UK Gets First "Sharia Controlled Zone".

In my own experience, Muslims have been very nice. I have only met three Muslims here in Toronto who have been difficult with me and in each case the difficulties arose, I believe, from their Islamic beliefs.

The most unnerving incident occurred at a place where I was working when a fellow employee, who was a decent guy, relatively new to the workplace, with whom I was having an innocuous conversation on some subject that I don't even remember, made a gesture with his arm, as if he were going to take a backhanded cut at me with a sabre, and said "I can kill you."

I was a little taken aback, but shrugged it off. He didn't really explain himself, but I think he was trying to say, in Muslim fashion, "This is who I am. Muslims are different from you "confident" westerners."

I got the message.

This person was new to the workplace, a middle aged man, who spoke English well but not perfectly, who may have had a psychological need to assert himself as more than just another awkward immigrant.

Fair enough. I get that. It makes human psychological sense. But from the perspective of an outsider, what it says is that Muslims, nice as they might be in other respects, have taken an element, physical intimidation, from the world of organized crime, and incorporated it into their religious life. It is part of their ethos.

"It is permitted for me to kill the infidel."

That's one general proposition that can't be part of any civilzed, pluralistic society. When Muslims or anybody comes to one of the pluralistic societies of the West, where civil order and fundamental equality are the norm and the foundation of the achievements of the whole society, they have to conform to the norm. The obligation is not onerous, but it is necessary.

We are tolerant but we can't tolerate values that actually poison our society, whether held by the banksters, organized crime, crooked politicians or different religious groups.

Wow, another pathetic thread full of tabloid trash taken as the truth.
You people will just believe whatever the right-wing, paranoid, xenophobic and sensationalist popular media empire tells you huh?
No wonder we're in the position we're in today with so many idiots swallowing the BS.

If one takes a conspiratorial point of view, as we do occasionally here on ATS, , one might be suspicious of all this confrontation in the streets with Muslims, particularly in Europe. The obvious solution to a situation where outsiders hold beliefs which are incompatible with the health of the society to which they wish to immigrate, is to prevent them from immigrating. It's simple common sense. But it isn't done. Why?

Would it be to the advantage of anyone in the host society to have the ordinary man in the street preoccupied with the "outsider in his face" rather than the larcenist holding office, or the corporation pulling political strings or the bankster ratchetting down the standard of living by laundering drug money and inflating the currency?

Just asking.

For every annoying Muslim I've encountered, I have encountered dozens of happy, friendly, sympathique ones, but in order to solve what problems there are, we have to be able to give the problems an honest airing.

Originally posted by Argyll

Oh no it isn't!

It doesn't have to be "official" or "legal"......but it is "real"
And people in the UK should be fearful, because this is the future.

We in the UK have not lost our heritage......................we gave it away in a hand cart!

Of course it has to be official or legal... otherwise it's NOT real

I could go around putting up posters saying anything I liked, I could ask someone to turn their music down... I could ask them for a quid to walk down my street.... NONE of this means anything.

Nobody has to do it....

Anyone can try and do anything they like... If you give in or bow down to them then that's YOUR fault.

Originally posted by ALOSTSOUL

Its clearly not official but it is real. If you believe it not to be so, you either:

Have never experienced such things.
Are blind.
Do not live in the UK.

ALS

Well I have 20/20 vision, live in the UK and no, I've never experienced any area that has Sharia Law.... that's because there ISN'T any.

If you buy into this nonsense and propaganda, then that's your business, but don't post it on here like it's fact... don't try and stir up more hatred and BS division with these moronic stories.

Just go to the Daily Mail archive, they'll have hundreds more stupid stories like this.

Originally posted by blupblup

Of course it has to be official or legal... otherwise it's NOT real

Really?

www.islamic-sharia.org...

How does the Islamic Sharia Council work?

95% of all letters received by the Council are related to matrimonial problems faced by Muslims in the UK. The other 5% are related to people asking for Islamic injunctions (fatawa) pertaining to their daily lives. Matters of dispute amongst Muslims groups have been also referred to the Council for resolution.

www.islamic-sharia.org...

Revealed: UK’s first official sharia courts

ISLAMIC law has been officially adopted in Britain, with sharia courts given powers to rule on Muslim civil cases.

