'Mousetrails' and the dark side of the Old Testament

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

It's a disaster because the concept is nonsensical. God sets up a rule that requires blood sacrifice. He sends his son to earth and accepts him as a blood sacrifice (instead of just eliminating the sacrifice requirement). It's laughably absurd.

Really, Socrates grasped the seemingly impossible dilemma. Just forgiving without penalty would compromise God's righteousness.
“It may be that the Deity can forgive sins, but I do not see how,” ~ Socrates, BC

Here you are quoting a pagan philosopher to describe Justice according to your own philosophy, instead of using the New Testament to understand how it is we can be saved.

No, actually I was pointing out to an Atheist that another unbeliever had no problem understanding the paradox of having a perfectly holy, righteous, and just God and Him forgiving sins. It would immediately make Him not a just God. You had no problem quoting an Agnostic unbeliever in regards to which scriptures are inspired or not.

Here you are doing a round-about explanation that I would classify as a blood-for-sins transaction where Jesus is the payee, and God is the recipient of such payment.

Nope, that's an absurd idea. It's not a ransom, it was justice. Father judged all sin at Calvary in Christ. He became sin, and Father judged all sin right there at the cross 2,000 years ago. We either believe that Jesus did for us or we reject it. Did you at all pay attention to the Passover feast? Did you not study it and how every detail was a picture of Christ?

All of our sin was placed on Christ Jesus by Father at Calvary.

reply to post by jmdewey60

This was attacking the OP where he is describing a book he read called "Mousetrails", and the OP is asking why Christians don't talk about the atrocities perpetrated in the name of God in the OT.

He didn't say in the name of God, he said by God. He's blaming God for being God basically. I myself think we should let Him be sovereign, it's His universe and all.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Oh that's pretty neat, I don't think it meant that nonsense either.

What I am quoting above, in this post, is what you just wrote last night.
This was your response to my post yesterday where I said:
"I don't think it meant sanctioning genocide to kill innocent women and children for idolatry to a city or national god who did not happen to go by the name, YHWH."

What I was talking about here was a comment you made months ago, on page 1 of this thread to Nammu.
To quote him:
"Seems to me its all a huge excuse for the ancient Israeli's murdering, raping and enslaving anyone that believed differently to them. "

So this shows to me that you do believe exactly as I described, where I am saying what I do not think the verse in Genesis (that you gave to Nammu to explain why people do the killing for God, instead of God doing the killing Himself) is giving sanction to. So either you have repented of your earlier belief or you did not bother to look at your own post I was commenting on and were just making random remarks to disagree with whatever I said.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Oh that's pretty neat, I don't think it meant that nonsense either.

What I am quoting above, in this post, is what you just wrote last night.
This was your response to my post yesterday where I said:
"I don't think it meant sanctioning genocide to kill innocent women and children for idolatry to a city or national god who did not happen to go by the name, YHWH."

What I was talking about here was a comment you made months ago, on page 1 of this thread to Nammu.
To quote him:
"Seems to me its all a huge excuse for the ancient Israeli's murdering, raping and enslaving anyone that believed differently to them. "

So this shows to me that you do believe exactly as I described, where I am saying what I do not think the verse in Genesis (that you gave to Nammu to explain why people do the killing for God, instead of God doing the killing Himself) is giving sanction to. So either you have repented of your earlier belief or you did not bother to look at your own post I was commenting on and were just making random remarks to disagree with whatever I said.

LOL, I STILL think that quote is a nonsensical idea, even after you explaining it in great detail. Secondly, in your idea of God in the OT, (it is your idea of God, you tried to pass it off as mine), if they are being judged for "idolatry" then they are not "innocent". There are no "innocent" people in the Bible other than Jesus and the holy angels.

Humans are never described as "innocent", except in the creation account before Eve was tempted and Adam chose to join her in her rebellion against God.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

There are no "innocent" people in the Bible other than Jesus and the holy angels.

Job disagrees.
9:23 If a scourge brings sudden death, he mocks at the despair of the innocent.

So does David.
Psalms 94:21 They conspire against the blameless, and condemn to death the innocent.

