Why God's Word The Bible IS Infallible!

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman



Thanks for the frankness wearewatchingyouman – now I know where you’re coming from and at ease in this converse. All I can say about your background is wow – you came from a very spiritually active family and I have no doubt that you have “the knowledge”. Me? -- just a reg-pub – that’s all (ave. 3-4). But that’s neither here nor there for all the knowledge in this world will not matter much if it’s not founded in the infallible written word of God.

OF course you have your version of “truth” and I have mine – difference is I completely trust God’s Word the Bible. You on the other hand based your “truth” on “scholars”.

Don’t get me wrong – many scholars had gotten their works right, for that I’m grateful but sadly they are just imperfect men and women and will make mistakes. Noone is immune to this, that I’m fully aware – from Adam down to our time. In addition God’s enemy Satan and his minions are at this for a long, long time now - busily planting doubts since time immemorial. SO it’s up to the individual to “make sure of all things” – if a word, phrase, quote is true or not. If one is not selective as far as this world’s “wisdom” is concern then one will end up confused – especially if it’s NOT grounded on facts and most of all God’s infallible word.

And like I said – my standard is the Bible and I use extensively to detect whether “a truth” is indeed from the Word of God or not. If not then it will be fully revealed as such.

There’s also the need to be humble, the willingness to change if ones understanding or “wisdom” has been proven wrong (i.e. politics, war, cross, pagan celebrations, etc). Sadly many lack this attribute.
So back to the topic – since you’re not able to convincingly show and prove the discrepancy in Genesis 1 and 2 what discrepancy are you trying to prove now in Genesis 3?

(ps - no time count here, just a converse)

Thanks for the frankness wearewatchingyouman – now I know where you’re coming from and at ease in this converse. All I can say about your background is wow – you came from a very spiritually active family and I have no doubt that you have “the knowledge”. Me? -- just a reg-pub – that’s all (ave. 3-4).

no prob.... thanks... to each their own...

But that’s neither here nor there for all the knowledge in this world will not matter much if it’s not founded in the infallible written word of God.

OF course you have your version of “truth” and I have mine – difference is I completely trust God’s Word the Bible. You on the other hand based your “truth” on “scholars”.

Maybe I wasn't clear...Though I use tools, techniques and teachings of scholars to better understand religion and their texts this is not what my "truth" is based on... My truth is that God can not be understood through knowledge, reason or logic... Thus the term Agnostic Theist...God is not a "reasonable" concept to the human mind... it's INCONCEIVABLE!..... and the more you rely on these things to base your faith on the further you get from The Supreme Being... Thus my stance with the bible... From my own research I find it to be nothing more than a great piece of literature written by fallible men... one used for many different reasons... both good and evil... a compilation of texts written by men who felt inspired by the concept of God and thus wished to record their experiences and beliefs...

Don’t get me wrong – many scholars had gotten their works right, for that I’m grateful but sadly they are just imperfect men and women and will make mistakes. Noone is immune to this, that I’m fully aware – from Adam down to our time. In addition God’s enemy Satan and his minions are at this for a long, long time now - busily planting doubts since time immemorial. SO it’s up to the individual to “make sure of all things” – if a word, phrase, quote is true or not. If one is not selective as far as this world’s “wisdom” is concern then one will end up confused – especially if it’s NOT grounded on facts and most of all God’s infallible word.

And like I said – my standard is the Bible and I use extensively to detect whether “a truth” is indeed from the Word of God or not. If not then it will be fully revealed as such.

I find it very odd that you would associate yourself as one of Jehovah's Witnesses with this ideology... much of their eschatology, which differentiates them from other sects, is extra biblical man made wisdom.

There’s also the need to be humble, the willingness to change if ones understanding or “wisdom” has been proven wrong (i.e. politics, war, cross, pagan celebrations, etc). Sadly many lack this attribute.

I couldn't agree more... yet the WBTS claims that Jesus chose the FDS and seperated the rest of christendom from them when they took part in all these things in 1919... so if it wasn't this that seperated them... then what was it exactly that seperated them as different?

So back to the topic – since you’re not able to convincingly show and prove the discrepancy in Genesis 1 and 2 what discrepancy are you trying to prove now in Genesis 3?

*DISCLAIMER-most of this is copied and pasted from previous conversations in the interest of time... some of it may not even be my own words... but in the interest of time.... well you know.... if something doesn't seem cohesive I apoligize and please ask me to clarify, but I think you should get the jist of my position...

