Prove The Western Judeo-Christian Holy Books Are Correct

I keep seeing the age-old argument of "this holy book is right but that one's wrong" all over ATS. The problem is that when I jump in to ask questions, they get ignored. These questions, if answered, would completely (in one way or another) resolve the debate.

This is not to demean anybody's faith or fight over the existence of a god; I'm not an atheist, myself. This is solely addressed to the people who think that the Christian bible is literally the "word of god". So, if any of you can answer, by all means, enlighten us:

1. The bible does not say which books should be in the bible. The Roman Catholic church voted for these books. So how can you be so sure they are the correct ones?

2. If faith in God guides you to believe in the bible, have you ever asked yourself why you connect the two? Why does your faith mean you have to believe a collection of literature chosen by a totalitarian theocracy?

3. Some books in the bible reference each other. What about the ones that don't? Why even consider them holy in the first place?

4. There are many correct and accurate predictions made by prophets in the bible. This is often used as "proof" of it being God's word. Why aren't the accurate predictions made by other religions, pagans, and atheists considered holy?

5. Why are you convinced that it is unChristian to question the validity of scripture? Especially since you have no idea which books are really "God's word"?

6. If you admit that it is, indeed, man that decided on what you should be reading regarding God, do you believe that they are all inspired by God? If so... what scriptual evidence to you have that says contemporary religious leaders are inspired by God? In fact, the bible says the opposite and to beware those who will decieve.

What else is there??

"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion."
Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865)

1. The bible does not say which books should be in the bible. The Roman Catholic church voted for these books. So how can you be so sure they are the correct ones?

Well if you find bibles from a lot of other countries they contain more books than our western Bibles do.
My personal belief is there are some books that should have been left in, but there are also some that seem to be very hard to understand, which is why I believe they were left out


2. If faith in God guides you to believe in the bible, have you ever asked yourself why you connect the two? Why does your faith mean you have to believe a collection of literature chosen by a totalitarian theocracy?
Depends on where you've been guided. Of the 3 main religions Christianity makes more sense to me, and is more about forgiveness. That being said I think those who search for truth will eventually find it.

3. Some books in the bible reference each other. What about the ones that don't? Why even consider them holy in the first place?
Don't really understand your question

4. There are many correct and accurate predictions made by prophets in the bible. This is often used as "proof" of it being God's word. Why aren't the accurate predictions made by other religions, pagans, and atheists considered holy?
Because a prophet is not from God if he makes an error or incorrect prophesy

5. Why are you convinced that it is unChristian to question the validity of scripture? Especially since you have no idea which books are really "God's word"?
If you read some of the books you may understand why they were left out. While others Remember if God wants people to believe, why would he let his true word be witheld from mankind?

6. If you admit that it is, indeed, man that decided on what you should be reading regarding God, do you believe that they are all inspired by God? If so... what scriptual evidence to you have that says contemporary religious leaders are inspired by God? In fact, the bible says the opposite and to beware those who will decieve.
I do not believe modern day religious leaders are from God at all. A Christian who follows man will never get to a better place

This is something I have asked myself many times. Even there are a few different books in the Catholic Bible. The best answer I can come up with is for you to read them all and decide for yourself if that particular book coincides with the rest of the message of the Bible and what you believe.

Of course ultimately it says all you have to do is repent and believe, so which Bible and which books you believed or were told were true isn't going to matter in the grand scheme of things.

Assuming you believe in the first place.

reply to post by Cuervo

1. The bible does not say which books should be in the bible. The Roman Catholic church voted for these books. So how can you be so sure they are the correct ones?

Literacy came to masses from the printing press. The printing press came to the people by way of the errors of the church selling indulgences. Luther printed his thesis and nailed it to the door of the church and 70 million people fled Europe for religious freedom in America. The Bible, printed on the newly developed press, then brought literacy to humanity. Humanity peeks at the dawn of the industrial revolution and then declines as the Bible is removed from the people as the moral guide. And, here we are.

