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The place where we veer off from each other is that you say we can not be righteous.
Where do you find this?
At least that's the order of events Paul lays out.
Paul is being rhetorical in making this imagined debate where one side is saying the Jews are better for having the law given to them. The other side is saying that those who have not the law are still guilty if they do wrong. Then in this rhetorical word play, Paul has a third voice that jumps in and says, they are all guilty because none are doing that which is right.
Not exactly, Paul quotes the OT saying "there is none righteous, no not one"
All I can figure is that somehow there is a profound disconnect between this statement, and reality.
"Justified" means we are declared righteous, not by anything we've done, we're evil. We are gifted righteousness by God's good graces and mercy enabled by Christ making atonement for sin and the Father's wrath was poured out on Him.
To continue my commentary on Romans.
Paul is being rhetorical. . .
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
Paul is being rhetorical in making this imagined debate where one side is saying the Jews are better for having the law given to them....
Not exactly, Paul quotes the OT saying "there is none righteous, no not one"
He is setting the scene for the Gospel to make an entrance into the play. He is not describing the condition of the world after the Gospel has had its chance to act.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
Where do you find this?
At least that's the order of events Paul lays out.
Or am I asking the wrong person?
Maybe I should look it up on the search engines?
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
All I can figure is that somehow there is a profound disconnect between this statement, and reality.
"Justified" means we are declared righteous, not by anything we've done, we're evil. We are gifted righteousness by God's good graces and mercy enabled by Christ making atonement for sin and the Father's wrath was poured out on Him.
Do you know someone, like a lay evangelist or a pastor or something at your church, who can explain this?
I mean someone who is a trained at a professional level, theologian, who is an expert in the Greek who can point out to me how this could possibly the correct interpretation of the verses? I seriously doubt that you have that ability.
to this idea that all the righteousness we need to have, in order to go to heaven, is just handed to us.
Do you have like a parent or wife or friend or other relative who could read your posts and perhaps give a critique of it, just wondering.
Not at all, yes, he is asking questions in making an argument, but it's not true, he is in fact describing the condition of the world after the gospel. We are all born in iniquity, we are all born with a sin nature, and furthermore, this is some 15 years after the new covenant is already in place which was affirmed at the last supper with the Lord Jesus Christ.
You are not exactly keeping up. I already granted that much that the law did not have the power to regenerate the soul.
Every mouth will be shut up", "the whole world is held accountable to God", and "no human being will be justified in His sight" by the works of the law."
Not to boast because you would be on a level with everyone else there. Plus techically you would have been guilty if not forgiven, but you will be righteous in your own right, when you enter the gates of Heaven.
None of us will have any reason to boast in heaven, because none of us will be there on account of our works and righteousness, but His, Christ's righteousness.
I explain that in the post after the one you are commenting on here. There is a judgment by God. There are two possible verdicts that are the result of this judgement. One verdict is, "righteous" and the other is "unrighteous". The unrighteous are destroyed, so that verdict is a death sentence and not the outcome you, the judged, would want.
Paul says exactly that in Romans 3:21-31, that we declare "His righteousness" by our faith. That we are justified by God's grace through faith apart from any works of the law.
I dealt with this back when we were debating if Christians have to ever face judgement. Why are you dragging this passage out again. Do you really have no better argument?
There are works to be done for sure, but those works are to receive or lose eternal rewards, and have no bearing on our salvation. See: 1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Do you have like a parent or wife or friend or other relative who could read your posts and perhaps give a critique of it, just wondering.
You seem to have a problem with understanding time.
When you watch TV, do you understand that not everything on it is happening at that precise moment?
Not to boast because you would be on a level with everyone else there.
I explain that in the post after the one you are commenting on here.
I dealt with this back when we were debating if Christians have to ever face judgement. Why are you dragging this passage out again. Do you really have no better argument?
You have me wrong and are making convenient assumptions to avoid answering questions. As evidence, you do not address my main point.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60
Ahhhh yes, the secret weapon of appeal to ridicule comes out. What shall I do now??
Hmm, that's not at all what Paul said, he said no one would boast because our salvation isn't a merit-based one on works, but one of faith.
You had better get cracking, then.
God doesn't grade on a curve,. . .. He compares you to Christ.
Already been over all this.
How can you claim to be a scholar of the book or Revelation and not know there are three different "Judgments" spoken of in that book, separated by location and timing and who will be present at each?
Because you "dealt with it" doesn't automatically mean you made a convincing case.
Why don't you explain this and what it means exactly?
My hermeneutics is one of literal interpretation.
Because . . hey, did you go to Wikipedia and read up on Erasmus, as I suggested some time ago? The KJV is based on the translation from the Greek, into the Latin by Erasmus, a Catholic priest who was a humanist. He wanted people to play a role in their salvation so he came up with the idea that we can have faith, as a meritorious attribute, which we can exercise towards earning our salvation. Do you understand, now, why I have to explain it? Erasmus picked over the manuscripts and chose the ones that fit his theory. The KJV translated the Latin version of the New Testament written by Erasmus, straight into the English.
Why do I need you to interpret what Paul said in Romans 3:21-31? He declared "His righteousness". It doesn't say "our righteousness". We don't have any righteousness of our own. Apparently, virtually all the translators of the scripture in both the AV and the modern versions were in error and need your expert opinion to clarify numerous passages of scripture?
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
Because . . hey, did you go to Wikipedia and read up on Erasmus, as I suggested some time ago? The KJV is based on the translation from the Greek, into the Latin by Erasmus, a Catholic priest who was a humanist. He wanted people to play a role in their salvation so he came up with the idea that we can have faith, as a meritorious attribute, which we can exercise towards earning our salvation. Do you understand, now, why I have to explain it? Erasmus picked over the manuscripts and chose the ones that fit his theory. The KJV translated the Latin version of the New Testament written by Erasmus, straight into the English.
Why do I need you to interpret what Paul said in Romans 3:21-31? He declared "His righteousness". It doesn't say "our righteousness". We don't have any righteousness of our own. Apparently, virtually all the translators of the scripture in both the AV and the modern versions were in error and need your expert opinion to clarify numerous passages of scripture?