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The account of Adam and Eve as a literal event is full of logical contradictions.

There is something God did not want Adam and Eve to know. He didn’t want them to know the difference between good and evil. Why wouldn’t he want them to know that? Beats me. Furthermore, if God didn’t WANT them to know the difference between good and bad, then before they ate of that tree, they did NOT know the difference. It could be no other way.

Without knowing the difference between good and bad, Adam and Eve would remain ethical and moral idiots without any frames of reference on how to conduct their lives. By virtue of putting that tree in the garden and by virtue of God telling them it was the tree of “knowledge” of good and evil, then it is clear they could only get that knowledge if they did eat of that tree. It could be no other way.

They wouldn’t know that roasting their children live and eating them was evil, for example. They wouldn’t know that helping others was good, either. They simply wouldn’t know.

What if one argues that Adam and Eve were made in God’s image as the Bible clearly states? Since God knows what is good and what is evil, then God must have given them the ability to recognize good from evil. If that were the case, then there would be no NEED for that tree in the first place! They would already have the godly qualities of knowledge of what is good and what is evil. But since there WAS a tree, then they didn’t have those qualities. Therefore, they were NOT made in God’s image as the Bible states. A major quality that separates humans from beasts, is that we have ethics and morals and we have choice about how to apply those ethics and morals. Beasts don’t. Without knowing right from wrong, i.e. “good” from “bad” we would not be truly made in God’s image. Therefore, “perfect” Adam and Eve were not made in God’s image at all and the Genesis account has already and directly contradicted itself.

So they ate the fruit, and God was really upset. He states that they have now become one of US and now know the difference between good and evil. Once again, this shows that they did not know the difference before they ate. Herein lies another problem: what exactly happened that caused them to know this? The Bible said they became ashamed and fearful. But being ashamed is not good, nor is it evil. Neither is being fearful. Those are just feelings. SOMETHING caused them to gain this knowledge, though. It HAD to be something in the fruit! The fruit was rigged with some sort of DNA or chemicals or magical potion, or something. If you want to argue that it wasn’t the fruit, but that God himself instantly wired their brains the minute they ate of that fruit, then God is to blame for the whole thing. He didn’t have to wire their brains if he didn’t want to.

If they were perfect humans at the start as is the claim, and if they were “made in God’s image” as the Bible claims they would have HAD to know the difference between good and evil. Otherwise, they would have been worse than we who are imperfect yet do know the difference: they would have been morons without any moral compass for life whatsoever. But they DIDN’T know the difference or there would have been no need for that tree. In other words they couldn't have known that disobeying the good God was the bad thing to do, verses not listening to the evil serpent was the good thing to do, because they had no concept of this.Thus there was no "original sin", because in order to sin one must understand the good/bad, right/wrong, paradox.

There is a claim that Adam and Eve were created to live forever, but Gen. 3:22 says God kicked them out of the Garden so they couldn’t eat of the “tree of life” and live to “time indefinite.” This implies that until Adam and Eve ate of that tree of life, they would not be able to live not only forever, but even to “time indefinite.” Adam and Eve’s bodies were not made to live a long, long time. If they were, there would have been no need for a “tree of life.” Either they were pre-rigged in such a way that they would die unless they ate of that tree of life and that tree contained some magic potion that would undo that rigging, or God would have had to tinker with their genes after they ate of that tree to make them live long, long lives or even forever.

This is important to remember. They were NOT initially set-up to live long, long lives. One cannot argue that they were, because of that “tree of life” verse. God COULD have been a little more optimistic and created them to live long, lives, and later messed them up when they disobeyed him, but it turns out that God was a pessimist from the get-go and assumed the worse by the was he set things up. He didn’t even trust his OWN creation. Strange God, that.

Therefore, the God of Genesis created the first pair pre-supposing they would be doomed. He made the tree of knowledge overwhelmingly resistible, they succumbed and he doomed them. And us.

Furthermore, the idea that the Serpent became the father of the lie in chapter 3 is absoloutly ludacris. Please point out where he lied. If anything God lied in 2:17 when he said "for in the day you eat it you will positively die." I'm pretty sure they didn't die the day they ate from it just as the serpent said in verse 3:4, and as already covered they weren't created to live forever. He certainly didn't lie when he said in verse 5 that they would become as God(s) knowing good from evil. This is made clear by verse 22 also when God says "he has become like one of US".