Freedom and morality owes its legacy to the Bible. Ultimately, mankind will owe its freedom from oppression and tyranny to the Bible. God did this, in spite of mans efforts to corrupt his work. God is capable of preserving His word in the correct form.

2. If faith in God guides you to believe in the bible, have you ever asked yourself why you connect the two? Why does your faith mean you have to believe a collection of literature chosen by a totalitarian theocracy?

Look at the world. There are two sides: Pride places the belief on self. This demands me to see the world as something I own. Humility says we are all equally created in God's eyes. This demands we treat others as equal. Which is good? Which is evil? The Bible is the guide to honoring, protecting and defending God's creation. The other can only steal, kill and destroy. The proof is acted out in the world each day by each life lived.

3. Some books in the bible reference each other. What about the ones that don't? Why even consider them holy in the first place?

All Biblical truth can be rightly divided by the seven rules of Hillel. LINK He was the 1st Century Rabbi of Paul and Simeon. The councils that selected the books used this method to select the books that were inspired.

4. There are many correct and accurate predictions made by prophets in the bible. This is often used as "proof" of it being God's word. Why aren't the accurate predictions made by other religions, pagans, and atheists considered holy?

God can draw the future into the past. Edgar Casey, for instance, attributed his gift to God. Others are obvious fakes. Even Casey was off on some. The Bible is 100%.

5. Why are you convinced that it is unChristian to question the validity of scripture? Especially since you have no idea which books are really "God's word"?

Doubt is not absent from faith or it would be fact. Evidence abounds if bias is removed. The flaming sword in Genesis 3 is disbelief. It blinds. Remove it simply by asking God. Seek and you find. Knock and the door opens.

Truth is everywhere. The Dhammapada by Buddha says the same story called the way. Confucius and philosophy speaks ethics and virtue (truth). The Bible (life) is all three and is the final message of life. John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." It all reflects God as in a mirror. 1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

6. If you admit that it is, indeed, man that decided on what you should be reading regarding God, do you believe that they are all inspired by God? If so... what scriptual evidence to you have that says contemporary religious leaders are inspired by God? In fact, the bible says the opposite and to beware those who will decieve.

The world is devoid of these truths. The Bible is honor, protection and defense of truth and virtue. Read the posts of Atheists and you will see steal, kill and destroy from bias and hatred. The flaming sword in their hands blinds their eyes. Love is the key. Love God and your fellow man (even enemies). Fight with the sword of truth. Freedom and liberty results. Tyranny reigns in its absence. Evidence aplenty.

I take the time, not to defend, but to extend truth in love for others.

Originally posted by Dezero

Well if you find bibles from a lot of other countries they contain more books than our western Bibles do.
My personal belief is there are some books that should have been left in, but there are also some that seem to be very hard to understand, which is why I believe they were left out

If they left Revelations in, I don't think the issue was ease of consumption.

Originally posted by Dezero

Depends on where you've been guided. Of the 3 main religions Christianity makes more sense to me, and is more about forgiveness. That being said I think those who search for truth will eventually find it.

So because you find Christianity to be the most palatable, you find it's holy book to be the absolute authority of God? The one and only?

Originally posted by Dezero
4. There are many correct and accurate predictions made by prophets in the bible. This is often used as "proof" of it being God's word. Why aren't the accurate predictions made by other religions, pagans, and atheists considered holy?
Because a prophet is not from God if he makes an error or incorrect prophesy

But there have been others who have given accurate prediction. Some just as startling as biblical texts.

Originally posted by Dezero
If you read some of the books you may understand why they were left out. While others Remember if God wants people to believe, why would he let his true word be witheld from mankind?

I have read the others that were removed. They gave certain impressions that men did not want people to have about the church. Again, I don't think that was God's doing.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Thank you. Those were very thought-provoking answers and it is obvious that you are one of the "good guys" when it comes to faith. The problem is that you are only convincing me that God is good and that people who believe in God are enlightened. I already believe that.

