ATF beginning to confiscate ammunition?

I'm kind of thinking the pawn shops will be full of $300 Ar variants soon...

and gun shops are probably gearing up for waves of trade ins no doubt.

I wonder if their gonna ask for the ammo or if their gonna have warrents for said ammo?

Originally posted by Anonymous Avatar
reply to post by fixer1967

 

If I remember correctly anything with under a 16 inch barrel is considered a pistol according to the BATFE. Again I am not 100 percent on this.

Obviously you can configure ARs and AKs and many other "rifles" with shorter barrels. If you have less than than 16 inch barrel you can not have a butt stock on the gun since it is considered a pistol.

For the armor piercing ammo law to affect a given caliber from what I understand unless something changed, there has to be a pistol with a 6 inch long or less barrel available to fire it. 7.62x39mm (AK-47) steel core ammo used to be widely available until Olympic Arms came out with a 6 inch barreled pistol for the caliber, for instance..

Originally posted by Masinger

Originally posted by Anonymous Avatar
reply to post by fixer1967

 

If I remember correctly anything with under a 16 inch barrel is considered a pistol according to the BATFE. Again I am not 100 percent on this.

Obviously you can configure ARs and AKs and many other "rifles" with shorter barrels. If you have less than than 16 inch barrel you can not have a butt stock on the gun since it is considered a pistol.

For the armor piercing ammo law to affect a given caliber from what I understand unless something changed, there has to be a pistol with a 6 inch long or less barrel available to fire it. 7.62x39mm (AK-47) steel core ammo used to be widely available until Olympic Arms came out with a 6 inch barreled pistol for the caliber, for instance..

Both kind of wrong.
A pistol is defined as a firearm basically being without forward grip and/or rear butt stock. Take for example an AR15 pistol. The barrel can be any length, long or short. It is manufactured as a pistol and engraved "Pistol" on the frame. Now, the AR pistol can't have a rear butt stock, but the AR does have a rear buffer tube, that can be shouldered. When either a vertical forward grip and/or butt stock is attached, the owner can complete a BATF tax stamp/form for $200 and walla, you have yourself an SBR (Short Barreled Rifle).

All this is, is a slow erosion of the 2nd amendment.
Plain and simple.

Typical BATFE fun and games. Change their "interpretation" of the laws so they can go after 1 person, 1 company or millions. Then they make it retroactive so they can create thousands of cases to prosecute if they want to.

I didn't see anything about the BATFE paying for that ammo they want people to turn in. So not only are they expected to hand over something that was perfectly legal for them to purchase but they should do it without compensation as well.

This is a pretty ridiculous example of making a boogeyman out of nothing. Most rifle rounds will penetrate kevlar, with or without fancy alloys or depleted uranium. (I wasn't aware DU ammo was being sold, might need to hit a few gun shows....

That's why people who want body armor rated for rifle rounds buy the plate armor. I don't want cops put in more danger but I also can't help but notice more and more of the criminals who actually use their guns also wear body armor. Even the corner kids selling crack make fun of the kids who only wear kevlar. The cool kids wear ceramic plate.

Originally posted by Screwed
Everytime i go to the gun range I am reminded of just how many people are in this country who own high powered firearms and that makes for alot of ammunition.
If the ATF is going to confiscate ammo I think it might me a little too late.
Most fire arm enthusiasts have plenty to get the job done.

Yep, I grin at the fact that we Americans purchased more guns and ammo than it would have taken to outfit the whole Russian and Chinese armies. All right before Obama was elected because everyone knew he was gonna go after the guns and ammo..



Its high time someone put a stop to this Administration at least, all though it would be nice to have a complete do over.

Since they make an AR pistol now, and all you need to do is swap the upper, every caliber that they make an AR upper in COULD be viewed as a pistol now. Hence anything up to and including the 50 BMG COULD be seen as a pistol round by the way the are now looking at the rules.. I agree it's totally wrong, BUT in the brave "New World" (Order) they are "allowed" to change the meaning of words. Think "marriage" , or meaning of 'is, is" as an example, Once it's ok to change the meaning of a word, any word, it's a slippery slope...

