Why are kids taught in public schools to believe in next to impossible chance, rather than God?

reply to post by addygrace

It also isn't evidence of something. Your using the same argument as "God of the gaps". Because it's so huge and old there must be a way for life to come from non-life. That's not logical.

That is completely logical! It happened here by chance, so it can happen elsewhere in our incredibly vast universe.

Our galaxy alone: 100,000,000,000 stars. Galaxies in the universe: (VERY conservative estimate): 100,000,000,000, so 100,000,000,000 X 100,000,000,000 = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars. One million trillion stars, and that's a super low-balled estimate, floating around in the universe for over 14 billion years, and you think Earth is the only planet that developed life?

If God indeed created the universe, why did he wait around for 13.9999 billion years for man to develop complex thought, and only then send Jesus to tell us what the dealio is? What was he doing that whole time, just sitting around waiting?

Not to really get into this, but let's pretend we do find other life on other planets. This fact alone doesn't make abiogenesis true or likely.

Yes it does, because life developing in the universe is proof that it develops from inanimate matter. Until there is definitive proof that God exists and created the universe and everything within it, that'll just be speculation with nothing backing it up. I'll trust evidence, fact, observation, and experimentation based science 100% of the time over religion, and every person should too IMO.

Originally posted by lifeform11
reply to post by Annee

 

well they teach all religions in that lesson, not just one view. the pupose is to understand different cultures and beliefs, given the u.k. has many of them i do not think it will do any harm. infact they will be less ignorant and more understanding of different beliefs because of it.

i just wish some religious people were more understanding and less ignorant where peoples beliefs of not believing was concerned.

Don't care.

Children below high school level - - - should NEVER be taught religion or anything about religion if its a public school.. That is up to their parents - and their parents alone. NOT a public school.

High school level could offer an elective comparative religion class with parent permission. As long as it is elective and not part of regular curriculum.

Religion is a choice - - a belief. It is NOT and does NOT belong in standard public education.

------------------------------------------------

Children can be taught Culture - - and that religion is part of certain Cultures. They do not need to learn about the different beliefs in primary grades.

reply to post by Annee


Anyone ever think of asking children what they want? No, of course not, someone could be worried the child will come up with their own conclusion or maybe get interested in something that's against the parent's religious stance.

reply to post by AMANNAMEDQUEST


the egg is fertilized by the sperm(Life) it is from life it grows. the egg comes from the mother(life) without both there would be nothing, life can only be created from life. there is no none life building blocks included in that scenario.

reply to post by lifeform11


By scenario, do you mean 1983 at the local drive-in theater? Anyway, I am not going to argue with you whether the egg or chicken came first.

reply to post by addygrace

Your reply was, "Not everything has to be observed in science."

hts right I did say that and I was not equating abiogenesis with gravity or air. You were implying that everything in science must be directly observed and this is not the case.

No i wasn't. I was speaking about people auomatically assuming the OP was about evolution, and how their dogmatic fervency could be compared to bible thumpers.

Please explain how refuting ignorance of science as being dogmatic. No one ever says that the theory of evolution is all encompassing as you stated. I don't think I am the only one you thought you were referring to the asinine creationism vs. evolution in the classroom 'controversy'. Since you were not clear in your op it kind of appeared that way.

abiogenesis is taught in schools.

I know it is. Who said it wasn't. It is not however taught as fact. Abiogenesis is an umbrella term for the various hypothesis that attempt to explain the origins of life. The various hypothesis have evidence and experiments to back them up but there is no accepted theory. It is a field of science with intense research so of course it is touched upon but once again it is never stated that this is how life originated.

reply to post by Annee


well i respect your opinion. there is nothing wrong with keeping kids oblivious to the world around them is there? i think there is, and regardless of beliefs they need to understand them.
i think kids need to understand beliefs at the minimum if we are to live in a civilisied society. i know some will say or think but religions causes wars etc why teach the children etc. but i believe the only reason religion causes wars is because of a lack of understanding and respect for other peoples beliefs. they tend to only promote/teach one view.
which leads to conflict when it clashes with an other population who have only been exposed to one view.