So does Solomon.
Proverbs 6:17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

So does Isaiah.
5:23 They pronounce the guilty innocent for a payoff, they ignore the just cause of the innocent.

So does Samuel.
1 Samuel 19:5 He risked his life when he struck down the Philistine and the Lord gave all Israel a great victory. When you saw it, you were happy. So why would you sin against innocent blood by putting David to death for no reason?”
2 Kings 24:4 Because he killed innocent people and stained Jerusalem with their blood, the Lord was unwilling to forgive them.

So does Moses.
Exodus 23:7 Keep your distance from a false charge – do not kill the innocent and the righteous, for I will not justify the wicked.

So does Joel.
3:19 Egypt will be desolate and Edom will be a desolate wilderness, because of the violence they did to the people of Judah, 1 in whose land they shed innocent blood.

So does Jeremiah.
7:6 Stop oppressing foreigners who live in your land, children who have lost their fathers, and women who have lost their husbands. Stop killing innocent people in this land. Stop paying allegiance to other gods. That will only bring about your ruin.

So does Daniel.
6:22 My God sent his angel and closed the lions’ mouths so that they have not harmed me, because I was found to be innocent before him. Nor have I done any harm to you, O king.”

So does Jesus.
Matthew 10:16 “I am sending you out like sheep surrounded by wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

So does Paul.
Romans 16:19 Your obedience is known to all and thus I rejoice over you. But I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Job disagrees.

Sorry, I should have clarified. There are none "innocent" from God's perspective other than Christ and the holy angels. We humans tend to judge on a curve.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Job disagrees.

Sorry, I should have clarified. There are none "innocent" from God's perspective other than Christ and the holy angels. We humans tend to judge on a curve.

Are you saying that you have a special knowledge of how God views people that comes from someplace other than the Bible?
Are you now greater than all the Prophets who have gone before and the Apostles, and The Lord's anointed including David and Solomon and Jesus himself?
It looks like you are claiming the Bible is merely the work of Man and you know God better than the people who wrote the Bible. Did I understand you right?

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Job disagrees.

Sorry, I should have clarified. There are none "innocent" from God's perspective other than Christ and the holy angels. We humans tend to judge on a curve.

Are you saying that you have a special knowledge of how God views people that comes from someplace other than the Bible?
Are you now greater than all the Prophets who have gone before and the Apostles, and The Lord's anointed including David and Solomon and Jesus himself?

edit on 19-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Common sense. Sin passed to all mankind through Adam. That was the reason for the virgin birth. If we all have son then none of us are innocent from God's perspective. He compares us to Christ. We humans grade on a curve, we compare each other to each other.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Common sense. Sin passed to all mankind through Adam. That was the reason for the virgin birth. If we all have son then none of us are innocent from God's perspective. He compares us to Christ. We humans grade on a curve, we compare each other to each other.

So what makes sense to you trumps the word?
Regardless of the circumstance surrounding his conception, Jesus was still by lineage a son of Eve. Jesus was a human being. Are you saying The Messiah did not come in the flesh?

In Genesis it gives a justification for the flood by saying that all the people did nothing but evil all the time. The idea is that there were some especially bad people and the ones who replaced them, after the flood, would not be as bad. What you are doing is removing that justification by claiming that we are the same as those people The Lord killed in the flood.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Common sense. Sin passed to all mankind through Adam. That was the reason for the virgin birth. If we all have son then none of us are innocent from God's perspective. He compares us to Christ. We humans grade on a curve, we compare each other to each other.

So what makes sense to you trumps the word?
Regardless of the circumstance surrounding his conception, Jesus was still by lineage a son of Eve. Jesus was a human being. Are you saying The Messiah did not come in the flesh?

In Genesis it gives a justification for the flood by saying that all the people did nothing but evil all the time. The idea is that there were some especially bad people and the ones who replaced them, after the flood, would not be as bad. What you are doing is removing that justification by claiming that we are the same as those people The Lord killed in the flood.

edit on 19-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

No, you have the cause and effect backwards. I believe its common sense BECAUSE OF the Word. It says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The only sinless person in the Bible is Jesus.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, you have the cause and effect backwards. I believe its common sense BECAUSE OF the Word. It says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The only sinless person in the Bible is Jesus.