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by fixer1967

 

Both kind of wrong.
A pistol is defined as a firearm basically being without forward grip and/or rear butt stock. Take for example an AR15 pistol. The barrel can be any length, long or short. It is manufactured as a pistol and engraved "Pistol" on the frame. Now, the AR pistol can't have a rear butt stock, but the AR does have a rear buffer tube, that can be shouldered. When either a vertical forward grip and/or butt stock is attached, the owner can complete a BATF tax stamp/form for $200 and walla, you have yourself an SBR (Short Barreled Rifle).

All this is, is a slow erosion of the 2nd amendment.
Plain and simple.

Okay, I looked into it further and see that you're right.

Originally posted by wonderworld
reply to post by Anonymous Avatar

 

I’m still waiting for coded ammo/serialized ammo with the database. It still may be on the table. If they cant grab the guns they will go after the ammo!

That will never happen unless the politicians own the companies that manufacture serialized ammo. Or they arrange a sweetheart deal for massive kickbacks.

Regardless of all the explanations in this thread, this is an ammo grab by Obama, plain and simple.

Any one know where I can get a Westinghouse M95A1 / A2 Phased Plasma Rifle?

Originally posted by isthisreallife
Did I just read they're calling .223 rounds pistol ammunition?

How does that work? That's not even close to a pistol round....

Sure it is. Don't you know that since they say it is... it is?

::Sigh::

WTF is going on?

.223 is a rifle caliber. The only pistol I know of that uses a .223 is the Kel-Tec PLR series. They essentially are hand held rifles. I don't know any other way to put it than that.

Originally posted by Aim64C
It's just another bureaucratic bunch of nonsense.

For some weird reason, this type of round (I am not familiar with this class of weapon or ammunition - I'm only slightly more intelligent regarding this matter than the average politician/bureaucrat) has now been reclassified as a pistol round. Apparently, pistol-class ammunition has different regulations that apply to them - and these rounds are believed to be, by ATF command, to now fall outside of what is permitted, and hence considered illegal. Which means production stopped and a program for allowing current owners to turn in these rounds without penalty.

I see no reason to get all up in arms over it. It's not a 'gun grab' or an 'ammo grab' - just an ass-grab in politics.

The real issue is whether or not the government has the authority to regulate firearms and their ammunition.

On that token - if we are concerned about the government attempting to take away firearms/ammunition - it doesn't make sense that, if they cannot practically 'take away' firearms with dozens of moving parts and precision-milled components - they are not going to be able to take away the comparably far more simple ammunition produced in quantities several orders of magnitude greater than firearms.

I know. They starting to get scared. The question is WHY?

Um.... could some kind soul please explain a couple of things for an uneducated Englishman who knows nothing about guns, ammo, or what AP and AR and all that other stuff means please?

Also, I have read the first 2 and a half pages, but can't figure out the issue, kind of..... I understand they are banning .223 bullets because they can be used in hand guns. But hand guns are legal in the US, so I don't understand the logic behind this. Why not just ban .223 pistols and everything else can stay the same?

If someone could clue me in I would be very apreciative! :O)

Thanks!

reply to post by Shamatt


Well Pistols fall under much more strict regulations than rifles. By classifying the ammunition as pistol ammunition this would be akin to saying diesel fuel is now "fuel for cars." Even though there are a few diesel powered cars out there it is mostly used by trucks. Then they would say diesel has doesn't meet the same specifications as regular gasoline we need to confiscate all of the diesel. They don't change the regulations for trucks but they take away it's fuel that way effectively killing the trucking industry.

This isn't as all encompassing as the scenario above since there are lots of different calibers that rifles use, but this is certainly a significant step forward since I would say that .223 is by far the most popular caliber used in rifles these days.

Originally posted by Shamatt
Um.... could some kind soul please explain a couple of things for an uneducated Englishman who knows nothing about guns, ammo, or what AP and AR and all that other stuff means please?

Also, I have read the first 2 and a half pages, but can't figure out the issue, kind of..... I understand they are banning .223 bullets because they can be used in hand guns. But hand guns are legal in the US, so I don't understand the logic behind this. Why not just ban .223 pistols and everything else can stay the same?

If someone could clue me in I would be very apreciative! :O)

Thanks!

The ATF went after one company (so far) who sell custom .223 ammo which is built to penetrate kevlar vests via the materials used in the projectile and the construction of same. They pulled one of their standard tricks which is to re-interpret existing regulations and claim that these rifle bullets are now pistol ammo (due to the materials and methods used, not the fact that 223 pistols exist as many are claiming). By calling it pistol ammo it's no longer "legal" because of it's ability to penetrate kevlar vests and they want it pulled off the market and for everyone who bought it to turn in what they still have left.

