'Mousetrails' and the dark side of the Old Testament

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I don't know why folks think justification is the finish line.

What "folks" are you talking about?
One of the "great men" I was talking about is on this forum and maybe you could ask him to help you out understanding justification because he is better at explaining it than I. That is, if you really want to know.

It's "folks" in a random sense. No thanks, I place my trust in what the Word says. Anyone trying to teach a theology of justification based even partially on works is not something I'm interested in. I seek no glory in my justification, it all belongs to Christ.

Nice little slogan but are you sure about that and what exactly is it that gives you that surety, that you are not mistaken?

You like that? Should I get Ephesians 2:8-9 bumper stickers and T-shirts made? The Word gives me that surety. I don't try and lean upon my own understanding, I have my faith and trust in the Word. If the Word says I am saved by grace, through faith, and it's a free gift of God then I believe it. When Jesus says that He will not cast away anyone who calls upon His name, I believe it. When the Word says there in no condemnation for anyone in Christ, I believe it. When the Word says anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved, I believe it. If the Word says that if I confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in my heart that God raised Him from the dead I will be saved, I believe it.

Could you point that out to me, specifically?
Salvation is only the beginning. Where is that, or what passage in the N.T. do you interpret to mean that?

Paul stressed in Titus that we are to show a pattern of good works (2:6), to be zealous of good works (2:13), to be ready to every good work (3:1), to maintain good works (3:8,14). These are instructions for the Christian, not the unbeliever for justification. I've said this several times, and it applies yet again. We are not justified BY our good works, but we are justified to do good works.

When a man is born again and justified he is a new creature in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). Instead of living our old life we are alive to Christ, to do good works for His glory and our joy. Rewards are given for faithfulness, rewards can be lost for works done in the flesh without the power and leading of the Holy Spirit (wood, hay, and stubble). Now someone born again is required to be productive in Christ, to be zealous of doing good works for Him and His kingdom. Those works don't justify us, they are done in response TO our gifted justification. We were called to Christ even before the world began (1 Timothy 1:9).

reply to post by NOTurTypical

These are instructions for the Christian, not the unbeliever for justification.

Titus 2:6 Encourage younger men to be self-controlled.
Titus 2:14 He gave himself for us to set us free from every kind of lawlessness and to purify for himself a people who are truly his, who are eager to do good.

Wow! Some extreme cherry picking through the scripture you claim to believe in and not in teachings.
You cite verse 13 while quoting from verse 14, saying zealous (where the translation I am using says eager), without quoting the actual verse. Why would that be? Is there a problem here, with the verse I just quoted above, verse 14? Why did you skip over that part and say all we need to do is to have a certain attitude? Could it be that you do not like the idea that we were saved to be perfect? Any special reason why that may be the case?
Is it that this verse points out that the ones who can not be lost out of the hand of Jesus is only referring to those who "are his", who this verse describes as being pure?

Could it the case that you are completely wrong and that we are saved by faith because Faith is the instrument for our salvation because it is this that instructs us into being righteous, as Jesus is righteous?
Faith is free, it is a gift given to us and we can not create that faith ourselves.
That we are made right (justified) by faith? Is that possible?
We can not boast about our good works and our holiness and our perfection and our righteousness and our cleanness and purity, because it is not of our own doing, because it is of this miraculous power of God, this power freely given to us and does not come from us and is not because we are superior to others but it is our saviour who is superior, the saviour who can truly save us from our sins?
This question is moot if we have none of those attributes to even consider boasting about, is that not true?
Do you deny the power of the Holy Spirit when you claim these things are not doable or necessary?
Are you committing the unpardonable sin when you blaspheme the Spirit of God in this way?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

When a man is born again and justified he is a new creature in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). Instead of living our old life we are alive to Christ, to do good works for His glory and our joy. Rewards are given for faithfulness, rewards can be lost for works done in the flesh without the power and leading of the Holy Spirit (wood, hay, and stubble). Now someone born again is required to be productive in Christ, to be zealous of doing good works for Him and His kingdom. Those works don't justify us, they are done in response TO our gifted justification.