(ps - no time count here, just a converse)

... can you do this now? count time for witnessing online? last I read the FDS discouraged conversations as this one in this type of environment...

*he made the tree of knowledge overwhelmingly IRresistable...

sorry bout that...

reply to post by edmc^2


You wrote:

["Why do you keep bringing up religion? Stick to the Bible please and by all means point to me how I manipulated the scriptures to you."]

And why should we stick to the bible 'proving' the bible? There are several other truth/reality-seeking systems, which don't even include circular reasoning.

reply to post by Lazarus Short



You wrote:

["How do I know that the Bible is the infallible Word of God? It lies in the mathematical patterns. cycles, coding, and factoring in the original text. The Greek and Hebrew, along with many other ancient languages, did not have a separate set of symbols for numbers, so letters were assigned numerical values. That led to some rather arcane mathematics, but the important thing here is that if the number value is plugged in for each Hebrew or Greek letter, a coherent, multi-layered, multi-dimensional mathematical pattern emerges which is highly complex, so much so that it staggers a merely human mind."]

Panin's work doesn't stand any chance of a rational scrutiny.

Quote: ["and his work has never been refuted."]

Neither have pastafarian doctrines.

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman


Well thought out post, I hadn’t considered this bit

Adam and Eve would remain ethical and moral idiots without any frames of reference on how to conduct their lives

Isn’t the name for this condition called psychopathic?

Would this not mean that bible god made psychopaths in his own image and only got his panties in a bunch when they stopped been psychopathic?

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman


Wow – long post.

I was gonna reply to your long post point by point but decided not to so as not to make my post too long. SO I’ll keep my reply as short as I can.

You or someone said:

The account of Adam and Eve as a literal event is so full of logical contradictions.

Of course if one will not consider carefully what the account is all about and lessons behind it and doesn’t consider the context then it will seem to have contradictions. But a lot of these misconceptions are due to pre-conceived ideas and reasonings promoted by people whose main agenda is to discredit the Bible. They have no intention in finding out the truth.

Below is a classic example of such pre-conceive ideas and reasoning.

You or someone said:

There is something God did not want Adam and Eve to know. He didn’t want them to know the difference between good and evil. Why wouldn’t he want them to know that? Beats me. Furthermore, if God didn’t WANT them to know the difference between good and bad, then before they ate of that tree, they did NOT know the difference. It could be no other way.

Without knowing the difference between good and bad, Adam and Eve would remain ethical and moral idiots without any frames of reference on how to conduct their lives. By virtue of putting that tree in the garden and by virtue of God telling them it was the tree of “knowledge” of good and evil, then it is clear they could only get that knowledge if they did eat of that tree. It could be no other way.

They wouldn’t know that roasting their children live and eating them was evil, for example. They wouldn’t know that helping others was good, either. They simply wouldn’t know.

What if one argues that Adam and Eve were made in God’s image as the Bible clearly states? Since God knows what is good and what is evil, then God must have given them the ability to recognize good from evil. If that were the case, then there would be no NEED for that stupid ol’ tree in the first place! They would already have the godly qualities of knowledge of what is good and what is evil. But since there WAS a tree, then they didn’t have those qualities. Therefore, they were NOT made in God’s image as the Bible states. A major quality that separates humans from beasts, is that we have ethics and morals and we have choice about how to apply those ethics and morals. Beasts don’t. Without knowing right from wrong, i.e. “good” from “evil” we would not be truly made in God’s image. Therefore, “perfect” Adam and Eve were not made in God’s image at all and the Genesis account has already and directly contradicted itself.

So they ate the fruit, and God was really pissed. He states that they have now become one of US and now know the difference between good and evil. Once again, this shows that they did not know the difference before they ate. Herein lies another problem: what exactly happened that caused them to know this? The Bible said they became ashamed and fearful. But being ashamed is not good, nor is it evil. Neither is being fearful. Those are just feelings. SOMETHING caused them to gain this knowledge, though. It HAD to be something in the fruit! The fruit was rigged with some sort of DNA or chemicals or magical potion, or something. If you want to argue that it wasn’t the fruit, but that God himself instantly wired their brains the minute they ate of that fruit, then God is to blame for the whole thing. He didn’t have to wire their brains if he didn’t want to.

