Russia to boost defense orders by 40 percent in 2005: Putin

i'm with sminkeypinkey on this there is no real "need" for the US to have such a large force and wasting all that money for the sake of being no.1 is just ridiculous.

"Unless the US military wants to end up like Russia we need our 500Billion year. There is no other way if we shrunk our budget we would be messed up"

this is the danger of the military-industrial complex and of having a large defence force in times when it isn't needed. The military will just keep up eating and wasting money, the defence force is an insatiable beast that will never be satisfied and i'm sure the US will put the DOD's budget up much higher before any real change happens. The real problem IMO is that the US govt and people see themselves at the top and they feel they have to have an incredible amount of weapons to defend themselves because others are trying to get at them when in reality no nation in the forseeable future is a direct, hostile military threat and those that even are at odds with the US can be negotiated with.

And as for terrorism, we all know that's not a real threat to the US, it's just a way for defence contractors and security firms to make more money . If you want to stop terrorists you don't do it with a new abrams or an f/a-22, you do it by putting more money into education and law enforcement and by working out world issues such as the israel-palestine conflict and giving away billions to the poor around the world or giving incentives to corporations to set up manufacturing industries in third world nations that pay well and have good conditions.

Finally, as sminkeypinkey pointed out, the US deficit is extremely dangerous not only to the US economy but to the global one. The US owe more money to the world than any other country but other govt's aren't demanding it all back or anything because if they were to do that and the US couldn't pay we get another great depression, and i'm pretty sure trillions of that debt has gone right into paying for America's dangerous and pointless SDI programs. And how do we get ourselves out of a depression? a war or the threat of war. Then the cycle will start again. We need to see another paradigm shift.

thanks,
drfunk

And as for terrorism, we all know that's not a real threat to the US, it's just a way for defence contractors and security firms to make more money

Terrorism not a threat? what do you call 93 WTC 1998 2 US embassies 2000 USS Cole and 9/11 WTC/Pentagon. The US has given money to all the states to defend against terror and it has given more money to police station for more training and equipment in case of terror strike. Plus our deficit here is the deal, we always get someone like Clinton which shrunk our military and made it weak but he got rid of the deficit. Then we will get another one like Bush who raises military spending and makes deficit, then we get another Clinton... you see what im saying it always balances itself out. This is logical order we had Regan and Bush senior then we had Clinton now we have bush and after bush wither its thin November or 2008 we will get someone like Clinton again.

Having seen all the banter back and forth on this topic and I have to chime in:

The US defence budget, is only a small percentage of our GNP.

While the Bear may be back in its cave, the Dragon is stirring. Peace was never attained or maintained through weakness. The US needs to protect its interests abroad and if we have indeed hit peak oil, we will need it in the future.

hi guys,

It may be a small percentage of your GNP however because of the decentralization of the US economy the US governments budget is quite smaller. I believe that fpr fiscal year 2005 it is $2.399 trillion dollars and defence spending was at $474.1 billion. And may I add fiscal 2005's budget deficit stands at $363.6 billion.

that is 15.1% of your budget this year a deficit and 18% of your budget is spent on defence. You may be surprised to hear that the Defence budget receives 7.5 times more than what Education receives, 5.8 times what agriculture receives and get this, 15.25 times what the Department of Homeland Security receives, the people who are suppose to protect you people from terrorists . That deficit is incredibly dangerous because your government is spending money it doesn't have. It would be good if GW Bush and his administration actually learn that if you want to spend more in government you don't cut and reduce taxes and give money away to corporations who aren't paying their taxes anyway through loopholes .

Oh and US national debt currently stands at $8 trillion and plus the $350 billion in interest.

If the rest of the world ever asks for all of its money back, your govt has screwed us all.

Westpoint, you may be interested to know that the clinton administration did not get the US budget back into surplus until 1998 after years of reform and slowly dropping the budget deficit down so it was manageable and the US surplus in clintons final year, 2000 stood at around $230 billion dollars. The US budget went back into deficit during the 2002 fiscal year.

Even patriotic americans should see that their is a problem with this reckless spending.


thanks,
drfunk

Westpoint,

Those terrorist attacks you mentioned can't be prevented by the DOD. If anyone would be able to prevent them it would be Homeland Security. And terrorism is really not a threat, car accidents are more a threat to american lives but you don't see the DOD invading Detroit.

thanks,
drfunk

First of all I can guarantee you no one is going to ask for their money back anytime soon. Next terrorism can change the elections and cause social unrest while it is true you are more likely to die of a car crash car accidents do not affect foreign policy or change nation national elections. And the US in this time need the strong military for obvious reasons. Us bickering here about it s not going to change anything. The US DOD budget is not going to go down any time soon. Have nice day.




West Point, Out

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Russia uses about 60bil now so their spending is going to go up to about 80-85bil. Not tat dramatic but whatever helps them. Also did Putin give a reason for the increase?

My friend, maybe Russia feels very safe especially with the US going around attacking other countries. Perhaps they see there is a world war coming soon! Why? just read the news.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
First of all I can guarantee you no one is going to ask for their money back anytime soon.

- It's a figure of speech Westy. The Gov bills and bonds are sold on the basis of time. When the time expires you are expected to pay, it underpins the world economy.....it's bad enough when a Brazil or Argentina renege but the USA!?

