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'Mousetrails' and the dark side of the Old Testament

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posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 10:32 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
What verses? Where a holy and righteous God passes judgment on wicked and rebellious people?

*gasp* What horror!!!!


The Old Testament demonstrates that the biblical god is anything but "righteous". In fact, he's one of the most abhorrent characters in all of literature.


What's unrighteous is your persistent resistance to be subservient to the Lord God. So what he ordered the deaths of millions of people ? Understand the time, Israel was just establishing itself as a new nation, more importantly it is the land that is to give the word of God, and will birth the messiah. So the survival of the nation was of utmost importance, therefore due to the volitility of the arab world to the Jewish people, just like today, the threat must be eliminated. Israel, as an immature nation with a very new religious system needed to be sheltered from the idolatry of the Canaanite nations, who would have corrupted Israel's worship of the true God and garbled its message to the rest of the world. I find it equally absurd that you would even try to vindicate the ways of the Lord God with your inferior human complex. So is he not to your liking? Are you going to swap god's until you find one to your liking? That's selfish.
edit on 19-2-2012 by CaptainNemo because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 11:07 PM
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reply to post by CaptainNemo
 


What is absurd is thinking the religion of the Canaanites was any different than Abraham's.
The Hebrews were completely assimilated into the Canaanite culture to where the Hebrews were considered by their neighbors as Canaanites.
Abraham was allied with the local rulers and remember how he worshiped at their local shrine to whoever at Salem.



posted on Feb, 19 2012 @ 11:37 PM
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reply to post by CaptainNemo
 



Are you going to swap god's until you find one to your liking? That's selfish.


What? I thought that was called idolatry?

Some people have no functioning grasp of the concept of a Sovereign, Holy, and Righteous God.

edit on 19-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 12:08 AM
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reply to post by CaptainNemo
 


Then you do agree it was YHWH who sired Cain?
You are aware of the vast semantic changes in translation occuring in the majority of Bibles, such as:

New International Version:

1 Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man.”

A more accurate translation is:

King James Version:

1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bore Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

It is very clear in Genesis 5 that Cain and Abel are NOT included in the book of the generations of Adam.

In the New Testament, many Bibles substitute the original Greek words, "theos" (God), "kurios" (Lord), and "eloi" (My God), with "Jehovah", or "Yahweh". This is odd considering Christ was the leader of a movement that held the Hebrew god, "Yaldabaoth", or "YHWH" to be a "murderer" and "the father of lies". John 8:44

It is interesting to compare YHWH's offer to Abram to grant all the land, cattle, silver and gold in the world on the condition Abram agrees to worship him with that of Satan and Jesus in Matthew 4: 8-9

8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Jesus, unlike Abram, refuses temptation.

Surely, the God of whom Jesus speaks, saying, “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. Matthew 5: 43-45 is not the same god as YHWH, who commands in Deuteronomy:

12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God is giving you to live in, anyone saying that 13 some worthless men have gone out from among you and have seduced the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘(R)Let us go and serve other gods’ (whom you have not known), 14 then you shall investigate and search out and inquire thoroughly. If it is true and the matter established that this abomination has been done among you, 15 (S)you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, [h]utterly destroying it and all that is in it and its cattle with the edge of the sword. 16 (T)Then you shall gather all its booty into the middle of its open square and burn the city and all its booty with fire as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; and it shall be a (U)ruin forever. It shall never be rebuilt. 17 Nothing from that which is put under the ban shall cling to your hand, in order that the LORD may turn from (V)His burning anger and (W)show mercy to you, and have compassion on you and (X)make you increase, just (Y)as He has sworn to your fathers, 18 [j]if you will listen to the voice of the LORD your God, [k]keeping all His commandments which I am commanding you today, [l]and doing what is right in the sight of the LORD your God.



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 01:52 AM
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Then you do agree it was YHWH who sired Cain? You are aware of the vast semantic changes in translation occuring in the majority of Bibles, such as: New International Version: 1 Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man.”