Originally posted by AMANNAMEDQUEST
reply to post by lifeform11

 

By scenario, do you mean 1983 at the local drive-in theater? Anyway, I am not going to argue with you whether the egg or chicken came first.

niether am i, because i was not talking about an egg or a chicken. i was simply pointing out life cannot be created without life. or some form of living tissue.

Originally posted by Daughter2

Originally posted by juveous
[. The second you mention anything from the Bible or any other creation story to suggest the origins of earth, what is the point? How does this lead to a more scientific discussion? All you are saying is "what if"? There is no connecting line of thought that leads Its plausibility under what is taught in microbiology and chemistry.

The science taught in school is at least under accurate premises, as soon as you mention God, you give up that accuracy and start hoping you are correct. Not to mention confirmation bias to all new information

Maybe spiritual beliefs don't fit in with microbiology and chemistry but they do fit in with some physic theories.

Why not teach children to think "what if"? And I'm not talking just about religion. Just look at the theories about who built the pyramids. In my opinion, the mainstream science come about with silly theories just to exclude the possibility of "advanced help".

It's just advocating speculation not instruction. High school physics is not too concerned with getting the kids to learn theoretical physics and quantum mechanics that gives leeway for in depth views on reality.

I don't even know why you mention the pyramids, there are plenty of world-renown enigmas that baffle scientist, and I don't doubt teachers bring up their own opinions on them, but when you say "advanced help" you are suggesting that there is obvious evidence of this. There isn't, just a bunch of "what if's" no instruments, no special methods, and no obvious inclination of outside help other than slaves. - and because that his hard to believe, you say there must have been advanced help - Not the way instruction should be taught IMO -

If there isn't evidence to suggest it, it shouldn't be mentioned, not the other way around. **(It should be mentioned because it wasn't ruled out)

Originally posted by addygrace

Originally posted by megabytz
reply to post by addygrace

 

Please show one science textbook that teaches any of the hypothesis of abiogenesis as fact.

Why is abiogenesis even mentioned in school? Abiogenesis actually talks about life coming from non-life. The only thing we've observed is life coming from life, or biogenesis. My OP is basically stating; If we allow an imaginative idea about the origins of life to be taught in a science classroom, then what's the problem with teaching about other imaginitive ideas about the origins of life being taught in a science classroom.

Abiogenesis is not just an imaginative idea. It is an ongoing field of research. There are plenty of experiments involved with the study of abiogenesis and we have observed the building blocks of life arise from organic molecules. It is taught as an ongoing field of research, what research or experiments does the 'god did it' camp have.

God is not science. From the field of organic chemistry there is plenty of evidence that abiogenesis is possible.

If you are dismissing it because we have never observed life originating from organic molecules, have you ever witnessed life originating from divine creation? And again, there is evidence for abiogenisis and it is an intensive field of scientific study, how does divine creation compare in terms of evidence or science?

*crickets*

reply to post by addygrace


Why would I want my kids learning/indoctrinated into a religion that we do not believe. If you want your child to have a religious ideal that gets preached to them at an age where they have no choice but believe it, them send them to a private school. Don't force the rest of society to believe in your narrow-mindedness.

Originally posted by AMANNAMEDQUEST
reply to post by Annee

 

Anyone ever think of asking children what they want? No, of course not, someone could be worried the child will come up with their own conclusion or maybe get interested in something that's against the parent's religious stance.

They are children.

Ever heard of parents.

Originally posted by lifeform11
reply to post by Annee

 

well i respect your opinion. there is nothing wrong with keeping kids oblivious to the world around them is there? i think there is, and regardless of beliefs they need to understand them.

Belief is the responsibility of the parents.

Not the public school.

Children need to learn to read - write - do math - and it sure would be nice if school taught thinking - but they don't.

Children do not need to learn about different religious beliefs from a government school.

You will never convince the arrogant atheist that he may be wrong, and that alternate theories should be considered. The modern school system most certainly has a religion, and that religion is atheism. Contradicting it is heresy.

I mean, what do you expect? Atheists won't even admit that their belief structure and mentality has all the hallmarks of religion and thus is a religion. They're in denial about the most basic thing about their beliefs, don't expect that they can comprehend anything higher.