Originally posted by FredT
Having seen all the banter back and forth on this topic and I have to chime in:

The US defence budget, is only a small percentage of our GNP.

- I'd say it's about balance Fred, your deficit is vast and your trade gap is enormous and all of that is not a great idea for the global economy.

While the Bear may be back in its cave, the Dragon is stirring. Peace was never attained or maintained through weakness.

- This is where this debate gets surreal.

You are not militarily 'weak' and have not been so since 1943 or so!

Russia and China cannot afford to 'catch up' even if they wanted to, never mind their giving absolutely no indication of even trying.

The US needs to protect its interests abroad and if we have indeed hit peak oil, we will need it in the future.

- defending ones' interests is one thing but domination of the globe quite another. If that is what you persue I believe (and every precedent shows) it will ultimately end badly for you.

of Russian military parity.. if it every came, would be the sheer fact that It would be done on the cheap. Russian state-run R&D still is run a shoestring, creating some of the most advanced weaponry in the world. The groovy point comes when they institute weapon systems which dont require millions of 17 yeatrolds in 25 yr old tanks.. but high tech digitally supported strike force (mmm 10 years?) with stateof the art air support...

uhhh or maybe not!

its not dead spending - the defense industry is a massive part of the US economy. Just think where this money goes and what it does - where do the workers spend their money - it promotes R&D and innovation.

It boosts the economy

My friend, maybe Russia feels very safe especially with the US going around attacking other countries. Perhaps they see there is a world war coming soon! Why? just read the news.

The US has no interest in attacking Russia, so I dot know why they would be afraid or feel unsafe. The chicoms are another story. WWIII is still a long time away, IMO.


[edit on 15-8-2004 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by Vanguard
its not dead spending

- no one is saying it is 'dead spending' but it is nothing like as productive as spending in the 'real economy'.

the defense industry is a massive part of the US economy. Just think where this money goes and what it does - where do the workers spend their money - it promotes R&D and innovation.

It boosts the economy

- Yeah to some degree that is true. The problem begins when the balance goes wrong....afterall what did those billions they spent for decades end up doing for Russia in the end?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The US has no interest in attacking Russia, so I dot know why they would be afraid or feel unsafe.

- because you are a strange lot.....(some of) you seriously think things like -

The chicoms are another story.

- what are you moaning about now, is China buying too much oil (in the free market) for your liking.....just to spite you guys!?

(naturally I see - according to some - the problems in the oil market are down to Chinese buying habits and nothing to do with US actions in the ME. LMAO)

WWIII is still a long time away, IMO.

- I think that is probably true but not for the reasons you imagine Westy and no thanks to your dangerous blind desire to compete even when no-one else is actually 'competing'.

Originally posted by Vanguard
its not dead spending - the defense industry is a massive part of the US economy. Just think where this money goes and what it does - where do the workers spend their money - it promotes R&D and innovation.

It boosts the economy

This is the point I try to make over and over again. Reagan was ridiculed for the Star Wars concept, but how many innovations came out of it? Military R&D evetually finds its way into the civilian sector.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

- This is where this debate gets surreal.

You are not militarily 'weak' and have not been so since 1943 or so!

That I believe is the point I am trying to make. We are strong, and spending money on the military insures we stay there.

-I think that is probably true but not for the reasons you imagine Westy and no thanks to your dangerous blind desire to compete even when no-one else is actually 'competing'.

They are competing or at least trying too, and we cant stop researching new tech and weapons. China Russia the European countries are trying to produce new things although they are not as good as the US it doesn't mean we should stop. Our economy argue as much as you want is growing at about 4% which is not bad at all.

Originally posted by gattaca

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Russia uses about 60bil now so their spending is going to go up to about 80-85bil. Not tat dramatic but whatever helps them. Also did Putin give a reason for the increase?


[edit on 12-8-2004 by WestPoint23]

As I understood itsn't about all military budget but about budget for defense orders - and it's only 2.5 billion dollars

))) so there is nothing to worry

))

ups.one a moment.there is stated that this is 2.5 billion dollars but I'm not sure if it isn't mistake.Isn't 25 billion $???

Hmm..maybe somebody could help - I think that mayby Russian would know but I didn't see him for a long time in the forum

[edit on 16-8-2004 by gattaca]

Originally posted by WestPoint23

They are competing or at least trying too, and we cant stop researching new tech and weapons. China Russia the European countries are trying to produce new things although they are not as good as the US it doesn't mean we should stop.

so the gryffin isnt a good light fighter? funny how it had radar tech well in advance of your own.
or the armour we make isnt as good as american armour is it?funny considering your tanks use a lesser version of our armour that we give you.
or the HK MP5 is not as good as american weapons huh? funny how most antiterrorism units and SF units prefer the HK and is practically standard issue.

Radar F/A-22 has the most advance and powerful radar in the world. And England is not one of our enemies so I did not mean them when I said European countries(France, Germany). The MP5 OMG big deal. I�m talking about the big stuff tanks, jets, carries, subs, destroyers ,cruises, land troops ,advanced tech communications and bombers etc...those are the stuff that determines war not a antiterrorism rifle. All these things I mentioned the US has everything pretty much locked although you could argue about a few, still over the US is on top. Although other countries threaten to make some good stuff hence we need the huge budget.