Adam sired Cain, yet the Lord God's intervention in these processes within the Old Testament quite prevalent. In all of said instances a message from the Lord God himself or a messenger preceeds the birth. For instance when the Lord God intervened in the impregnation of Abraham's sterile wife:

"And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir."

And surely as promised in genesis 15:4, Isaac is born in genesis 21. So we can conclude that Eve was simply offering up praise.

And I would hardly call those vast, you know how those publishing companies are




In the New Testament, many Bibles substitute the original Greek words, "theos" (God), "kurios" (Lord), and "eloi" (My God), with "Jehovah", or "Yahweh". This is odd considering Christ was the leader of a movement that held the Hebrew god, "Yaldabaoth", or "YHWH" to be a "murderer" and "the father of lies". John 8:44


Well using the same bibles rendering those translations let's look at John 8:44:

"You belong to your father, the devil..."

Are you trying to say that Yahweh is the devil? Please clarify.



It is interesting to compare YHWH's offer to Abram to grant all the land, cattle, silver and gold in the world on the condition Abram agrees to worship him with that of Satan and Jesus in Matthew 4: 8-9


So you are asserting that Yahweh is the Devil...
And Yahweh never promises Abram such a thing. When Abram and his wife Sarai enter Egypt, the Pharaoh wants Sarai for her beauty. Abram essentially trades her for the gold, silver, cattle, land and servants. He subsequently gets her back as plagues are issued unto Egypt because Sarai is of course married already, Pharaoh can't have her and quickly gives her back. Abram meanwhile gets to keep his share




Surely, the God of whom Jesus speaks, saying, “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. Matthew 5: 43-45 is not the same god as YHWH, who commands in Deuteronomy:


Yeshua is the word of God and the Old Testament or the past, but at the same time he lives breathes and teaches, he IS the new law and the Old law at the same time. Yahweh destroyed his creations a total of 3 times, each time trying again with a different approach, but his creations persistently resisted. What makes you think the Lord God is so staunch.? He simply tries a different approach...

Regarding the allowed wholesale massacre of entire cities and peoples, Yahweh finally get's tired after the Babel incident and divides the lands up according to their inheritance. The Lord god's or Yahweh's part was Israel, and this is where he hereforth is known as the God of Israel. Israel is the apple of his eye. The aforementioned nations are given up to idolaraty and are now enemies or allies to Israel NO exceptions. If you did not submit to the Lord's nation you were slaughtered. Understand the contexts, Israel is the nation whose patriarch had not strayed from the path of righteousness (Abraham) and it is to be the word of God. More importantly it will be the nation to birth the messiah Yeshua, so you see it was of utmost importance that the survivability of Israel be ensured. Just like modern times the arab world wants to eradicate the Jewish state...Same thing back then. God isn't nice enough for you so you call him the Devil? You don't even know the Devil hahahah... You should be on the floor thanking him for sacrificing his only son, for if he had not surely there would be reckoning for your blasphemy and transgressions.

edit on 20-2-2012 by CaptainNemo because: (no reason given)
edit on 20-2-2012 by CaptainNemo because: (no reason given)
edit on 20-2-2012 by CaptainNemo because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 02:50 AM
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reply to post by CaptainNemo
 


CaptainNemo said: "So we can conclude that Eve was simply offering up praise."

Yes, but the English translation of Genesis 4:1 twists words around to make it seem as if Adam fathered Cain. It never says this in the original Hebrew version. It is, in fact, quite clear that it is YHWH who sired Cain and Abel. Further still, the Apocryphon of John specifically details YHWH's seduction and impregnation of Eve. Why is it that in Genesis Cain's descendants are listed separately from Adams? Why is it that Cain is not included in the geneology of Adam?

Also, consider the following excerpt: "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown." Genesis 6:4 Without doubt, it is stated that YHWH's kind were rampantly seducing and copulating with human females. So is it any stretch of the imagination to consider YHWH doing the same to Eve, especially when it is sworn by John the Apostle that this is what actually occurred? Is John lying? Is the OT lying?


