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'Mousetrails' and the dark side of the Old Testament

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posted on Jul, 19 2011 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



The place where we veer off from each other is that you say we can not be righteous.


Not exactly, Paul quotes the OT saying "there is none righteous, no not one". I'm certainly not righteous, I cannot hope to attain salvation based on my righteousness. We were gifted Christ's righteousness. He bore our sins and imputed His righteousness to us. "Justified" means we are declared righteous, not by anything we've done, we're evil. We are gifted righteousness by God's good graces and mercy enabled by Christ making atonement for sin and the Father's wrath was poured out on Him.

He became sin for us, and the Father judged sin at Calvary. We have been "made the righteousness of God in Him." When Jesus exclaimed "It is finished!" it was NOT hyperbole. He didn't mean "Well, I did my part, now it's up to you guys to do yours."


edit on 19-7-2011 by NOTurTypical because: spelling



posted on Jul, 19 2011 @ 11:36 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

At least that's the order of events Paul lays out.
Where do you find this?
Or am I asking the wrong person?
Maybe I should look it up on the search engines?



posted on Jul, 19 2011 @ 11:56 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Not exactly, Paul quotes the OT saying "there is none righteous, no not one"
Paul is being rhetorical in making this imagined debate where one side is saying the Jews are better for having the law given to them. The other side is saying that those who have not the law are still guilty if they do wrong. Then in this rhetorical word play, Paul has a third voice that jumps in and says, they are all guilty because none are doing that which is right.
He is setting the scene for the Gospel to make an entrance into the play. He is not describing the condition of the world after the Gospel has had its chance to act.



posted on Jul, 20 2011 @ 02:32 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

"Justified" means we are declared righteous, not by anything we've done, we're evil. We are gifted righteousness by God's good graces and mercy enabled by Christ making atonement for sin and the Father's wrath was poured out on Him.
All I can figure is that somehow there is a profound disconnect between this statement, and reality.
Do you know someone, like a lay evangelist or a pastor or something at your church, who can explain this?
I mean someone who is a trained at a professional level, theologian, who is an expert in the Greek who can point out to me how this could possibly the correct interpretation of the verses? I seriously doubt that you have that ability.



posted on Jul, 20 2011 @ 06:03 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 

Paul is being rhetorical. . .
To continue my commentary on Romans.
Paul asks, If everyone is evil, then how could God be a just and righteous Judge?
Where is the judgement? How there is a situation created where God can have something to base judgments on, one way or the other, is through this thing of Christ being himself a faithful follower of God.
On one side is this thing which is a given and God does not need to do anything at all for it to be this way, and that is what is already mentioned which is this state of condemnation of everyone if nothing is done otherwise.
To counterbalance this vastly lopsided situation, God creates a sort of open floodgate thing, on the other side.
This internal dialogue of Paul's carries on, but in chapter 4, he turns to the Jewish side and sees if he can draw a parallel between them, and the Gentiles he had been up to that point addressing. He brings up Abraham and shows there was a judgment on him by God which was not determined by law but based on what Abraham knew and believed and what he acted on, based on those understandings.
Concerning what directly follows, keep in mind Paul is still talking about God the Judge. In this capacity of judge, God can do one of two things, declare a person to be righteous or not. So God is not just sitting there and saying you are now righteous. What Paul is saying is that God is not condemning everyone in the world wholesale. Some people he is not condemning, for a reason given which is Jesus who has been presented by God, to the people to figuratively come to as the place for forgiveness.
This is the story which Paul was telling and from it, we end up with this huge creation of philosophy that I quoted a little earlier and I commented on that he is going to have to have some really big proof for how he goes from what I just described, to this idea that all the righteousness we need to have, in order to go to heaven, is just handed to us.

edit on 20-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2011 @ 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Not exactly, Paul quotes the OT saying "there is none righteous, no not one"
Paul is being rhetorical in making this imagined debate where one side is saying the Jews are better for having the law given to them....
He is setting the scene for the Gospel to make an entrance into the play. He is not describing the condition of the world after the Gospel has had its chance to act.



Not at all, yes, he is asking questions in making an argument, but it's not true, he is in fact describing the condition of the world after the gospel. We are all born in iniquity, we are all born with a sin nature, and furthermore, this is some 15 years after the new covenant is already in place which was affirmed at the last supper with the Lord Jesus Christ.