If they were perfect humans at the start as is the claim, and if they were “made in God’s image” as the Bible claims they would have HAD to know the difference between good and evil. Otherwise, they would have been worse than we who are imperfect yet do know the difference: they would have been morons without any moral compass for life whatsoever. But they DIDN’T know the difference or there would have been no need for that tree. In other words they couldn't have known that disobeying the good God was the bad thing to do, verses not listening to the evil serpent was the good thing to do, because they had no concept of this.Thus there was no "original sin", because in order to sin one must understand the good/bad, right/wrong paradox

The WTS claims that Adam and Eve were created to live forever, but Gen. 3:22 says God kicked them out of the Garden so they couldn’t eat of the “tree of life” and live to “time indefinite.” This implies that until Adam and Eve ate of that tree of life, they would not be able to live not only forever, but even to “time indefinite.” Adam and Eve’s bodies were not made to live a long, long time. If they were, there would have been no need for a “tree of life.” Either they were pre-rigged in such a way that they would die unless they ate of that tree of life and that tree contained some magic potion that would undo that rigging, or God would have had to tinker with their genes after they ate of that tree to make them live long, long lives or even forever.

This is important to remember. They were NOT initially set-up to live long, long lives. One cannot argue that they were, because of that “tree of life” verse. God COULD have been a little more optimistic and created them to live long, lives, and later messed them up when they disobeyed him, but it turns out that God was a pessimist from the get-go and assumed the worse by the was he set things up. He didn’t even trust his OWN creation. Strange God, that.

Therefore, the God of Genesis created the first pair pre-supposing they would be doomed. He made the tree of knowledge overwhelmingly resistible, they succumbed and he doomed them. And us.

Furthermore, the idea that the Serpent became the father of the lie in chapter 3 is absoloutly ludacis. Please point out where he lied. If anything God lied in 2:17 when he said "for in the day you eat it you will positively die." I'm pretty sure they didn't die the day they ate from it just as the serpent said in verse 3:4, and as already covered they weren't created to live forever. He certainly didn't lie when he said in verse 5 that they would become as God(s) knowing good from evil. This is made clear by verse 22 also when God says "he has become like one of US".

The short and simple answer to your long post is LOVE and FREE WILL and can be summarized through a simple question. That is:

How would YOU know if your kids really love you with all their heart, mind and soul?

If you can answer this simple question then you’re halfway there. If not then please read on.

According to the Scriptures Adam and Eve were created perfect, with perfect minds and perfect bodies. In addition we are told that they were also created in “God’s image”. This means that they were endowed by God with abilities that surpass our current imperfect minds and bodies. In God’s “image he created them” also means that they are able to REFLECT God’s foremost qualities of Love, Wisdom, Justice and Power (in addition to the other wonderful qualities). In other words they were unique distinct separate creation by God from the animal kingdom he created from the ground. As thinking creatures they are able to comprehend things, reason things out and can communicate with their creator. This also means that they have the ability to know what was right and what was wrong – as they have conscience. They are as we say FREE MORAL AGENTS. They were also like the angelic sons of God only a little lower in abilities – but had FREE WILL.

And as free moral agents, they can make their own decisions, they were not automatons. They have the freedom to choose.

The Scriptures also reveal to us that God provided everything to Adam and Eve, all they need to sustain and enjoy life. This he did by placing them in the Garden of Eden. In there they were given a wonderful task of taking care of their new home the earth. A bright future was ahead of them and their offspring. But Jehovah God did not stop there – he also had another wonderful plan for them. They were to live on a paradise earth with perfect bodies and minds not for just thousands of years but for all eternity - because in front of them is a gift from their Creator – everlasting life. So in short there was NOTHING lacking. God’s own Word says – everything was good.

All of these was now about to be given to mankind. Question IS – IS man worthy of this gift? Will he appreciate it? Above all will they show respect and unselfish love for their Creator and Father?

Think about the implication of these questions. Millions of angels were watching and everyone was eager to know (including a rebel angel) the answer. But how will they find out? Above all how will God KNOW?

How will God know that as free moral agents, his newest addition to his family (the “sons of God”) will serve their Father and Creator willingly? How will God know that Adam and Eve will love and serve their God and Father with “all their heart, mind, soul and might” willingly?

How will God KNOW?