OK! Let's do some Bible study, will we?
Our verse for today is Second Corinthians, chapter 5, verse 17. Let's all open our Bibles and go to that page and read along. Why don't we take a look at the entire passage, starting at verse 11? Paul is seemingly talking about himself and his associates in preaching the good news to others. "We are well know to you, and I hope that we are well know to your consciences, too." So he is saying, you have seen us and have heard us and heard talk of us, and we have become familiar people to you. Then he is emphasising that what is important for the people to get from all this is what? Be happy? No. Feel comfortable? No. Have no worries whatsoever but total confidence in our selves and in the future and to be planning our lives in heaven? No. Well what sort of thoughts should the people have about Paul and his teachings? Their consciences should be awakened and being put to full use. That's what is the thing they should take away from their experience of having the Apostle to the Lord in their midst.
Paul goes on and brings up what some people think of him and probably a lot of people think he is crazy and it seems like he means those who disagree with him over the question of circumcision. He wants to be sane enough to make it understandable and sensible, the message he does have, about true righteousness and not just the outward sign that others seem to be more interested in. Something they can take to heart to counteract those teachers of the letter of the old law. Is his thought that he wants to leave with them to argue with those legalists, that righteousness is not necessary? Let's see.
Paul says the fundamental thing is that Jesus died for all of us, be us Jew or gentile. Just everyone. If we believe that, then we died, too. Now that being said, and if we find ourselves still actually alive, then don't you think that considering the situation, that we should be living this life we find ourselves in, for the one who died for us? Paul thinks so. He goes on to what we should conclude from these facts just presented, that us being dead in Christ and now also alive in Christ, we should stop with the making distinctions between us based on circumcision (again this weird fixation on foreskins but based on the idea of the Greeks that mutilation is just that, and not something good). Now that we are new creatures, Paul continues with this thought, then those fleshly things like the condition of our foreskins becomes completely irrelevant.
Jesus died to bring a unification of global scope of all mankind in that Jesus died for all without regard to whether we have a non-mutilated foreskin, or one that had been tampered with for some sort of ritual of tribal inclusion. Now we, (Paul continues discussing his role and the roles of his associates) are ambassadors of this message that God is not asking you to become part of a tribe but to join into a much greater thing.
Now while the plan was made within the heavenly godhead to bring about the salvation of the world and while Jesus was actually fulfilling the plan, as a man and doing his works, God was not holding our ignorance of the Hebrew Law against us, seeing how in the future this globalization was going to take place through the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Now, that this plan has taken place and the work has been completed by Jesus to bring about this unification of men (Paul goes on), let us become the thing that was the point of all of that and to become ourselves the righteousness of God. (end of this passage and after this is a new chapter)

Now that we have concluded today's Bible study excursion into Paul's message of reconciliation, lets go back and revisit the comment made by our friend, NotUrTypical.

When a man is born again and justified he is a new creature in Christ. . .

Is this what we concluded that Paul was saying in the passage that our friend is apparently paraphrasing?
Born again? Hmm, not really seeing that, more like the inexplicable fact that we are somehow still alive after we died.
Justification? Hmm, not seeing that either. Reconciliation, but really more about how God sees us all as being in the same group.
New creature? Hmm, I see the words but not being used in the same way our friend is trying to make them seem to mean.
So is this what our friend does all the time?
Just cherry picking, not just single verses but single words from different verses spread throughout the Bible, regardless of the context or subject matter? Looks like it.
So we the reader on ATS, should we feel confident that we are automatically saved based on a personal attribute call it "faith" or whatever that somehow self-elects us to be one of the chosen to go to heaven, regardless of what kind of life we lead after making an affirmation of being already saved and immune from any prosecution from any court of law, by angels, by heaven, or by God Himself?
I think not, for myself, and I hope not for you either, but to strive as hard as you can to assure your election and to prove your right position in that holy place that can tolerate no sin.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

These are instructions for the Christian, not the unbeliever for justification.

Titus 2:6 Encourage younger men to be self-controlled.
Titus 2:14 He gave himself for us to set us free from every kind of lawlessness and to purify for himself a people who are truly his, who are eager to do good.

Wow! Some extreme cherry picking through the scripture you claim to believe in and not in teachings.
You cite verse 13 while quoting from verse 14, saying zealous (where the translation I am using says eager), without quoting the actual verse. Why would that be? Is there a problem here, with the verse I just quoted above, verse 14?

I meant 14, sorry. Working a little to fast last night.

Why did you skip over that part and say all we need to do is to have a certain attitude?

"Attitude"? I don't recall saying we need to just have a certain "attitude" for justification.

Could it be that you do not like the idea that we were saved to be perfect?

For one thing, we will never be "perfect" until we have a glorified body free from sin, the whole flesh warring with the Spirit thing Paul bemoaned. And I said virtually the same thing, why not mention it a 5th time...

We are not saved BY our good works, but we are saved TO do good works, for His glory and our joy.

