'Mousetrails' and the dark side of the Old Testament

Originally posted by wearewatchingyouman
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

lol... I love how some people totally ignore the question and jump right to the propaganda... Maybe you didn't understand what a verse was... it's understandable....

Oh. I didn't realize I had to go bible-fishin' to avoid your ridicule. Next time I won't make any comments unless I quote mine the bible so you will be happy.

I'm always surprised at people's sense of entitlement! The very notion that God, or whatever you may call Him, owes anyone, more especially a non-believer, any kind of explanation for His actions is absurd at the least.

Perhaps the best evidence we have that God is forgiving is the fact he tolerates that kind of gall from his creation and doesn't just strike them down.

You can think God is cruel, hypocritical, and whatever else you like. Do you think stomping your foot and crossing your arms will make God change his plans?

Originally posted by JayTaylor
I'm always surprised at people's sense of entitlement! The very notion that God, or whatever you may call Him, owes anyone, more especially a non-believer, any kind of explanation for His actions is absurd at the least.

Why?

Perhaps the best evidence we have that God is forgiving is the fact he tolerates that kind of gall from his creation and doesn't just strike them down.

That may also be good evidence that the biblical god doesn't exist.

You can think God is cruel, hypocritical, and whatever else you like. Do you think stomping your foot and crossing your arms will make God change his plans?

I personally don't think there is a god with any plans to change.

I think too many people think of Him as a father instead of the ruler of the universe. Men then create an ideal God in their own minds, and so reject the actual God for having personality traits they see as flaws.

Rape:

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

www.evilbible.com...


Murder:

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. Deuteronomy 17:12

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. Exodus 22:17

www.evilbible.com...


Slavery:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46

www.evilbible.com...

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" ~Seneca

Its quite clear in the Bible that God and the "devil" are 'enemies'....
The bearers of love and right, and hate and wrong one could say..
So if God and devil are/were enemies, God ordering the people of the Earth to
obliterate evil/devil-worshippers,etc. is not hunger for blood but rather hunger for righteousness and integrity. (The brutal fight for good in a world tainted with evil) Its kindof like the whole point..
And also you or Keith says that God doesn't seem the same in all the books of the bible ::
1) Like any other being God grows, and with growth beliefs,etc change
Now I dnt believe that God would make a 360 change, but like I said growth would bring about subtle enlightenments (for lack of a better word) which could cause the grounded changes in God throughout the Bible you describe
2)The majority of the books of the Bible have different authors which favored the books to themselves to a certain degree like ANY piece of thoughtform or art
3)The Bible, like all sacred/ancient texts, have been distorted. The original Bible wasn't written in English (obviously but a good point as to how there are not many reliable resources of translation and even if there were several good sources the translations would still, in some small way, differ from one another)
and probably wasn't divided into scriptures and verses, Man over time has implemented their own ideas


these are simply questions or points you or others may not have considered

either way have a 'blessed' day




Im sorry to say, I know that in the higher purpose it is wrong and while I do have love for every single being, I
am almost excited at the thought (on a wayy deeper level of subconcious or something) of the great revolution to come and participating in the slaughter of the 'demons' on this Earth that are responsible for the downfall of everything and the degrading and disgusting murders and abusers, etc. Not the good people who have committed such crimes, but the truly grotesque people, *SNIP*. I think it's why I'm here to be honest.



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I've read the bible cover to cover, and understand that God really is loving. God is also protective of his people.
The stories in which villages are wiped out are MEANT to be in the Bible to illustrate how thoroughly "contaminated" those places and their inhabitants were. None of the aforementioned verses advocated rape however....

Some feel that if God is all loving, then why would God want murder or death when in fact all those slaughtered are of its Creation anyway? I think the point gets missed thinking that way, better to see it as God speaking to his prophets or priests, and commanding them to be empowered and take action, sometimes miracles get the message across ( like parting the Red Sea) other times its the apparent actions of men and soldiers that convey the point.

Why kill babies and women as well? there was definitely an existential kind of motive to that as well, but it still has to do with "contamination". if there were a culture that had microevolved in an environment where their genes were damaged by who knows what or if there were a virus carried by a certain people, it was probably related to God's intention to keep mankind around for a while. Even though it seems brutal and I couldn't fathom commiting those acts myself, I think of it like maybe killing zombies for example, a contaminated dangerous being. I mean even a baby zombie is a zombie?

part of reading the Bible is Trying to accept the stories as truth, and trying to relate to the parables....trying to find a modern point to relate "unsubstantiated" and "inaccurate" stories to your modern and current life.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I couldn't disagree more. You sound like the pouting kid who is crying about how terrible mom and dad are immediately after being spanked for disobeying. God doesn't pass judgment unless there first is disobedience.

Sorry, we're at fault for disobeying, not God for punishing said disobedience.

The Old Testament is full of unjust and unrighteous activities by god. If you were to remove the preconception that the biblical god is somehow always in the right what you find is a capricious, genocidal maniac. And whatever gave you the opinion that god's rampages were the result of disobedience? You may wish to revisit the Old Testament for another reading (if you've actually read it already).