Originally posted by Observer99
Atheists won't even admit that their belief structure and mentality has all the hallmarks of religion and thus is a religion. They're in denial about the most basic thing about their beliefs, don't expect that they can comprehend anything higher.

I get so tired of this ignorance.

Lack of belief - - is not a belief.

Originally posted by Observer99
You will never convince the arrogant atheist that he may be wrong, and that alternate theories should be considered. The modern school system most certainly has a religion, and that religion is atheism. Contradicting it is heresy.

I mean, what do you expect? Atheists won't even admit that their belief structure and mentality has all the hallmarks of religion and thus is a religion. They're in denial about the most basic thing about their beliefs, don't expect that they can comprehend anything higher.

this is a perfect example of ignorence of a different belief, have you considered your views may be wrong? i do all the time, and come here to have them challenged. you talk about atheists as though they are lesser being than you. what gives you the right to think your superior just because of your beliefs?

try being more accepting of other peoples beliefs, and only worry about your own. what i believe or anybody else believes is none of your business and certainly their/my choice.

now where schools are concerned as far as iam aware they teach relgious education in schools, although i am in the u.k. so unaware of the u.s. , there are also churches that cannot be missed that people are free to walk into if they choose to. so i am not sure what your talking about. i do not exactly see atheist buildings all over the place promoting atheism and is tax exampt do you?

also are you complaining because they do not teach islam in school? or another certain religion? or all of them?
if you expect one certain religion to be taught why?

edit to add: i am busy now so i will check back latter, i am going to watch the atheist channel, i am missing my faviourte program.

Originally posted by Annee
Lack of belief - - is not a belief.

If you had a lack of belief, you wouldn't care what kids were taught, because all of it would seem equally likely to you.

You do have a belief: you believe there is no god, and you want the kids to also believe there is no god, and that's exactly what I said -- you forcing your religion of atheism on them.

Originally posted by lifeform11
you talk about atheists as though they are lesser being than you. what gives you the right to think your superior just because of your beliefs?

You're almost right with that statement. I DO believe myself superior to many people, because I AM. Because I've actually taken the time to do all the soul-searching and deep thinking to determine a great deal about what is correct, what is not, what is justifiable and what is sheer hypocrisy. I have achieved wisdom on a great deal of topics (no not ALL topics, just ones I care about) and I'm not going to pussyfoot around and pretend that everyone else is equivalent to me in terms of wisdom on those topics, because they aren't.

Just as you demean those of religion because they are "unenlightened" -- I state that you, also, are unenlightened, if you are of the opinion that you, a speck of a creature, on the planet-sized speck called earth, orbiting a speck of a sun, in a speck of a galaxy in a tiny piece of flotsam among the unimaginably huge cosmos, which may be one of potentially infinite universes, are qualified to state "THERE IS NO GOD!" That, friend, is the absolute height of arrogance, and I will not stop calling you on it just to make you feel better.

Even if every human and every creature in the universe (wherever they may be) had the completely wrong idea about god, it would still not negate the possibility of god.

Atheists (wherever they may be) who DON'T demean others' faith, but rather leave other people in peace; that state "well, I am of the belief that there is probably no god, but one can never be 100% sure", that would accept alternate explanations to evolution insofar as the overall picture painted contained a true and honest representation of our scientific uncertainties about evolution -- those atheists are perfectly fine. Their belief is their own and they don't inflict it on others, arrogantly, as most in this thread have done. Those atheists are few and far between, and I do not believe you are one of them. If you indeed claim to be, maybe I would bother to read all of your post history and make an accurate determination, and apologize to you in the case that you are.

Originally posted by lifeform11try being more accepting of other peoples beliefs

I have no problem with other people believing things that I don't. I do have a problem with them forcing those beliefs on young people, and atheism is the belief which you want to force on young people.

I could envision a classroom which is open-minded and inclusive about all religions including atheism, respecting faith while not endorsing any one faith -- but it's not what has been suggested by any atheist in this thread. Like I said, the atheists here (and everywhere, really) are still in denial that atheism is a religion. That stems from their desperate hatred of all things religious. It's terrifying to them that they could, in fact, be just another facet of that which they fear and despise.

