The Melting Middle Class, page 1

The Melting Middle Class, page

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Topic started on 18-7-2011 @ 10:09 PM by David9176

Just watched this and wanted to share it. The middle class is literally melting.

Excellent art combined with an excellent speech make a powerful statement indeed.

YouTube Link

This speech was done by Bernie Sanders on the Senate floor not that long ago...have no idea who actually created the video. More of the speech is in this thread link

edit on 18-7-2011 by David9176 because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 18-7-2011 @ 10:21 PM by kro32

First you need to define what the middle class is. Usually it's defined as individuals making 25,000 to 100,000 and is further subdivided into upper and lower middle class.

Now before you think it's melting away you should ask yourself who is going to be doing all those middle class jobs once the middle class melts away. Or are you suggesting that pay rates will fall to amounts that are lower than 25k and higher than 100k.

The middle class isn't going anywhere no matter what kind of speeches or video's you listen too.

reply posted on 18-7-2011 @ 10:24 PM by Jezus

reply to post by kro32

The opinion of someone who never tried to live off 25,000 dollars a year...

reply posted on 18-7-2011 @ 10:28 PM by kro32

Originally posted by Jezus
reply to post by kro32

The opinion of someone who never tried to live off 25,000 dollars a year...

First of all you have no idea what i've lived off so this statement is worthless and second of all it has nothing to do with the point of this thread. The thread is about the melting middle class not how to live off of 25k a year.

reply posted on 18-7-2011 @ 11:00 PM by AkumaStreak

Originally posted by Kro32
Now before you think it's melting away you should ask yourself who is going to be doing all those middle class jobs once the middle class melts away.

The same people/kind of people will be doing those jobs, the difference is that the jobs trend (are trending/will continue to trend) towards what are effectively lower class jobs. I've seen this in my field for over a decade.

Originally posted by Kro32
First of all you have no idea what i've lived off so this statement is worthless and second of all it has nothing to do with the point of this thread. The thread is about the melting middle class not how to live off of 25k a year.

He's making an assumption based on your comments/POV. His point seems entirely relevant to me. Actually, the fact that you don't see the relevance reflects a real disconnect from the topic, imo.

edit on 7/18/2011 by AkumaStreak because: Added quote tags

edit on 7/18/2011 by AkumaStreak because: formatting

reply posted on 18-7-2011 @ 11:04 PM by kro32

reply to post by AkumaStreak

Well I currently make less than 25k a year. In fact I make less than 20 a year so he is very incorrect. And to your first point there is only so far the jobs can trend towards lower class, there will always be a middle class as long as the work and jobs are there and I haven't seen a scenario proposed where those jobs would disappear.

reply posted on 18-7-2011 @ 11:15 PM by Hessling

“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.” ~ Warren Buffett NYT 11-26-2006

And it's being done right under our collective noses.

That was an excellent video. Quite powerful really.

I still don't see how anyone, even the extremely wealthy, can believe this trend is sustainable. Without a strong middle class this country is going to be in some serious sh#t. And you don't have to go the Dreams & Predictions forum to believe that.

reply posted on 18-7-2011 @ 11:20 PM by Partygirl

Originally posted by kro32
Now before you think it's melting away you should ask yourself who is going to be doing all those middle class jobs once the middle class melts away. Or are you suggesting that pay rates will fall to amounts that are lower than 25k and higher than 100k.

The middle class isn't going anywhere no matter what kind of speeches or video's you listen too.

Actually it will go somewhere. Since so much is computerized and automated and can be taken care of anywhere at work, it is going lots of places. Accountants in India are about 1/14th the price of those in the US and they tend to to better, faster work. Archetects in East Europe, CAD designers in Ghana, management consultants from Singapore and remote mechanical engineering from China. It's a brave new world. Get used to competing wage-wise with people who live in chicken coops stacked up on rooftops.

And if you think its unfair all you Ayn-Randoids and Conservatives can give yourselves a pat on the back for licking the hand of Big Business and worshipping at the altar of "deregulation" for the past 30 years. Shame on you.

reply posted on 18-7-2011 @ 11:25 PM by kro32

The majority of work cannot be done by computers. All these blue collar jobs like truck drivers, garbage men, postal workers and things will still need to be done and they will still make more than 25k. How is all that going to disappear?

reply posted on 18-7-2011 @ 11:33 PM by AkumaStreak

I don't think the argument is that certain kinds of jobs are going away in great numbers overnight, as if there is a need there will be a job -- we agree there. However, there will always be a computer programmer, but what prevents that job from being devalued to the status of a lower-class job?

Originally posted by kro32
there is only so far the jobs can trend towards lower class

Why? What checks prevent corporations/the obscenely rich from eradicating the middle class (by simply not offering salaries/benefits in the ranges you would consider middle class as often as they traditionally have, and having us fight for these comparatively lower positions)?