Captain Nemo said: "You belong to your father, the devil..." Are you trying to say that Yahweh is the devil? Please clarify.

When you read the letters of the Apostles that were omitted from the Bible, that is precisely what they are saying.


Captain Nemo wrote: "When Abram and his wife Sarai enter Egypt, the Pharaoh wants Sarai for her beauty. Abram essentially trades her for the gold, silver, cattle, land and servants. He subsequently gets her back as plagues are issued unto Egypt because Sarai is of course married already, Pharaoh can't have her and quickly gives her back. Abram meanwhile gets to keep his share"

Yes, YHWH watches as Abram deceives the Pharaoh, pimps out his own wife for material gain, then casts spells of sickness on the Pharaoh as "punishment" allowing Abram to run off with the gold. Compare with:

"Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back." Luke 6:30


Captain Nemo said: "Yeshua is the word of God and the Old Testament or the past, but at the same time he lives breathes and teaches, he IS the new law and the Old law at the same time."

If that is so, then why does Jesus say, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20
The Pharisees, as you might know, were primarily Kenites, and the Kenites, as you are probably aware, trace their ancestry back to Cain.

One last comparison:

YHWH of the Old Testament: Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. Ezekiel 9:5

Jesus of the New Testament: People were bringing little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Mark 10:13-14



edit on 20-2-2012 by 1nOne because: (no reason given)
edit on 20-2-2012 by 1nOne because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 05:43 AM
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reply to post by CaptainNemo
 

What's unrighteous is your persistent resistance to be subservient to the Lord God.
What is demanded of God today is belief in Jesus, something you apparently have none of so I have to assume you are someone who fancies himself as a supporter of Judaism or Zionism in general and is not actually a Christian, otherwise you would have seen the problem with your statement as soon as you wrote it down. So you have to be a heathen with no true understanding of God's desire for us.

So what he ordered the deaths of millions of people ?
We don't know if any of that ever happened. Judaism is a self-nullifying religion because the basis of it is not faith but concrete evidence. What it does to validate itself is to point at all these physical things. An example would be seem in the Gospel of Mathew where the disciples point out to Jesus the great stones that were part of the temple base platform. That to them would have been evidence that Judaism was a true religion because don't we have the evidence right here, these stones testify that there was this person, Solomon who made this area by stacking up these huge stones. Now we understand through the studies by science that they were actually put there by Herod, who was not a Jew but an Edomite. The point being, it turns out there is no physical evidence, where reading the book, it is saying, 'See here, do we not have this monument at this place to this day which testifies of these events?'

Understand the time, Israel was just establishing itself as a new nation, . . .
Israel was created as a nation in Egypt, where circumstances made them a distinct people from the normal Egyptians as a people set apart, where if they had been in Canaan, they would have been just ordinary Canaanites. There was no reason for them to move back to Canaan other than supposedly they were being oppressed.

. . . more importantly it is the land that is to give the word of God, and will birth the messiah.
This was not something understood by the people in this mythology. It was not until the time of the Babylonian captivity that there was any concept of a Messiah, since they had kings up until then. It was not until the time of the Seleucids, after the death of Alexander the Great, that the concept grew into anything significant, since under Persian rule, they were reasonably well off. The only motivation for these mythological people of the Old Testament was killing the inhabitants of the land in order to take it for themselves.

So the survival of the nation was of utmost importance,. . .
They were "surviving" in Egypt.

. . . therefore due to the volitility of the arab world to the Jewish people,
There was no such thing as Jews back in the legendary times written in the book of lore we call the Old Testament. These were not "Arabs", they were the ordinary inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites.

. . . just like today, the threat must be eliminated. Israel, . . .
There has not been a thing called Israel since the time of the Assyrians. What we have today is an illegal Zionist regime occupying Palestine, calling itself Israel. Calling yourself something does not make it so. It was not constituted by God but by evil men who were murderers and thieves.