"9For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."





"Every mouth will be shut up", "the whole world is held accountable to God", and "no human being will be justified in His sight" by the works of the law."


In case you missed it, Paul is using the future tense, "will be", and says no human being will ever be justified in His sight by the works of the law. And Paul concludes his argument in verses 21-28 by declaring we have Christ's righteousness, the He is the propitiation for our sins. We are declared righteous, in His sight by faith in Jesus Christ, NOT on any merits of our own, but His glorious sin-free life and death in our place:


"21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law."


None of us will have any reason to boast in heaven, because none of us will be there on account of our works and righteousness, but His, Christ's righteousness.

"



posted on Jul, 20 2011 @ 08:39 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

At least that's the order of events Paul lays out.
Where do you find this?
Or am I asking the wrong person?
Maybe I should look it up on the search engines?



In Romans 11, Paul's entire chapter detailing that God is not yet finished with Israel, verse 25 specifically:


"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."


This "blindness" was declared by Jesus Christ for them (Israel) not recognizing the "Day of their visitation" by Him that was prophesied 400 years earlier to the very day by Gabriel to Daniel. (Luke 19:41):


"And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes."


Hosea 5:15 states that Christ will return to His place until His people acknowledge their "offense", singular and specific, and that they will seek Him earnestly when they are afflicted in the Great Tribulation. (Time of Jacob's trouble) This wasn't referring to the Holocaust, because the Jews are still blind to Jesus being their Messiah and Savior.


"I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me earnestly."


"Until they acknowledge their offense.." The entire purpose of the Great Tribulation is to drive Israel to acknowledge their offense and to seek the Lord Jesus Christ earnestly. When the fullness of the Gentiles is complete and the church is raptured all of Israel will know the Christians were right and Jesus is their Messiah and Savior.




edit on 20-7-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2011 @ 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

"Justified" means we are declared righteous, not by anything we've done, we're evil. We are gifted righteousness by God's good graces and mercy enabled by Christ making atonement for sin and the Father's wrath was poured out on Him.
All I can figure is that somehow there is a profound disconnect between this statement, and reality.
Do you know someone, like a lay evangelist or a pastor or something at your church, who can explain this?
I mean someone who is a trained at a professional level, theologian, who is an expert in the Greek who can point out to me how this could possibly the correct interpretation of the verses? I seriously doubt that you have that ability.





Paul says exactly that in Romans 3:21-31, that we declare "His righteousness" by our faith. That we are justified by God's grace through faith apart from any works of the law.



posted on Jul, 20 2011 @ 08:53 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



to this idea that all the righteousness we need to have, in order to go to heaven, is just handed to us.


That's exactly what Paul lays out in Romans 3:21-31. That we are given "His righteousness" as a gift of grace to "all that believe" on His Son. That we are justified by faith alone through grace alone. It's a free gift of God, that's what grace is, a free gift. There is no condemnation for us who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1) There are works to be done for sure, but those works are to receive or lose eternal rewards, and have no bearing on our salvation. See: 1 Corinthians 3:10-15


"10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."



posted on Jul, 20 2011 @ 11:22 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Not at all, yes, he is asking questions in making an argument, but it's not true, he is in fact describing the condition of the world after the gospel. We are all born in iniquity, we are all born with a sin nature, and furthermore, this is some 15 years after the new covenant is already in place which was affirmed at the last supper with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Do you have like a parent or wife or friend or other relative who could read your posts and perhaps give a critique of it, just wondering.
You seem to have a problem with understanding time.
When you watch TV, do you understand that not everything on it is happening at that precise moment?
Paul is telling a story or like I said being rhetorical and that was an art form back in the day, where a man who is a rhetoricist would get up in the marketplace or somewhere else where crowds would normally gather, and in the O.T. it would be the city gate. And his man would engage in rhetoric in an interesting sort of way which engages the audience as if they are experiencing a play but a play made of words.
In this play could be a story and this story could be set in any time frame according to the preference of the story teller. Paul could be telling about events that could have been in the past, or was in the present, or possibly in the future since the human mind in the Greek culture was advanced enough to be able to have such concepts.

Every mouth will be shut up", "the whole world is held accountable to God", and "no human being will be justified in His sight" by the works of the law."
You are not exactly keeping up. I already granted that much that the law did not have the power to regenerate the soul.