Actually, the more likely explanation is that they DO know that atheism is really a religion, and they also know that continuing to pretend that it isn't a religion affords them preferential treatment, such as automatic indoctrination in all public schools.

Originally posted by lifeform11i do not exactly see atheist buildings all over the place promoting atheism and is tax exampt do you?

Fair enough point, yet atheism shares all of the important characteristics of religion:

- Shared belief regarding god concepts
- Evangelizing
- Dehumanizing and mocking the non-believer
- Intolerance of opposing beliefs

While not having a "religious building" per se to make use of for congregation, the atheist goes to worship at any number of places, either IRL or online, which are either inherently friendly to their belief system, and/or which they can socially control to make friendly to their belief system. I have seen many weekly gatherings of various totally non-religious activities (types of gaming for instance) where members will openly mock religion and receive praise from fellow atheist believers, glad that they mocked and ostracized any members of faith in the room.

This behavior is more prevalent on the internet, and many internet discussion forums are openly hostile to religion. Any such forum or gathering which is openly hostile to religion, is in fact a forum which endorses and in fact enforces the atheist religion, and can be termed a religious gathering of atheists, to worship their collective god concepts and reinforce each others belief systems. Such forums are very common.

Originally posted by lifeform11also are you complaining because they do not teach islam in school? or another certain religion? or all of them?

It would be very useful for kids to receive a class on various religions of the world, if it could be taught by an open-minded person.

Originally posted by lifeform11if you expect one certain religion to be taught why?

I DON'T want one religion to be taught, which is why I don't want the religion of atheism to be the default religion of public schools. But it is, and will continue to be, since that's what TPTB and the MSM want.

Originally posted by lifeform11i am busy now so i will check back latter, i am going to watch the atheist channel, i am missing my faviourte program.

You mean this sarcastically, but it's actually true. Most TV channels are quite atheist in that they convey a set of what I would deem amoral behavior and values, which falls squarely in line with the belief that there is no god. But at least in the case of TV, parents have an alternative choice which doesn't cost thousands and thousands of dollars, and doesn't force them to still fund the TV channels they don't like.

Originally posted by Observer99

Originally posted by Annee
Lack of belief - - is not a belief.

If you had a lack of belief, you wouldn't care what kids were taught, because all of it would seem equally likely to you.

You do have a belief: you believe there is no god, and you want the kids to also believe there is no god, and that's exactly what I said -- you forcing your religion of atheism on them.

i believe they should be taught all beliefs and then able to pick from them or some others if they so choose, they may never even be bothered about if there is a god or not.

but do you teach your kids or those around you about atheisim? or do you force your view on them?
from what i see and hear you are complaining about something most parents do regardless of their beliefs, it is not limited to atheism.

also if atheism is a belief then whats wrong with teaching my children it if you are free to teach yours your belief?

Kids shouldn't be influenced to believe in anything, especially God. Personally I believe in God, I made this decision by myself, it's an entirely personal matter and should not be part of a school curriculum. Children should be taught logic, reason and fact from fiction. Belief in God is neither an issue of fact or fiction it is purely opinion and speculation hence it has no place in school.

Schools should be used to educate, not indoctrinate. If you want your child to have specific spiritual/theological beliefs then educate them about this yourselves at home. Otherwise, let them make their own decision based upon their own experiences.

Originally posted by megabytz

Originally posted by Frontkjemper

Originally posted by Nobama
Because it makes sense?

Lol, and how does "we were made from nothing" make any more sense?

Do you know what a straw man is?

Can you name me one scientist that says we came from nothing.

We came from nothing sounds an awful like creationism actually.

I believe they were talking about how the theory of evolution says that everything just happened by chance from inanimate objects, etc., and not a product of intelligent design.

How does "we came from nothing" sound an awful lot like creationism? If you're insinuating that God doesn't exist, then it's not that it sounds like creationism, it just that you're just stating your own opinion. If, on the other hand, you've come to that conclusion from reading the Bible, then you need to read it again, because it clearly states that we did in fact come from something.

Genesis 2:7(KJV)
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19(KJV)
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.