. . . as an immature nation with a very new religious system needed to be sheltered from the idolatry of the Canaanite nations, who would have corrupted Israel's worship of the true God and garbled its message to the rest of the world.
They were already idolatrous, remember the golden calf? And they were still idolatrous right up until the time they ceased to be a kingdom, where they made two new golden calves to represent their god, one each for two temples dedicated to them.

I find it equally absurd that you would even try to vindicate the ways of the Lord God with your inferior human complex. So is he not to your liking? Are you going to swap god's until you find one to your liking? That's selfish.
It is perfectly reasonable to question an old mythology which is designed basically to instill into the believers of it a feeling of a certain pride of identity and a feeling of superiority for themselves and a disregard for anyone else, to where slaughtering them is not felt as a crime but a worship of their god who drinks the blood of the slaughtered innocents.
edit on 20-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 06:31 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

You're still ignoring what I said. I said earlier, perhaps I should have clarified that none of us are innocent from the perspective of God. All have sinned except for Jesus and the holy angels. The rest of us need a Savior.
You are still deflecting.
The posts I was referring to were at the beginning of the thread, before it got off-topic and into the concept of salvation theory.
It was about people being killed in hideous ways as their towns and cities were destroyed around them, sparing no one.
They were not receiving instruction to be better people but being cut down.
Specifically I was asking about your reply to such an accusation against the mythological god in these fables that you take as historical facts. Your answer was to justify all this killing by quoting a verse in Genesis about punishment for murder being done by other people.
These are stories that may have a grain of truth to them but the fact that you take them as real, and then work to justify what they tell, that indicates to me a lack of the sort of compassion which would identify someone as a true Christian. I realize you imagine that compassion is misplaced in light of the world's soon coming destruction. To me this is further indictment against what I think of as the false doctrine of the end of the world, which is it promotes a callousness and unfeeling towards the suffering of others and so is anti-Christian. I have found no place on this thread where you showed any regard for anyone's salvation than your own. Your stated purpose was to "set the record straight", not something like caring if people are lost.



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 06:47 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Some people have no functioning grasp of the concept of a Sovereign, Holy, and Righteous God.

Like people who do not accept that the god of the Old Testament is not an accurate portrayal of the real God, who is the Father of Jesus Christ. This is why we have the New Testament, to replace the old one with a newer, better one and with a better god, and what explains a loving God who sent his son to save the world, not to destroy it, or to give it to just one family line or anything like that. The Jews said "Our Father is Abraham", and Jesus said if you want to believe in the real god, you must recognize God, the god who Jesus was the son of, as our father who is the father of all who believe in Jesus as the Christ.
edit on 20-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 07:04 AM
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reply to post by 1nOne
 

It is interesting to compare YHWH's offer to Abram to grant all the land, cattle, silver and gold in the world on the condition Abram agrees to worship him with that of Satan and Jesus in Matthew 4: 8-9

The basic idea here is right, I think, that diabolo in the Mathew story is offering Jesus to be made a political figure much like what a lot of Jews were expecting, and would have been willing to quote scripture to back him up.
I would suggest you read a thread,
Jesus said, "Away from me Satan..."
www.abovetopsecret.com...
where the author echoes some of your thoughts on the subject.

The story is very similar to the story Moses in the wilderness of Sinai finding an angel who demands worship by removing his sandals. That angel promised in exchange for worship, the land they desired what had to be taken by force if they wanted to have it now. Jesus mentions later, people who would take the kingdom by force.
The difference was that Jesus had the ability to distinguish between God and Satan, having previously known the real God.
edit on 20-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 07:21 AM
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reply to post by CaptainNemo
 

Yeshua is the word of God and the Old Testament or the past, but at the same time he lives breathes and teaches, he IS the new law and the Old law at the same time.

Right here you show yourself as the follower of anti-christ, where the real Christ is Jesus, you are presenting another, substitute Christ.
Jesus is not the word. Use your superior intellect you claim for yourself to explain that. Jesus gave the word of God which God chose. See my post on that at www.abovetopsecret.com...
Jesus is the name of God. The I Am. The new YHWH who replaced the old one which was an angel operating as an agent and using that as an authorizing designation.
The word was something Jesus spoke, but the actual thing he said were what God decided He wanted Jesus to say.