None of us will have any reason to boast in heaven, because none of us will be there on account of our works and righteousness, but His, Christ's righteousness.
Not to boast because you would be on a level with everyone else there. Plus techically you would have been guilty if not forgiven, but you will be righteous in your own right, when you enter the gates of Heaven.
edit on 20-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2011 @ 11:39 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Paul says exactly that in Romans 3:21-31, that we declare "His righteousness" by our faith. That we are justified by God's grace through faith apart from any works of the law.
I explain that in the post after the one you are commenting on here. There is a judgment by God. There are two possible verdicts that are the result of this judgement. One verdict is, "righteous" and the other is "unrighteous". The unrighteous are destroyed, so that verdict is a death sentence and not the outcome you, the judged, would want.
If you are declared "righteous" by the judge, that just means you don't get sent to hell, out of hand.

The grace is that no one would ever be judged righteous if the standard of judgment was strictly applied.
In order for some to pass, God has to make a certain allowance and have some sort of forgiveness for certain failings. This is done for the sake of Jesus who was the one who would pass the strictest scrutiny before the Judgement seat, where Jesus himself becomes the new judgement seat where we can go, seeing how the one that Jesus passed would never pass us. So here is the gift, a more forgiving judgment but not a slacking of the standards, but an understanding of the soul of every man and what that person is capable of. We will all want to be as little children when we come before that seat.
edit on 20-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2011 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

There are works to be done for sure, but those works are to receive or lose eternal rewards, and have no bearing on our salvation. See: 1 Corinthians 3:10-15
I dealt with this back when we were debating if Christians have to ever face judgement. Why are you dragging this passage out again. Do you really have no better argument?

Let me give a help here.
www.helding.net...
As an example, Romans 2, the audio version being read in the N. T. Greek.
Read along at.
biblos.com...
What I do is download the mp3 and open it in Audacity, and highlight a verse at a time and play that one segment a few times while following along with the Apostolic Interlinear, on the Biblos page.
On the page I linked to, as an example of an interesting word, ekpheuxē, which is to escape.

edit on 20-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 21 2011 @ 08:07 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Do you have like a parent or wife or friend or other relative who could read your posts and perhaps give a critique of it, just wondering.
You seem to have a problem with understanding time.
When you watch TV, do you understand that not everything on it is happening at that precise moment?


Ahhhh yes, the secret weapon of appeal to ridicule comes out. What shall I do now??


Not to boast because you would be on a level with everyone else there.


Hmm, that's not at all what Paul said, he said no one would boast because our salvation isn't a merit-based one on works, but one of faith.



edit on 21-7-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 21 2011 @ 08:24 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



I explain that in the post after the one you are commenting on here.


Why do I need you to interpret what Paul said in Romans 3:21-31? He declared "His righteousness". It doesn't say "our righteousness". We don't have any righteousness of our own. Apparently, virtually all the translators of the scripture in both the AV and the modern versions were in error and need your expert opinion to clarify numerous passages of scripture?

God doesn't grade on a curve, He doesn't compare you to the drunk down the street who beats his wife and kicks his dog. He compares you to Christ. There are 3 different judgments spoken of in Revelation. The judgment seat of Christ, which is in heaven, for the body of Christ, all who are present there are saved and it's for the purpose of trying everyone's works with "fire" to see which ones remain and are rewarded, and which works are lost to the fire.

The second judgment, the "sheep and goats Judgment" is immediately after the Great Tribulation, it takes place on Earth in Jerusalem and removes those who took the mark of the beast from those who did not who are still alive and are elect from the mess that transpired on Earth. This judgment determines who is to enter the millennium and who will not. Humans do in fact enter the millennium.

The last judgment is the "great white throne judgment" which will happen on Earth again and at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign. All the wicked will be resurrected for this judgment, the angels will be judged here, and satan. As well as the people who were alive and remain from the millennial reign of Christ.

How can you claim to be a scholar of the book or Revelation and not know there are three different "Judgments" spoken of in that book, separated by location and timing and who will be present at each?



posted on Jul, 21 2011 @ 08:28 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



I dealt with this back when we were debating if Christians have to ever face judgement. Why are you dragging this passage out again. Do you really have no better argument?