The entire thing is just political BS, the ATF and the President showing they can get away with doing this (we'll see how our elected reps react, or not).

I can go buy perfectly legal ammo right now for my assault rifle AND my 9mm pistol which has the added feature of creating a lethal effect no matter where I shoot the criminal breaking into my house (disclaimer). It was first used by spec ops in Iraq who were overjoyed to discover they could kill terrorists by shooting them in the leg, arm or the unit favorite - the ass. Last I checked most kevlar armor does not protect those areas anyway.....

The root of this no penetrating pistol ammo regulation goes back to the "protect the police and make sure no one has better stuff than them" laws passed in the Brady gun grab circus.

So, to summarize -

ATF says rifle ammo is now pistol ammo. As pistol ammo the bullets are illegal because they can penetrate kevlar - no more selling those huge pistol bullets that go through kevlar and give us back any you bought but did not shoot anyone with, please (or else). This is NOT for ALL 223 ammo, just specific bullets of a specific brand made by one company (so far).

I can't wait to find out my knife is actually a bunker busting missile which I'm sure is coming soon....

reply to post by Anonymous Avatar


Thanks for that. I do understand the mechanism they are using. What is confusing me is the "because it can be used in pistols" link. You could go and buy one of a hundred pistols, and all the ammo you want for it. What is the cignificance that A) this amo can be used in both pistols and rifles, or B) that it is .223 amo?

Is the argment just that these powerfull rifle bullets should not be permitted in hand guns because of the tighter restrictions on them?

I wonder how many other hand guns with their native amo would be as powerful as this combination? Which again brings us back to the reason they are linking pistols and rifles? I can't see the logic.

Originally posted by Shamatt
................I can't see the logic.

And in there lays your problem. You are trying to apply logic. You are looking for logic where there is none.

reply to post by ecoparity


Thank you, now things make more sence.

Actually, no, they still make as little sence as they ever did, but at least I now understand the issue lol.

On the one hand I totally agree that it should not be possible for the thugs to outgun the police in any way - who would feel safe in that scenario? - the problem comes when the thugs are actually the police. There is a trend in the West (not just the US) and I expect it will be American public, armed up and angry, who will be the last ones standing when SHTF. Not that it will do you any good of course, but at least you guys will get to go down fighting.

Originally posted by Shamatt
reply to post by ecoparity

 

Thank you, now things make more sence.

Actually, no, they still make as little sence as they ever did, but at least I now understand the issue lol.

On the one hand I totally agree that it should not be possible for the thugs to outgun the police in any way - who would feel safe in that scenario? - the problem comes when the thugs are actually the police. There is a trend in the West (not just the US) and I expect it will be American public, armed up and angry, who will be the last ones standing when SHTF. Not that it will do you any good of course, but at least you guys will get to go down fighting.

edit on 12-7-2011 by Shamatt because: (no reason given)

I guess its a combination of the fact that there "are" 223 caliber pistols out there (the smallest of which is the size of an uzi or desert eagle 50 but whatever) and that these particular bullets are designed to penetrate the kevlar vests favored by most police.

The up to date drug dealers and crooks all wear plate armor (even when it's illegal for them to do so) and the crooks have plenty of penetrating ammo in every caliber.

What makes me suspicious is the fact that most crooks favor the AK rifles, shotguns, etc. The use of 223 / 5.56 rifles by criminals is just not that common.

The ATF line of BS on this is that they don't want law enforcement facing criminals armed with 223 penetrating ammo in 223 pistols / SBRs (11 inch barrel rifles). As the company who makes the ammo has pointed out, they are only one of a dozen companies with these type of bullets on the market but they are the only ones being targeted.

This company pretty much specializes in these type of bullets so the ultimate truth may turn out to be yet another ATF or lone ATF agent trying to run a specific person out of business. In the past, they've targeted individual businesses like this when the business owner is very politically active, associates with militias, or even writes anti ATF / Government articles on a blog or alt news source.

The last big incident I can think of involved a company who was selling 50 caliber sniper rifle kits you could purchase online (I don't remember if they were 80 / 90 percent type kits you could complete yourself with the right tools and skills).