Should God use his power to know the future? God can easily do that you know, that is, find out what the couple will do in the future. He can also read their hearts and minds. There’s no question about it.

But would that be loving on God’s part? Of course not for Scripture says that God is Love and that there’s no badness in him.

Besides what’s the point of telling someone DO something that you already knew the outcome? Then blame them later on for their mistakes? That would be unloving and unfair, something that God will never do. In fact many times over the Scriptures say that Jehovah God cannot lie.

Will YOU do something like that to your kiddos?

So HOW will God resolve this issue in a very loving way?

Will you force your kiddos to obey and love you? Of course not - that will not make sense. How would YOU resolve it then in your case?

The simple answer is tied to my first question to you:

Here it is again:

How would YOU know if your kids really love you with all their heart, mind and soul?

Answer is, by means of a simple loving command of OBEDIENCE - a test of obedience.

So instead of looking into their hearts or looking into their future Jehovah God gave them a very simple loving command of obedience.

That is:

16 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. -- ASV

From here on Adam along with his wife Eve will have to make the decision ON THEIR OWN whether to obey God’s simple command or not. By giving this simple command, God will be able to show to ALL witnesses (in heaven and earth) what’s in man’s heart and mind. It will settle the question if they are willing to serve and love their God with “all their heart, mind, soul and might”. Their obedience also means that they are WILLING to let God determine what is “good” and what is “evil”. In other words, let God be their final moral guide.

They were also told and warned that if they chose otherwise the result will not be good for - “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

The consequence is death. Disobedience also meant that they don’t want God’s rule, – reject him as their Father and God and his Kingdom.

But as story goes an angel became wicked and wanted rule mankind himself. He took this opportunity and turned things upside down. This wicked angel made it appear that God was hiding something from them, made it appear that God was the one lying.

He said:

…Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden? “ Gen 3:1

Here was his deliberate 1st lie.

But the woman corrected him saying:

… Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat:
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Instead of listening to the woman he followed it with a 2nd lie:

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The followed with a 3rd lie:

5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened,

Then the clincher – the 4th lie:

and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

In other words Satan – this serpent – this wicked angel slandered God by accusing God of lying. This also made the “Serpent” this Satan the father of THE LIE.

Sadly - the account says:

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

So evidently, their desire to be independent from God got the better of them. The desire to be independent from God also meant that NOW “man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad”. They are now like God deciding for themselves what is “good” and what is “bad”. And because of this deliberate action they PULLED themselves away from the source of life and started to die. Although perfect in mind and body they failed the simple command to obey God – not to eat a single fruit of this particular tree (that’s in the middle of the Garden) out of the thousands of fruits in the Garden. Their action showed that they loved themselves more than God. This also showed that they have no respect for their God and showed that they did not appreciate what God is giving them – A Perfect Everlasting Happy Life on Paradise Earth. In short they were SELFISH.

This selfish desire is what drove them out of their paradise home.

Thus as children of Adam and Eve this is what they gave us – this present life. They also put mankind under the ruler ship of this wicked angel we now know as Satan the Devil.

But the scripture say:

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

.

So back to my question to you:
How would YOU know if your kids really love you with all their heart, mind and soul?

reply to post by edmc^2

And like I said – my standard is the Bible and I use extensively to detect whether “a truth” is indeed from the Word of God or not. If not then it will be fully revealed as such.

How can you say that when you use all of the different versions of the bible in your posts?

Not every bible has the exact meaning the next does... for example...

Mt 19:17
KJV
Why callest thou me good?

NIV
"Why do you ask me about what is good?"

NAS
"Why are you asking me about what is good?"

NWT
"Why do you ask me about what is good?"

Luke 4:4
KJV
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

ASV
And Jesus answered unto him, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone.

NIV
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone

.....
...
..
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Originally posted by edmc^2

How would YOU know if your kids really love you with all their heart, mind and soul?

typical...completely ignore the arguments.. and try to twist it into something it isn't...

there is no way I could know this if they didn't have the knowledge and ability to differentiate good and bad, and thus the ability to know that the life and things I give them them are good and out of love(furthermore they couldn't know that love was a goodthing vs evil)... As the bible states Adam and Eve didn't have the knowledge to know that disobeying God was a bad thing... thus your question doesn't apply to the conversation... besides that I would never use unquestioning obedience as a ruler for their love... and furthermore I don't feel the need to KNOW they love me... They tell me they do and that's enough for me...

below is what the word "image' means... not all that extra biblical man made wisdom you just spouted...