Because you "dealt with it" doesn't automatically mean you made a convincing case. My hermeneutics is one of literal interpretation. If Paul says that at the judgment seat of Christ we will have our works judged to see if rewards are won or lost but everyone is still saved even if reward are lost, then that's what I place my faith upon. Scripture is the final authority for me. Likewise, when you say the church dispensation is a false doctrine, sorry I have to yield to Paul who hammers away for 3 straight chapters in Romans that God is not finished with Israel or the Jews.

No offense.



posted on Jul, 21 2011 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60
 

Ahhhh yes, the secret weapon of appeal to ridicule comes out. What shall I do now??
Hmm, that's not at all what Paul said, he said no one would boast because our salvation isn't a merit-based one on works, but one of faith.
You have me wrong and are making convenient assumptions to avoid answering questions. As evidence, you do not address my main point.
I was wondering, seriously if you have a kind of feed-back loop where someone (other than myself) can check it.
Who is saying, "What shall I do now?", me? If that is what you think, then you are wrong. Do you think I am nervous?
It is a merit based system, based on the merit of Jesus and the faithfulness to the contract between him and God.
What on Earth faith do you think you have? Are you faithfully holding up your end of the bargain because this is what you need to be doing if you believe it is about your faith.
You need to study the Bible where you believe you find your salvation, and stop listening to sound bites that are meant to lead you astray.
edit on 21-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 21 2011 @ 11:27 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

God doesn't grade on a curve,. . .. He compares you to Christ.
You had better get cracking, then.
Are you there yet, holy as Jesus? If not, then you had better get there, since you will be judged in comparison to Jesus.

How can you claim to be a scholar of the book or Revelation and not know there are three different "Judgments" spoken of in that book, separated by location and timing and who will be present at each?
Already been over all this.
edit on 21-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 21 2011 @ 11:32 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Because you "dealt with it" doesn't automatically mean you made a convincing case.

Alright, go back to that thread where we were discussing judgement and come back here and tell me the part where you have a problem with my explanation.

My hermeneutics is one of literal interpretation.
Why don't you explain this and what it means exactly?

edit on 21-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 21 2011 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Why do I need you to interpret what Paul said in Romans 3:21-31? He declared "His righteousness". It doesn't say "our righteousness". We don't have any righteousness of our own. Apparently, virtually all the translators of the scripture in both the AV and the modern versions were in error and need your expert opinion to clarify numerous passages of scripture?
Because . . hey, did you go to Wikipedia and read up on Erasmus, as I suggested some time ago? The KJV is based on the translation from the Greek, into the Latin by Erasmus, a Catholic priest who was a humanist. He wanted people to play a role in their salvation so he came up with the idea that we can have faith, as a meritorious attribute, which we can exercise towards earning our salvation. Do you understand, now, why I have to explain it? Erasmus picked over the manuscripts and chose the ones that fit his theory. The KJV translated the Latin version of the New Testament written by Erasmus, straight into the English.



posted on Jul, 21 2011 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Why do I need you to interpret what Paul said in Romans 3:21-31? He declared "His righteousness". It doesn't say "our righteousness". We don't have any righteousness of our own. Apparently, virtually all the translators of the scripture in both the AV and the modern versions were in error and need your expert opinion to clarify numerous passages of scripture?
Because . . hey, did you go to Wikipedia and read up on Erasmus, as I suggested some time ago? The KJV is based on the translation from the Greek, into the Latin by Erasmus, a Catholic priest who was a humanist. He wanted people to play a role in their salvation so he came up with the idea that we can have faith, as a meritorious attribute, which we can exercise towards earning our salvation. Do you understand, now, why I have to explain it? Erasmus picked over the manuscripts and chose the ones that fit his theory. The KJV translated the Latin version of the New Testament written by Erasmus, straight into the English.





What? No. Only two apocryphal books were translated from the Latin, the entire NT was translated from the Greek and the OT was translated from the Hebrew. Why are you looking to Wikipedia for history of the Bible versions? That's madness. The AV traces it's history to the Antiochian Codex, and the modern versions all come from the W&H Greek text which relied upon the Alexandrian Codices. (Sinaiaticus & Vaticanus)

I trust the Antiochian Codecies because if you'll read after about chapter 13 of the Book of Acts the headquarters of the Christians was at Antioch Syria. The Alexandrian Codices gave birth to the Roman Catholic Bible.

English Bible History



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