Any special reason why that may be the case?

Because we aren't saved to be perfect??? John says if any of us think we are free from sin we deceive ourselves. We're sinners, by commission and omission, by thought, deed and speech. We need to remain repentant at all times.

Why do you like to conflate the theological terms "Justification" and "Sanctification"? They are two entirely different things. Justification is a work of the Holy Spirit making us born again, regenerating our spirits/heart. Sanctification is a life-long process conforming us more and more, day by day, into the image of Christ.

You are just bull-headed dead set on sharing in the glory of your justification aren't you? Why?

Is it that this verse points out that the ones who can not be lost out of the hand of Jesus is only referring to those who "are his", who this verse describes as being pure?

That's not what Jesus says. Jesus says that all that the Father has given to Him will come to Him (Jn. 6:37). He also says that no man, which coincidentally means no man, can come to Him (Jesus) unless that man is first "drawn" by the Father to Jesus (Jn. 6:44). Jesus then continues that He will never reject anyone whom the father draws to Him and whom comes to Him from that drawing of the Father (Jn. 6:37). Jesus says that all that the Father gives to Him and draws to Him can never be taken out of His or His Father's hands (Jn. 10:27-29). And God's will is for Jesus to not lose a single person, other than Judas, that He (The Father) has given to Him (Jesus).

Warning flags should immediately rise up when your doctrine of justification is contrary to Jesus's teachings.

1. No man comes to Him to be saved unless that man is first drawn by God the Father.
2. All men that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him.
3. All men that come to Jesus will not be cast away by Jesus.
4. No one can take them from either Christ's hands or the Father's hands, both hands are securing the believer.
5. God's will in the matter is for the Son (Jesus), not to lose a single person that He (the Father) had given to
Him.

Could it the case that you are completely wrong and that we are saved by faith because Faith is the instrument for our salvation because it is this that instructs us into being righteous, as Jesus is righteous?

We are justified by a free gift of God's grace. I don't confuse the terms justification and sanctification. I realize "Salvation" is spoken of in three terms in the scriptures, and I don't confuse these as well. One of the reasons I like to use "justification" to describe our past tense sense of salvation is people easily confuse the three terms. We all can effectively say: "I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved", (Or the 3 "P"'s of Salvation):

Past Tense: We have been saved from the Penalty of sin by Christ's redemptive work done on the cross. (Justification)

Present Tense: I am being saved daily from the Power of sin over my life by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. (Sanctification)

Future Tense: I will be saved from the Presence of sin in my mortal body when I am given a new body free from sin at the resurrection. (Glorification)

Many well intentioned believers confuse the three which results in a mix-mash of confusion and conflation between Justification and Sanctification. They are two different works of God.

Faith is free, it is a gift given to us and we can not create that faith ourselves.

"God has assigned a measure of faith to each of us"

That we are made right (justified) by faith? Is that possible?

That's the entire message of the gospel. We're only justified by faith, it's a one time work of God by regenerating us with His Holy Spirit, (born-again). Sanctification is a lifelong process of His work in us by His infilling of His Spirit to conform us into the image of Christ.

We can not boast about our good works and our holiness and our perfection and our righteousness and our cleanness and purity, because it is not of our own doing, because it is of this miraculous power of God, this power freely given to us and does not come from us and is not because we are superior to others but it is our saviour who is superior, the saviour who can truly save us from our sins?

Christ said to only marvel that our names are written in the book of life. Paul said to only boast in Christ Jesus, to boast we are sons of God through Him. Both justification is a work of God, we cannot make ourselves born-again, that's God actually creating us a "new creature". Sanctification is a work done by the Holy Spirit for God's will to conform us to His Son.

This question is moot if we have none of those attributes to even consider boasting about, is that not true?

Boasting = sharing glory. God gets all the glory, Christ is the hero of this story, not us. We have nothing to boast about in heaven, we are there by Christ's sacrifice, God's drawing us to Him, and the regeneration of our spirit by the Holy Spirit. God saves US, for His glory and our eternal joy. We don't glory in His work, we accept the gift with humble joy and share God's mercy and grace with everyone else.

Do you deny the power of the Holy Spirit when you claim these things are not doable or necessary?

