all day, and watch DVR all day. They have 2 kids who they are breeding to be welfare abusers. They went and took the GeD tests failed and instead of using there free classes just got high some more.
These leechers i feel are far more common then the ones who need welfare and activly try to get off welfare. This family has been at this for over 3 years all the while making money on the side and not reporting a dime. Here i sit struggling for a job every day unable to play the video games i want to play because i dont have time and i cant afford them. I guess im just ranting some and venting. But its infuriating I peronal feel its time for some social hygene in this country.....The tippy top people and the bottome leeches need to be told this is not ok anymore give us our money back and go to some island with the rest of your greedy kind. I personaly feel the welfare abuser are just as bad as the super rich. All they think about is themselves and how they can take advantage of other hard working humans.

The amount of money my state spends on social services every day is disgusting ill give you a hint we are the state that is in the absolute worst debt in the nation......

So you use a family of four living off 37K per year in the State of California as an example? You state they make 20K selling weed and get about 17K in assistance. Does that sound as if they're living it up to you? Are they taking frequent trips and cruises?

Everything you state sounds like what someone who is on the outside looking in would think.

DId you forget the free medical care i pay 300 a month for health insurance tack another 3600 on to that they have a family of 4 so take some more on that mine is for 2..... I would say spending multiple hours playing video games and watching there favorite shows is better then im doing. Though i get to go on vacations as i work hard for my money and save it when i make a bunch. Im unemployed now and will finishing retorting to this later as i have 2 interviews this afternoon i must prepare for... So they make 20k free a year of the state and have not looked or tried to get a job in years.... I would say thats chilling and taking it easy off the backs of those who pay taxes wouldnt you? Wouldnt it be nice if you could just chill and play video games and watch tv all day? Or go hiking or do many other things that dont invovle alot of money but you have to have free time to do? It would be vastly differnt if they were doing something to better themselves but there not they are just staying idle enjoying there entitlements much like the rest of there neighboorhood.

reply to post by vkey08

Figures: it was approximately 1 out of 5 that I had that was a family just trying to keep safe from the elements, still working etc.

My capacity was in trying to employ the homeless. Offering them small huts/cabins and construction or handyman work. We would visit the homeless shelters and homeless camps and offer room and board + pay for work. It was rare for us to find people willing to work. When we did find anyone willing to work, they usually wandered off in a day or two. We had one (1) very good success story. We had a handful of temporary success stories, and we had a whole lot of frustration. Maybe I am jaded as well.

What we didn't ever see was a family, in a shelter, willing to work.

I wonder.....the working families that you saw, were they long term residents in the shelter, or was it just a few nights of transition between other arrangements? I'm sure you became intimately connected with your regular residents. Were there families that were regular residents?

I feel like my last post got lost in the avalanche, so I'll post it again.

(Like Glen Close said in Fatal Attraction, "I will not be ignored..")


reply to post by dolphinfan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HOW DARE YOU.

Poverty and wealth are relative to their time and society.

The rich didn't have anywhere to go to the bathroom in the middle ages, so they went from castle to castle filling them with human waste. Per this article.
cafehayek.com...

In 1995 almost 800 people died from having no Air Conditioning.
www.press.uchicago.edu...

Why don't you go put one of your spawn outside today on some nice black pavement and leave IT there.

It is interesting to see the divide and how I believe those arguing against this thread are not applying critical thought, but rather approaching it from a highly emotional stance. This of course is my opinion on the previous discussions within the thread.

I wish to introduce some slightly older items that support the OP. Here is an article from December of 2010.

Funding cuts leave many without home heating assistance

What I want you to do is click the article above. Now, the point here is to examine the photo. In that photo we see a woman, who is holding up what appears to be her heating bills. They are high and she has been seeking assistance to pay for those bills.

What is shocking it would seem this picture, and this is purely speculative as we do not know Raymeica Kelly's true financial situations, supports the OPs assertion. Mrs. Kelly asserted in the article that "..she was unemployed for a year before recently landing a job. But her bills have stacked up while she was unemployed, and she needs the assistance."

It truly is a hard situation to be in. In late 2008 I left the military hoping to venture back into the private sector. I couldn't have picked a worse time of course to do so. I remained unemployed for a year, while bills stacked up and payments fell behind. The difference is unlike Mrs. Kelly, you wouldn't find a picture that shows a large screen TV, an X Box or heck my own place to call my own.

I downsized and became frugal. I sold the fun stuff. I "toughed" it out in one bedroom, in which I paid rent with the little money I had and helped pay the utility bills. Even after I landed a job, it took me nearly two years to get a good balance of fun and wants against needs. If things were to get tough again for me, you can bet this computer and the TV I own (in 2008 I made a promise to myself that I will never put anything on credit again), will be sold and extras such as cable, the cellphone, internet service, the extra food items that are not really needed for sustenance will be all cut out of my wants.

Contrast this with a good friend of mine. Has no job, maintains about the same lifestyle as me on government assistance, food stamps, a 20 hour/week job paying around $12-13 an hour and the $1300 for child support she is pulling in. Roughly, if I add up her work hours, the low taxes she pays, the child support, food stamps, and all other government entitlements she is receiving it comes to about $28-32K/year (this would be her disposable income if food stamps and other benefits could be rolled into hard cash). Not bad for only putting in part time work. Of course, she has her challenges (single parents do, but life choices have consequences.)

I put in 40+ hours a week and make around $30/hour. Yet her disposable income and my disposable income (before we spend it on rent/food/anything) is nearly the same. I watch roughly 40-45% of my paycheck (taxes and paid benefits) whisk away before it even hits my bank while she enjoys payments to be a citizen and falls into the category of not paying taxes and receiving more money back than she has put into.

But you are right. Let us weep for those "poor" that this OP is referring to. Is what the OPs article depicts a blanket view of Modern Poverty? I believe it is, inasmuch here in the United States. Especially when we use the Government's own term and definition of "poverty". Are there worse cases of poverty? Yes, absolutely.