What you didn't explain was why you are so sure that the bible is the absolute authority. You actually expressed that doubt is part of being a Christian. By your rationale, would it be acceptable for a Christian to not believe that the bible (and every book in it) is the one and only true word of God?

Faith and doubt are on a pendulum, as are all opposites. We swing from one to the other. When you finally get to truth, its reflection is equal and opposite as in a mirror. Follow any thread on God and you will see an argument for faith countered by its opposite. The evidence is produced by the fruit each belief bears by actions. Consider what the Bible means by image in Genesis.

There is more to say than one post allows. It takes years to find but minutes to read. Read more of my perspective here:

Link

Link

Link

Originally posted by Cuervo
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Thank you. Those were very thought-provoking answers and it is obvious that you are one of the "good guys" when it comes to faith. The problem is that you are only convincing me that God is good and that people who believe in God are enlightened. I already believe that.

What you didn't explain was why you are so sure that the bible is the absolute authority. You actually expressed that doubt is part of being a Christian. By your rationale, would it be acceptable for a Christian to not believe that the bible (and every book in it) is the one and only true word of God?

reply to post by SuperiorEd


How on Earth did the printing press come to being because of some theological arguments between the Catholic Church and Luther when woodblock printing was known in China in the 800's, they also invented moveable type printing much to the dismay of your Eurocentricity. They did not know Christianity so your intimation that everything arises from Christian theological discourse is patently false.

Read your history. The best video is by the BBC (Connections with Burke). Religion, War, Accidents and Environment. All traced to God working for the good of mankind. No accident that the misuse of the press fueled its proliferation and the English Bible. Watch this program through part 5 and he eventually presents an equal and opposite argument against faith. Truth always presents you the choice. It boils down to belief in consciousness preexisting before creation. Science takes the Holy Spirit out of the equation. If you were looking for a definition of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (consciousness), now you know.

Originally posted by goldentorch
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

How on Earth did the printing press come to being because of some theological arguments between the Catholic Church and Luther when woodblock printing was known in China in the 800's, they also invented moveable type printing much to the dismay of your Eurocentricity. They did not know Christianity so your intimation that everything arises from Christian theological discourse is patently false.

Recheck the last reply. This is the printing press video I referred to:

Originally posted by Cuervo

If they left Revelations in, I don't think the issue was ease of consumption.

Revelations is deliberately hard to understand, and also you can reference a lot of it from other parts of the bible. When I say hard to understand I mean there are books (like the book of Enoch) that confuse rather than inspire people. In the translators R.H. Charles own words to the effect - there are parts that seem like it was written by many authors and the book jumps from place to place

So because you find Christianity to be the most palatable, you find it's holy book to be the absolute authority of God? The one and only?

I made one reference to why I believe in the bible and you jump on it like a dog on heat. I have many, many reasons why I call myself Christian. If this was the only one I had I'd be a very weak Christian

But there have been others who have given accurate prediction. Some just as startling as biblical texts.

Name a prophet who was accurate in every prediction he/she made that wasn't from the bible. Someone who was never wrong in their prophecies since they became a prophet

I have read the others that were removed. They gave certain impressions that men did not want people to have about the church. Again, I don't think that was God's doing.

The bible is not perfect, but it has enough in there for salvation, and is very inspiring. Man is not entitled to Gods pure word since we are so sinful. This is my belief anyway

1. The bible does not say which books should be in the bible. The Roman Catholic church voted for these books. So how can you be so sure they are the correct ones?

First off, the major debate on this actually exists in the New Testament. The Apocrypha contains several books that the Roman Catholic Church has adopted as scripture that are not considered scripture by Jewish tradition. Jesus was the Messiah according to Christianity. He was a Jew himself and infact, the Bible claims that all who are followers of Jesus are also Jews who are grafted in (Galatians 3:29). So whatever tradition he subscribed to, that is what we follow. The cannon of the Old Testament was well established by the Jews in his day, as the last book in them was written nearly 400 years before Jesus came.