You're straw manning me right now. These works of righteousness/good works are not necessary for justification, but they are expected and empowered for sanctification by the Holy Spirit. Justification is a free gift, based solely upon Christ's love and the Fathers grace. If we could merit it somehow it would no longer be grace. Grace IS unmerited favor from God. Sanctification takes work, and effort from us to yield to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, we must do good, we must be Christ's hands and feet to the world. We must serve others as Christ came to serve us, we follow His example, we try as best we can to conform to His image by the power of the Holy Spirit living within us. And there are rewards to be won or lost based upon our faithfulness. An unprofitable servant can lose all their rewards and inheritance, but not their justification. because that justification didn't rely on their merits, but Christ's merits via God's grace, and the Holy Spirit's regeneration. The Holy Spirit is our "surety" of that justification.

Are you committing the unpardonable sin when you blaspheme the Spirit of God in this way?

Who is blaspheming the Holy Spirit? That's a person rejecting a lifetime of His conviction to repent. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin. A person must repent and agree with God that they are a sinner before they can be regenerated. The reason any person is lost is because they spent a lifetime blaspheming the Holy Spirit's conviction of their sin and calls to repent.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

You are just bull-headed dead set on sharing in the glory of your justification aren't you? Why?

You are just dead set on trying to make this accusation stick, why?
How about explaining this a bit?
Like how, exactly, am I doing this thing you say I am doing?

reply to post by jmdewey60


Wow, so condescending. *turnoff*

I think not, for myself, and I hope not for you either, but to strive as hard as you can to assure your election and to prove your right position in that holy place that can tolerate no sin.

If I am drawn to Christ I'm elected. Do you not remember that Christ said "no man" can come to Him unless that man is first drawn by the Father? Let's pretend for a minute that Jesus is Lord and is the Truth okay? If it takes sinless perfection to attain heaven the Paul is screwed. Do you think Paul was justified (born again) when he put pen to paper for the book of Romans? Yes, he was.:

Romans 7:14-20

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me."


"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

You are just bull-headed dead set on sharing in the glory of your justification aren't you? Why?

You are just dead set on trying to make this accusation stick, why?
How about explaining this a bit?
Like how, exactly, am I doing this thing you say I am doing?

Because you want your justification to not be solely about Christ and His completed work. You think when He exclaimed "It is finished" at Calvary He actually meant "... well, you guys still have to do your parts, I did mine. Good luck!" You want to puff your chest out when you die and be there before the throne on your merits, not on Christ's merits.

That's "sharing the glory". Who walked away from the altar "justified" when Christ was teaching His disciples at the temple? The man who went on and on and on about his works and his self-righteousness, or the man who looked at the ground in shame for His sins and asked for mercy?

And how in the world do you expect to do ANY good works for Christ and His kingdom without the Holy Spirit?? The Holy Spirit infills the believer at the point they are born-again! How in the world do you expect to do works of righteousness without the Holy Spirit?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Because you want your justification to not be solely about Christ and His completed work. You think when He exclaimed "It is finished" at Calvary He actually meant "... well, you guys still have to do your parts, I did mine. Good luck!"

There are fundamental differences between our philosophies.
One thing is you are part of the bail-out crowd. Ones who see yourself whisked off the planet any minute, so you do not have to deal with the harsh realities of living in this world of sin, so no need to be righteous in anyway beyond a label for you because you don't have to stick around.
Then you can ignore the fact that "It is finished" does not mean that the entire plan of salvation has been completed. It should be obvious to ones not self deluded, that there is still a big problem in the world that was not fixed by Jesus dying on the cross, and that it has to refer to something else, such as the cancellation of the old covenant and the beginning of the new covenant, which is one of obedience to God, not by following a written law but following the Spirit what God will put into your heart,

reply to post by jmdewey60


Well, then we are at an impasse, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Well, then we are at an impasse, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Which by that you mean:
"I have a totally indefensible position but instead of taking instruction from the Bible, I will stick with the philosophy given to me by my religionists, who say, be happy, don't worry, you don't have to live sinless in a sinful world, in fact, you don't have to live in this world at all because not only do you have a free pass through judgement but a guaranteed seat in heaven and a free ticket on the first flight out of here."
Sorry that you have decided to forsake the Christian religion, and why not, when yours has so much more to offer.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Or, "I've made my argument, JM has made his, neither of us is swayed and I don't feel like making the same arguments for another 50 pages." If you want to consider that as you "winning", then fine, you won. I don't have to be right. I've got better things to do with my time then continue this argument where there appears no end in sight. Sorry.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Yes, God is unforgiving.

You are not a Christian.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Yes, God is unforgiving.

You are not a Christian.

edit on 14/8/11 by Astyanax because: of nested replies.