We are talking about innocence.
Nammu asked you if this was a justification to do bad things like rape, theft, and murder because they don't believe the same as you.
Your answer to Nammu was a justification for being punished in this world for murder.
Now you are saying basically everyone should be put to death by other men for no other crime than to have been born.
You are jumping right from people killing criminals guilty of murder, to people who have never committed any crime, by using the same verse.
The topic of the thread is people being killed, supposedly by order of the God of Israel.
This is not God sending bolts of lightning down on the guilty, but people sacking cities waving the banner of a deity.

The god of the Old Testament is not the God of the New Testament.

The god of the OT is Yaldabaoth, Yahweh,or Jahbulon: the Demiurge, Satan, who is worshipped by the Hebrews, modern day Jews, the Illuminati and the Freemasons.

Jesus never once referred to God using the Hebrew tetragrammaton appellation , YHWH.
If you read the Bible in its original script, Koine Greek, this becomes very evident.

One of the greatest lies in the history of mankind has been the cover-up of YHWH's impregnation of Eve spawning Cain and Able:

Forsooth Adam knew Eve his wife, which conceived, and childed Cain, and said, I have gotten a man by YHWH.
Genesis 4:1

And Genesis 5:

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him (A)in the likeness of God. 2 He created them (B)male and female, and He (C)blessed them and named them [a]Man in the day when they were created.
3 When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth. 4 Then the days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years, and he had other sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.

6 Seth lived one hundred and five years, and became the father of Enosh. 7 Then Seth lived eight hundred and seven years after he became the father of Enosh, and he had other sons and daughters. 8 So all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years, and he died.

Jesus was preaching against the corrupt blood sacrifice profanity of the god of the Hebrews. It is for this reason, the Pharisees of the Sandhedrin (largely Kenites, "of Cain") had Yeshua crucified.

44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
John 8:44-45

During the 3rd - 4th century, many of the Gospels of the Apostles were destroyed by the emerging Catholic Church. These were rediscovered in 1945 in Nag Hammadi, Egypt. Read the Apocryphon of John for a true understanding of Genesis.

edit on 19-2-2012 by 1nOne because: (no reason given)

reply to post by 1nOne


Where do you get this Yeshua name?
Is that in the Nag Hammadi Library.
Maybe you are discounting the Greek New Testament that calls Christ by his given name, Jesus.
Jesus said he was the I Am, meaning the one who carries on this planet the name of God.
Jesus is the new YHWH, based on that title, but not the same person as who had that title earlier.
Jesus came from Heaven, Not: wandering the earth striking down nations.
That was someone else.
Jesus said no one has seen the Father.
That excludes the person formerly going by YHWH.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by 1nOne

 

Where do you get this Yeshua name?
Is that in the Nag Hammadi Library.
Maybe you are discounting the Greek New Testament that calls Christ by his given name, Jesus.
Jesus said he was the I Am, meaning the one who carries on this planet the name of God.
Jesus is the new YHWH, based on that title, but not the same person as who had that title earlier.
Jesus came from Heaven, Not: wandering the earth striking down nations.
That was someone else.
Jesus said no one has seen the Father.
That excludes the person formerly going by YHWH.

edit on 19-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

From where do you get this, "Jesus", name?
In Greek (and Latin, and Hebrew and Aramaic) there is no "J" sound.

www.plim.org...

reply to post by 1nOne

In Greek (and Latin, and Hebrew and Aramaic) there is no "J" sound.

That is not right.
There just was not a letter, J.
See my thread on pronouncing the name, Jesus.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by jmdewey60


I suggest re-reading what I said, it appears you've missed a few details.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I suggest re-reading what I said, it appears you've missed a few details.

I'm re-reading all your posts on this thread.
one interesting comment by you is on www.abovetopsecret.com...

Murder means taking innocent life.

According to this, then there is no such thing as murder since there is no innocent people according to what you said this morning.

reply to post by jmdewey60


You're still ignoring what I said. I said earlier, perhaps I should have clarified that none of us are innocent from the perspective of God. All have sinned except for Jesus and the holy angels. The rest of us need a Savior.