As for the New Testament, the books were all written by people who were with Jesus in some form or another. The persecution of Diocletian (302 AD) was the tipping point for deciding definitively which books were divinely inspired. This is not a difficult task for men who have committed themselves to the task. You have a large volume of confirmed work in the Old Testament to pull from and any book that contains information to the contrary of the previous work is considered non-scriptural. Also, please take into account that there are very few modern apologists or writers who spent the amount of time in scripture that men in those day did. Entertainment was not as prolific as it is today. The fixing of the new Testament canon was finalized mainly at the council at Carthage in 387 A.D., although the evidence points to the selection of the books as early as about the year 100 A.D.

As for the Roman Catholic Church, you need to understand the actual difference between the Catholic and Protestant versions of Christianity. We protestants consider the Catholic Church to be the Antichrist power spoken of as coming in scripture.

en.wikipedia.org...(Christianity)


2. If faith in God guides you to believe in the bible, have you ever asked yourself why you connect the two? Why does your faith mean you have to believe a collection of literature chosen by a totalitarian theocracy?

Again, see my reference to our beliefs about the Catholic Church. They themselves place scripture on a subordinate level to tradition.

archive.catholic.com...

Their arguments are interesting, but ultimately mute as the Apostles who physically walked with Jesus were still alive when Timothy was being taught and heard the truth directly from the mouth of Jesus himself.

The real reason for my faith is the accuracy of their prophetic teachings (referenced at end of first question). And archeological evidence in favor of this view of history.

www.wyattmuseum.com... (this source is well known and extremely controversial which is why I chose it, as anything mainstream deserves extreme scrutiny).

This as well as scientific inquiry.

For this, please visit www.youtube.com... - Under playlists, you will see one section called the Genesis Conflict by a research professor who was a previous evolutionist turned Christian based on scientific evidence for a flood.

3. Some books in the bible reference each other. What about the ones that don't? Why even consider them holy in the first place?

In this regard, you have to consider the source of the material. Many of the New Testament books were written by the Apostles themselves (Paul included in this) who met and knew Jesus personally. The remainder were people who were close to him. If you can't hear it from the horses mouth, an eye witness is the next best thing.

4. There are many correct and accurate predictions made by prophets in the bible. This is often used as "proof" of it being God's word. Why aren't the accurate predictions made by other religions, pagans, and atheists considered holy?

I have only studied the Koran in any depth outside of the Bible, but would like to know the predictions you reference.

5. Why are you convinced that it is unChristian to question the validity of scripture? Especially since you have no idea which books are really "God's word"?

Again, I think I have answered why they are considered God's Word, but I don't consider it un-Christian. In fact, the Bible requires that we do the opposite (I Thessalonians 5:21).

6. If you admit that it is, indeed, man that decided on what you should be reading regarding God, do you believe that they are all inspired by God? If so... what scriptual evidence to you have that says contemporary religious leaders are inspired by God? In fact, the bible says the opposite and to beware those who will decieve.

Again, we are talking about the Apostles who walked with Jesus and his inner circle. As for contemporary, be wary, you never know what you will get with those guys.

Exactly right on your last point, Matthew 24 says there will be deception in the last days. :-)

reply to post by Sephiroth1550


Wow. This was the most comprehensive answer I've received on the subject, in person or online. It still seems to come down to simply trusting the word of other men. Pointing out that Jewish scripture was already set in stone when Jesus was a Jew totally opens my eyes. It doesn't make it any more valid for me but I just never considered that before. I guess I just always considered the bible largely unorganized until the Council of Nicea (or the Carthage). I don't know why I've never entertained that concept.

Thanks for the thought you put into this and I'll be revisiting this later.