Obviously we are not out of the dispute, which started already on page one here:

"Authority is always right".....says authority.

"Only our premises are valid".....says authority.

"I can go on to terminal boredom in my semantic apologetics"....says authority.

And to competing 'authorities' authority says: "My nukes are bigger than your nukes".

This is not a criticism of you A, just a continuation of your comment.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Or, "I've made my argument, JM has made his, neither of us is swayed and I don't feel like making the same arguments for another 50 pages." If you want to consider that as you "winning", then fine, you won. I don't have to be right. I've got better things to do with my time then continue this argument where there appears no end in sight. Sorry.

Funny how this did not turn out as you seem to have indicated you wanted it to, in this post.
Just in case there is anyone on this forum who wonders how this rivalry between JM, and NuT started, this is the place, mousetrails. The conversation obviously has gone on over countless threads since then.

My first post on this thread is not until past the middle of page 12, which I posted on July 16, 2011. Up until this exchange started subsequent to my posting on this thread, NOTurTypical was not anyone I payed any special attention to since he did not engage in the same sort of debates I was, which was usually on the Trinity, back when Mirium was on her campaign here over the subject, taking a Jehovah's Witness type position. She was the main reason I got involved heavily on this sub-forum to start with, because she was able to argue from a well informed place, instead of the usual sort of thing where people just repeat some formula they were taught.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Yes, you're still trolling me about the meaning of Ephesians 2:8-9 half a year later, congratulations.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

It's a disaster because the concept is nonsensical. God sets up a rule that requires blood sacrifice. He sends his son to earth and accepts him as a blood sacrifice (instead of just eliminating the sacrifice requirement). It's laughably absurd.

Really, Socrates grasped the seemingly impossible dilemma. Just forgiving without penalty would compromise God's righteousness.
“It may be that the Deity can forgive sins, but I do not see how,” ~ Socrates, BC

Here you are quoting a pagan philosopher to describe Justice according to your own philosophy, instead of using the New Testament to understand how it is we can be saved. Here you are doing a round-about explanation that I would classify as a blood-for-sins transaction where Jesus is the payee, and God is the recipient of such payment.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Nammu

 

It's not holy and righteous for God to pass judgement on wicked and rebellious people by having other people do wicked and sinful things to them.

Wow, God kept His Word, oh the horror!!!

“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image."
Genesis 9:6

I dunno just still doesn't sit right with me.

In the big picture concerning the sovereignty of God, does it matter if you agree or not?

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD."
Isaiah 55:8

I think this verse in Genesis was talking about justice something similar to what we have today, which is authorities who have law enforcement arresting people for murder. I don't think it meant sanctioning genocide to kill innocent women and children for idolatry to a city or national god who did not happen to go by the name, YHWH.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Yes, you're still trolling me about the meaning of Ephesians 2:8-9 half a year later, congratulations.

Thanks to your dragging up a partial quote from me written in this general time frame, I thought I would take another look at what you were saying then.
Here is your first post on this thread where you defend the Lord of the Old Testament from accusations of cruelty and such.

What verses? Where a holy and righteous God passes judgment on wicked and rebellious people?

*gasp* What horror!!!!

www.abovetopsecret.com...
This was attacking the OP where he is describing a book he read called "Mousetrails", and the OP is asking why Christians don't talk about the atrocities perpetrated in the name of God in the OT.
Your tactic for dealing with the thread's original post was to ask the author what verse he was referring to, as if you could not possibly think of such a thing, off the top of your head, and you need to be directed to what would seem offensive to most people. It makes me imagine that you are dead to the sufferings of others to where you feel no sympathy to all the millions senselessly slaughtered by people believing they were killing for God.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Nammu

 

It's not holy and righteous for God to pass judgement on wicked and rebellious people by having other people do wicked and sinful things to them.

Wow, God kept His Word, oh the horror!!!

“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image."
Genesis 9:6

I dunno just still doesn't sit right with me.

In the big picture concerning the sovereignty of God, does it matter if you agree or not?

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD."
Isaiah 55:8

I think this verse in Genesis was talking about justice something similar to what we have today, which is authorities who have law enforcement arresting people for murder.

I don't need you to explain English for me. It says "whosoever" sheds the blood of a man, then that person's blood will be shed by men. "Live by the sword, die by the sword". The "whosoever" part, IMHO "self-explanatory".

I don't think it meant sanctioning genocide to kill innocent women and children for idolatry to a city or national god who did not happen to go by the name, YHWH.

Oh that's pretty neat, I don't think it meant that nonsense either.