#6754 צֶלֶם tselem [tseh'-lem]

from an unused root meaning to shade; TWOT - 1923a; n m


—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) image
1a) images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)
1b) image, likeness (of resemblance)
1c) mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)


—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol:—image, vain shew.
—Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)
AV - image 16, vain shew 1; 17

and as far as your explanation of the serpent telling lies... there is not a single lie there... did you even read what I wrote? and furthermore did you read the scriptures you quoted as lies and then verse 7 which you quoted as well?

reply to post by edmc^2


When the serpent tempted Eve it came down to one question:

Who does Eve trust? God or the Serpent?

God told Adam and Eve that they would surely die if they ate the apple. The Serpent told them that they would surely not die.

The problem though was that Eve had no knowlege of Good and Evil, so she could not comprehend that the Serpent was trying to decieve her. At no point did she ever consider that the Serpent could be lying.

Therefore it cannot be said that it was a just and fair course of action for God to immediately cast out his children for one simple act of disobedience when they didn't even realise that they were doing anything wrong.

Lets imagine that you've told your child not to do something, like talk to strangers for instance. Then one day a stranger walks up to her and starts talking to her, but she tells him she's not allowed to talk to strangers, to which he replies that he knows you, her father. Its a lie, but she doesn't know it, and she trusts him. You notice this happening and go over to them. What do you do? Do you take your child and discipline her appropriately? Or do you tell her she is no longer welcome in your house because she disobeyed you, and leave her at the mercy of the stranger?

Some loving father your god is..

Originally posted by Glass
reply to post by edmc^2

 

When the serpent tempted Eve it came down to one question:

Who does Eve trust? God or the Serpent?

God told Adam and Eve that they would surely die if they ate the apple. The Serpent told them that they would surely not die.

The problem though was that Eve had no knowlege of Good and Evil, so she could not comprehend that the Serpent was trying to decieve her. At no point did she ever consider that the Serpent could be lying.

Therefore it cannot be said that it was a just and fair course of action for God to immediately cast out his children for one simple act of disobedience when they didn't even realise that they were doing anything wrong.

Lets imagine that you've told your child not to do something, like talk to strangers for instance. Then one day a stranger walks up to her and starts talking to her, but she tells him she's not allowed to talk to strangers, to which he replies that he knows you, her father. Its a lie, but she doesn't know it, and she trusts him. You notice this happening and go over to them. What do you do? Do you take your child and discipline her appropriately? Or do you tell her she is no longer welcome in your house because she disobeyed you, and leave her at the mercy of the stranger?

Some loving father your god is..

Ahh…but indeed they knew what they were doing especially Adam.

Notice what Eve said to the serpent:

At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3 But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’”

She corrected the Serpent’s lie by repeating God’s commands. She knew that the Serpent was lying but allowed herself to be lied to.

“Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression.” (1 Timothy 2:14)

Eve knew that it was wrong to eat the forbidden fruit because she knew that the consequence of eating it i - death. They knew it was wrong for they had conscience. As long as they did what was right - their conscience did not bother them. But as soon as they violated God’s command, their consciences kicked in right away and they felt ashamed.

Remember too, they were adults, not kids – fully grown man and woman, married by God as a couple. Having the ability to think and reason. It takes someone with high IO to be able to name animals according to their kinds and traits - Adam did that and Eve was his helper. So to say that they were innocent of the charges is false. They knew what they were doing.

But instead of asking for forgiveness for what they did and admit what they did, who did they blame? They blamed everyone except themselves.

“. . .Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife went into hiding from the face of Jehovah God in between the trees of the garden. 9 And Jehovah God kept calling to the man and saying to him: “Where are you?” 10 Finally he said: “Your voice I heard in the garden, but I was afraid because I was naked and so I hid myself.” 11 At that he said: “Who told you that you were naked? From the tree from which I commanded you not to eat have you eaten?” 12 And the man went on to say: “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me [fruit] from the tree and so I ate.” 13 With that Jehovah God said to the woman: “What is this you have done?” To this the woman replied: “The serpent—it deceived me and so I ate.”” (Genesis 3:8-13)

Yet in spite of what they did – God did not abandon them but took care of them and their needs, only that they are no longer permitted to enter the Garden so as not to partake of the “tree of life”.