. . . he IS the new law and the Old law at the same time.
Jesus is not the Law but is the giver of the Law, as the new Moses. Jesus was describing the true fundamental Law which was based on spiritual principles and not ceremonies and sacrifices and temples. He asks the questions necessary to get the answer to what the Law was, which was love God and love others. Once that is established as the Law in essence, he could proceed to give the new Law according to him, while still maintaining what had been agreed on was the foundational principles of the old Law.
edit on 20-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 07:37 AM
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reply to post by CaptainNemo
 

Yahweh destroyed his creations a total of 3 times, each time trying again with a different approach, but his creations persistently resisted.

So what cult is it exactly which teaches you this sort of nonsense, or is this something you have discovered in your research, that YHWH was in the habit of making and destroying creations?
The Book of Genesis credits YHWH with planting a garden.
The Elohim gets credit for making the bigger creation.



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 09:46 AM
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reply to post by CaptainNemo
 



Well using the same bibles rendering those translations let's look at John 8:44:

"You belong to your father, the devil..."

Are you trying to say that Yahweh is the devil? Please clarify.



Ask him what "Eliyahu" (Elijah) means in Aramaic. This will be funny.



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



There has not been a thing called Israel since the time of the Assyrians.


Peter addresses the crowd at Pentecost as both "Ye men of Judea" and "Ye men of Israel" in the same speech, Paul calls himself both an "Israelite" and a "Jew". The terms are used interchangeably after the Babylonian captivity in the OT books.

edit on 20-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 09:53 AM
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reply to post by 1nOne
 


God asks Cain where his "brother" Abel is.



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Some people have no functioning grasp of the concept of a Sovereign, Holy, and Righteous God.

Like people who do not accept that the god of the Old Testament is not an accurate portrayal of the real God, who is the Father of Jesus Christ. This is why we have the New Testament, to replace the old one with a newer, better one and with a better god, and what explains a loving God who sent his son to save the world, not to destroy it, or to give it to just one family line or anything like that. The Jews said "Our Father is Abraham", and Jesus said if you want to believe in the real god, you must recognize God, the god who Jesus was the son of, as our father who is the father of all who believe in Jesus as the Christ.


Jesus had no problem with the OT, in fact, that's what He always quoted from. What harebrained book are you reading now?



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 10:10 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



The new YHWH who replaced the old one which was an angel operating as an agent and using that as an authorizing designation.


Wow, what do you think "Eliyahu" (Elijah) means in the Aramaic? Jesus's Hebrew name is Yahshua, what do you think that means? I'll give you a hint, both are what's called a "consecrated name" which means it carries the name of God.



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by CaptainNemo
 

Yahweh destroyed his creations a total of 3 times, each time trying again with a different approach, but his creations persistently resisted.

So what cult is it exactly which teaches you this sort of nonsense, or is this something you have discovered in your research, that YHWH was in the habit of making and destroying creations?
The Book of Genesis credits YHWH with planting a garden.
The Elohim gets credit for making the bigger creation.


YHWH is His proper name, Elohim is a plurality of "God" used in a singular context, it's a title.



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 10:33 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Peter addresses the crowd at Pentecost as both "Ye men of Judea" and "Ye men of Israel" in the same speech, Paul calls himself both an "Israelite" and a "Jew". The terms are used interchangeably after the Babylonian captivity in the OT books.
By heredity.
I am Danish by blood though I have never been to Denmark and I am not a citizen of Denmark.



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 10:38 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Jesus had no problem with the OT, in fact, that's what He always quoted from. What harebrained book are you reading now?
The devil gave Jesus a problem using the OT, in the temptation in the wilderness, so he had to use a quote from it to throw back at him.
The pharisees gave Jesus problems with the OT so he had to use quotes from it to throw back at them.
The disciples gave him problems with the OT so he had to quote it back at them.
The Sanhedrin gave Jesus problems with the OT so he had to quote it back at them.






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