Originally posted by kro32
there will always be a middle class as long as the work and jobs are there

Again, why? Any guarantees against this (happening any further, that is) would be comforting!

reply posted on 18-7-2011 @ 11:37 PM by Boreas

Originally posted by kro32
The majority of work cannot be done by computers. All these blue collar jobs like truck drivers, garbage men, postal workers and things will still need to be done and they will still make more than 25k. How is all that going to disappear?

And how many folks thought their jobs were irreplaceable before someone figured out a way to automatize it? Give it time. Besides, as the unemployed continue to increase in numbers, the supply of available labor (ie- those willing to take less pay for the privilege of working) will drive down the wages. Why pay someone 25k when there are droves of people out of work willing to do the job for far less?

reply posted on 18-7-2011 @ 11:42 PM by whaaa

Originally posted by kro32
reply to post by AkumaStreak

Well I currently make less than 25k a year. In fact I make less than 20 a year so he is very incorrect. And to your first point there is only so far the jobs can trend towards lower class, there will always be a middle class as long as the work and jobs are there and I haven't seen a scenario proposed where those jobs would disappear.

Of course there will always be service jobs that barely pay a living wage; that's why both parents have to work.

The technical and skilled jobs are being outsourced in the name of corporate profit even more rapidly than ever.

Actually the middle class are poorer now than they have been in the past.

I'll bet your wife works, huh?

reply posted on 18-7-2011 @ 11:44 PM by Hessling

reply to post by Boreas

Give that member a cigar!

Boreas, that was exactly what drove me out of the Technology field about a decade ago. There was a ridiculous influx of new labor in the field combined with the dot.com bubble bursting. Supply and demand in the field, from a labor perspective, was totally whacked.

I was damn good at what I did at the time. However, I was used to getting paid $60K / year at that point. Nothing stopping the department from hiring 2.5 new employees for the same labor dollars. I had to make an exit and fast...which I did.

reply posted on 19-7-2011 @ 12:03 AM by kro32

reply to post by AkumaStreak

Well following that logic we would eventually end up working for pennies an hour. If your saying that's not possible and there is a cap to how far wages could go than my point is relevant I believe however I am nowhere near anything resembling an economist so feel free to corret my logic on this one.

reply posted on 19-7-2011 @ 12:22 AM by AkumaStreak

Originally posted by kro32
reply to post by AkumaStreak

Well following that logic we would eventually end up working for pennies an hour. If your saying that's not possible and there is a cap to how far wages could go than my point is relevant I believe however I am nowhere near anything resembling an economist so feel free to corret my logic on this one.

Pennies an hour works best for no one. What works best for the rich however is to keep their boat relatively exclusive and to promote consumerism (shove their ads in front of us in what is so far a limitless manner)/get a large portion of what's been paid out right back from families who are quite strapped but who have their heads just above the water line (actually that didn't suffice, and unending debt is the new normal for many).

Before you say that debt is entirely the consumer's fault, try and consider everything we're trained to desire/want (NEED even!) and chase in this world. Also, many are in debt because of medical circumstances that are beyond their control (as no individual can be resp. for the obscene costs of health care).

reply posted on 19-7-2011 @ 11:25 AM by chiefsmom

reply to post by kro32

It's not just that the job's gone. When the cost of milk goes from $2.00 to $4.00 along with every basic necessity to live, that $25K isn't going to do a whole lot any more.

reply posted on 19-7-2011 @ 12:44 PM by watcher3339

reply to post by kro32

If you haven't seen a scenario in which middle income jobs will disappear than you should look into free trade. The free trade scenario drastically undermines the U.S. Middle Class.

One of our few areas of increased export in 2010/2011 was technology. That was supposed to make us feel better about all of the computer help desk and information technology jobs that have been outsourced.

The new Free Trade Agreement with South Korea will kill even the small number of increased jobs we were getting from the technology sector.

And, middle class jobs that can't be outsourced by geographic necessity? Well, teachers, the very definition of Middle Class are under fire every day. And while, yes, unions have some issues, the attack on teachers has more sinister roots than that.

Fight for it or watch it go.
I was born and raised middle class. I will do what it takes to ensure that same opportunity for future generations.

Free Trade: Killing Off the Middle For More than Two Decades.

reply posted on 19-7-2011 @ 12:45 PM by watcher3339

Originally posted by kro32
The majority of work cannot be done by computers. All these blue collar jobs like truck drivers, garbage men, postal workers and things will still need to be done and they will still make more than 25k. How is all that going to disappear?

Ah, all those union jobs. Yes, nothing in our current events to indicate that anybody is taking aim at union jobs.
Oh, wait....

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