To show that God did not abandon his children, as soon as Adam and Eve sinned, God instituted right away a solution to correct the mistake they made. That is, God will someday bring a “seed” from the woman to destroy Satan completely.

Here’s the very first prophecy:

““5 And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”” (Genesis 3:15)

The seed is no other than Jesus Christ.

“He who carries on sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from [the] beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, namely, to break up the works of the Devil.” (1 John 3:8)

16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman


How I’m not surprised why you didn’t get it.

They say – action speaks louder than words.

Remember in the Genesis account – the drama was being unfolded in front of all God’s creations.

Merely saying I love you to their Father and Creator will not suffice. Action was needed to really prove that they INDEED loved their Father and Creator.

This was very important as they were about to be given everlasting life. Any doubt as to their integrity must be settled before they are given this gift of everlasting life.

Your children will say they love you in so many ways – but one sure way of settling it is by their action.

Many loving parents – will consider first the reasons why they give gifts to their children. Do they deserve it or not? Why not? How do they know? They are careful not to spoil them but teach them responsibility.

So a simple command or house rule will show that not only the children have love for their parents and respect for them when they completely abide by your house rules. Besides house rules are not only there to train them but to protect them as well.

Like, ‘this door must remain close and you must not go in there because there’s something in there that will hurt you. ‘

Mainly saying I love you and yes dad I will obey without action will not settle the issue.

In the case of Adam and Eve they were adults and had the capacity to reason things out – out of their perfect minds. As free moral agents – like you, they had a sense of what is wrong and right. Even young ones, they have a sense of morality. They know when they did something bad even though no one told them.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the command was very simple:

“. . .“From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”” (Genesis 2:16-17)

Only by respecting God’s right to rule and obeying his loving command will reveal that indeed Adam and Eve loved their God. Once it is determined eventually – the “tree of the knowledge of good and bad” will be remove as there will no need for it anymore to be replaced by the “tree of life” – the symbol of everlasting life.


As for what you said below:

and as far as your explanation of the serpent telling lies... there is not a single lie there... did you even read what I wrote? and furthermore did you read the scriptures you quoted as lies and then verse 7 which you quoted as well?

Let’s compare:

God said the following:

“. . .And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”” (Genesis 2:16-17)

Satan’s lies:

“. . .So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?. . .” (Genesis 3:1)

And:

“. . .At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”” (Genesis 3:4-5)

God said only one tree that they can’t eat from.

Satan said – “every tree” they can’t eat from.

God said – they will positively die.

Satan said - “YOU positively will not die” then sweetened the pie so to speak.

“For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”

Only someone who refuse to see the truth will consider Satan’s lies truth.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by edmc^2

 

And like I said – my standard is the Bible and I use extensively to detect whether “a truth” is indeed from the Word of God or not. If not then it will be fully revealed as such.

How can you say that when you use all of the different versions of the bible in your posts?

Not every bible has the exact meaning the next does... for example...

Mt 19:17
KJV
Why callest thou me good?

NIV
"Why do you ask me about what is good?"

NAS
"Why are you asking me about what is good?"

NWT
"Why do you ask me about what is good?"

Luke 4:4
KJV
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

ASV
And Jesus answered unto him, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone.

NIV
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone

.....
...
..
.

"How can you say that when you use all of the different versions of the bible in your posts?"


I can confidently say this because I'm very familiar with the contents of the Bible. I know the truth that it contains so I'm able to use any version.

But as you can see - there's only one version that I quote from extensively because of it's accuracy.

It's like this:

Do you know how bank tellers are trained for spotting counterfeit bills? They get on a study program to learn, study and be familiar with the real one.

Once they they know the ins and outs of the real bill - counterfeit bills can be easily spotted.

reply to post by edmc^2

I can confidently say this because I'm very familiar with the contents of the Bible. I know the truth that it contains so I'm able to use any version.

But as you can see - there's only one version that I quote from extensively because of it's accuracy.

It seems to me you use whatever version suits your own meaning.

Perhaps you might explain what "the truth" is that it contains... without a sermon?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by edmc^2

 

I can confidently say this because I'm very familiar with the contents of the Bible. I know the truth that it contains so I'm able to use any version.
But as you can see - there's only one version that I quote from extensively because of it's accuracy.