Still sounds like that metaphorical pouting kid after a spanking.

No one will understand the death of an entire village, city or country or comprehend how it may have affected the future in a negative way. 6.5 million sounds pretty slim, imo. Israel never really had any power up until king david era and it was also possible that the Old testament, not only the word of God, was a psycholgical warfare book as well to place fear in the enemies eyes. Whatever the case, the God of the OT and NT are the same. God should be feared for a reason, He holds all your life

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Still sounds like that metaphorical pouting kid after a spanking.

And that sounds like issuance of an ad hominem because you are unable to address the actual points.
.

Imagine a world where Sodom and Gommorah still existed or blended into the fabric of "moral society". Who the hell are we to question Him?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So an unforgiving God is righteous?

Wow that doesn't help the argument that God is good at all...

From my perspective, I am not an atheist but an agnostic for the sake of an argument, God created us with free will. He also created good and evil. He created Satan.
Everything he created was pre-programmed, but still had some from of free will. God is learning from us and changing his punishments accordingly. He realizes a heavy hand of destruction changes nothing, that our cruel nature is in fact part of him. Eventually realizing this, his punishments change over time.

Its almost an exercise in learning about himself and learning how to breed certain attributes he has out of himself by learning from us. We are all tiny experiments meant to give him enlightenment. It also enlightens us as well.

All the stories your reading is a history of what God has done, his people have done, and how he has evolved over time and how that evolution has affected us. Always striving towards perfection we are, made in God's image it's logical to assume he is not perfect but that is not truth according to the bible. God is both man and woman and we are seperate entities on earth. It should be our goal to work together as man and woman, as a world, that will bring us closer to perfection and enlightenment.

Those who sin against God and try to turn away from him suffer his biggest wrath. I don't necessarily agree with that due to my own skewed version of good and evil (taught to me by civilization) but I am sure if he would explain it, I would get it.

I just know I am not all knowing and accept that something in that book must have some truth, due to archeology and a plethora of predictions that were proven true within it. Denying the bible has truth in it is ignorance plain and simple.

Defending atheism is like running into a mountain, you will constantly bruise yourself running into it but the mountain don't care.

Originally posted by Jordan River
Imagine a world where Sodom and Gommorah still existed or blended into the fabric of "moral society". Who the hell are we to question Him?

What I have never really understood about the bible is that if god created us in his image, why is it disobedient to use our intelligence to question and reject things, including his existence? These must be qualities modeled on god after all.

If we truly are created after god then surely any thing we do or believe is infallible and unquestionable like the god of the OT.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I couldn't disagree more. You sound like the pouting kid who is crying about how terrible mom and dad are immediately after being spanked for disobeying. God doesn't pass judgment unless there first is disobedience. Sorry, we're at fault for disobeying, not God for punishing said disobedience.

You sound like a mean little snotty nosed christian, who only has smart ass answers , and can't see the plain logic the OP is getting at.

How sad for you. Go be with your blood sacrificing god, with all of his "free will"..
yep.."do this..or you get slaughtered" .."aren't you grateful I gave you free will"?

reply to post by EspyderMan


Yes, God is unforgiving. Not because He is not good, but because for Him to give a nod and wink to sin would compromise His holiness and righteousness. (That's why I posted the quote from Socrates)

If God forgives sin and unrighteousness freely He compromises His perfect holiness and justice. How to deal with our sin without compromising His natue and character is God's greatest dilemma.

The answer is "Penal Substitutionary Atonement".

reply to post by gabby2011


What "logic" is that?? The cherry-picked, hasty-generalizational straw man "logic"???

That's not logic, that's the opposite of logic.

Originally posted by DrHammondStoat


What I have never really understood about the bible is that if god created us in his image, why is it disobedient to use our intelligence to question and reject things, including his existence? These must be qualities modeled on god after all.

If we truly are created after god then surely any thing we do or believe is infallible and unquestionable like the god of the OT.

Questioning Him is intelligent when you are already at the belief in Him. You can question Him, really what is stopping you? He knows who you are inside and out, so what is the big deal? You can reject Him as you see fit.

God created us in His image. As an intelligent person as you are, you should see and understand what lies beneath this verse. God created us in "HIS" Image. Just like we create a peice of art in "OUR" Image. The term "His image" could also mean in "His Idea". I do not believe that God is physical and honestly the closes resemblance we have are probably more akin towards angels. That should be noted as well, something is up! if you look at it from this point of view.

As part of the Free Will concept you are in fact encouraged to question EVERYTHING, but you must be willing to accept the answers....you ask and God answers, God has always been logical and reasonable. Would God not allow a person to question its very existence, I think not.......free will is quite a biggie in this life, everybody gets it and so few understand it

Originally posted by balanc3

God has always been logical and reasonable.

I'm not certain that's accurate.

That is, if you're referring to the biblical god

Actually, it is not clear from the bible that "God" and "Satan" are enemies.
It's not clear at all.
What is clear, is that they are two deities from one pantheon, that things are not as black and white as you'd like to think, and that the meaning is lost on most who cling to it fervently.