It seems to me you use whatever version suits your own meaning.
Perhaps you might explain what "the truth" is that it contains... without a sermon?

The truth most likely is predetermined so everything is just made to fit that, no matter what it says.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by edmc^2

 

I can confidently say this because I'm very familiar with the contents of the Bible. I know the truth that it contains so I'm able to use any version.
But as you can see - there's only one version that I quote from extensively because of it's accuracy.

It seems to me you use whatever version suits your own meaning.
Perhaps you might explain what "the truth" is that it contains... without a sermon?

The truth most likely is predetermined so everything is just made to fit that, no matter what it says.

Even if that is the case we could never know it for a fact...

Im asking about the bible which he "quotes from extensively" i haven't been able to figure out which is his favorite because he uses whatever version fits his belief. He seems to think the bible is the complete word of God, but theres 25 differnent versions of the book on various websites alone, and quite a few of them were written recently

Im just wondering if he can sum up his bible without throwing a sermon down.

For some reason im expecting a "Watchtower" pamphlet

reply to post by Akragon


Obviously NWT
ASV
DBY

and the rest on occasions (for further clarification):

www.blueletterbible.org...
biblos.com...

I usually refer to the ones that used God's name - less confusion.

reply to post by edmc^2


You wrote:

["Of course if one will not consider carefully what the account is all about and lessons behind it and doesn’t consider the context then it will seem to have contradictions."]

And in our seemingly unending 'regression' of methods (how do you conclude, what you conclude), I have repeatedly asked you for YOUR way of structuring, patterning, organizing or interpretating the bible. I'm still waiting.

In my book a "I just know" really isn't an answer.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by edmc^2

 

You wrote:

["Of course if one will not consider carefully what the account is all about and lessons behind it and doesn’t consider the context then it will seem to have contradictions."]

And in our seemingly unending 'regression' of methods (how do you conclude, what you conclude), I have repeatedly asked you for YOUR way of structuring, patterning, organizing or interpretating the bible. I'm still waiting.

In my book a "I just know" really isn't an answer.

edit on 6-8-2011 by bogomil because: missing word

Like I said, the Bible interprets itself. There's no special formula to interpret it. In fact once we put our spin on it that's when we get into trouble.

Take for example the post by 'werewatchingyouman'. It's full of contradictions and inconsistencies because whomever put it together did not consider basic things - like God is love and there's no badness in him or God can't lie. What made it worse is that it was put together with the intention to portray God as wicked and a liar. So of course it will come out that way but it can easily be debunk because it's based on nonsense.

Here let's do simple test if you're up for it. Let me ask you a question about Gen 3: God, Adam and Eve.

Did God knew beforehand that Adam and Eve will eat the forbidden fruit?

If you say yes, explain why - back it up with the scriptures if you can.

Originally posted by edmc^2
reply to post by Akragon

 

Obviously NWT
ASV
DBY

and the rest on occasions (for further clarification):

www.blueletterbible.org...
biblos.com...

I usually refer to the ones that used God's name - less confusion.

Ahh i see, one of the most altered and mistranslated version of the bible that exists. Published by your religion

Im starting to understand where you're comming from now... This is why you use whatever bible you need to prove your belief. Your religion made its own alterations to that bible to conform to what fits your beliefs.

See the difference in john for example....

John 1
1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, andthe Word was a god.

KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

KJV
18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


Not to mention the hundreds of other alterations that don't even conform with the greek translation. Notice anything missing here?

Mat 18... Your bible
10 See to it that YOU men do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell YOU that their angels in heaven always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven. 11 ——

12 “What do YOU think? If a certain man comes to have a hundred sheep and one of them gets strayed, will he not leave the ninety-nine upon the mountains and set out on a search for the one that is straying?


KJV
10Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

Theres at least 47 verses that have been completely removed from YOUR bible...

Yet in your own bible you'll find this little verse...

2 YOU must not add to the word that I am commanding YOU, neither must YOU take away from it, so as to keep the commandments of Jehovah YOUR God that I am commanding YOU.

NOT to mention of course....

Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

And your little cults favorite book....

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.


Interesting eh...

JW's bend what is in the bible to whatever meaning they need at the time. Your bible has been revised several times and does not translate the original texts.... they mearly paraphrase, meaning once again... Your bible is not infallible, and is not the complete word of God as you claim.

I call Shenanigans on you!