The government has quietly sanctioned the powers for sharia judges to rule on cases ranging from divorce and financial disputes to those involving domestic violence.

Rulings issued by a network of five sharia courts are enforceable with the full power of the judicial system, through the county courts or High Court.

Previously, the rulings of sharia courts in Britain could not be enforced, and depended on voluntary compliance among Muslims.

It has now emerged that sharia courts with these powers have been set up in London, Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester with the network’s headquarters in Nuneaton, Warwickshire. Two more courts are being planned for Glasgow and Edinburgh.
September 14th 2008

www.timesonline.co.uk...

What isn't wrong with Sharia law?
To safeguard our rights there must be one law for all and no religious courts

The recent global day against the imminent stoning of Sakine Mohammadi-Ashtiani in Iran for adultery is an example of the outrage sparked by the brutality associated with sharia law's penal code.

What of its civil code though – which the Muslim Council of Britain's Shaykh Ibrahim Mogra describes as "small aspects" that concern "marriage, divorce, inheritance, custody of children"? According to human rights campaigner Gita Sahgal, "there is active support for sharia laws precisely because it is limited to denying women rights in the family. No hands are being cut off, so there can't be a problem …"

Now a report, Sharia Law in Britain: A Threat to One Law for All and Equal Rights, reveals the adverse effect of sharia courts on family law.

www.guardian.co.uk...

Sharia courts operating in Britain

Lawyers have issued grave warnings about the dangers of a dual legal system and the disclosure drew criticism from Opposition leaders.

Dominic Grieve, the shadow home secretary, said: "If it is true that these tribunals are passing binding decisions in the areas of family and criminal law, I would like to know which courts are enforcing them because I would consider such action unlawful. British law is absolute and must remain so."

www.telegraph.co.uk...

New Report by One Law for All (June 2010)

“Sharia Law in Britain: A Threat to One Law for All and Equal Rights”

Sharia law’s civil code is arbitrary and discriminatory against women and children in particular. With the rise in the acceptance of Sharia courts, discrimination is being further institutionalised with some UK law firms additionally offering clients advice on Sharia law and the use of collaborative law.

- Sharia law is practiced in Britain primarily by Sharia Councils and Muslims Arbitration Tribunals. Both operate on religious principles and are harmful to women although Muslim Arbitration Tribunals are wrongly regarded as being of more concern because they operate as tribunals under the Arbitration Act 1996, making their rulings binding in law.

www.onelawforall.org.uk...

Originally posted by detachedindividual
You people will just believe whatever the right-wing, paranoid, xenophobic and sensationalist popular media empire tells you huh?

Can be believe what a Congresswomen tells us?

America's home-grown terrorists are now a 'global threat' and the US should look to Europe to learn how to deal with the problem, a prominent US congresswoman has warned Barack Obama.

Today there is no doubt that radicalisation is taking place inside America. The strikingly accelerated rate of American Muslims arrested for involvement in terrorist activities since May 2009 makes this fact self-evident.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Originally posted by Partygirl
Imagine that to be a member of the Blue Family, you had to obey all sorts of gangland rules and code. You have to wear something blue, you have to flash a certain sign at other members to prove you are a member, etc. Imagine the symbols, rituals, and lore of the Blue Family are every bit as ancient as anything in Islam.

Now imagine members of the Blue Family start spreading out everywhere, making their code the law of the land, interferring with anyone who objects.

There's a problem with this analogy, because you are linking the formation and expansion of the Blue Family, a gang with explicit criminal origins and intent, to the expansion and increasing popularity of a religion which does not have criminal foundations.

The Blue Family would be more analogous with the Mafia or the Triads, whereas Islam is more analogous with Christianity.

Just as Christianity is, and has been, used by some criminally minded people to further control within their communities, so to is Islam used by some criminals from a Muslim background to solidify control within theirs.

Originally posted by Partygirl
But imagine that every time you mentioned the words "Blue Family" you were treated to a barage of: "not everyone who wears blue is a criminal! And there are plenty of other crimes that are not committed by the Blue Family. Better not talk about it or somebody will think you are prejudiced." So, made to feel guilty, the noticier says nothing, so nothing changes and the Blue Family gets bigger than ever.

The Blue Family, as you have described them, are an inherently criminal organisation. Anyone wearing blue would be associating themselves with this family's criminal intent. Criticising them would be perfectly reasonable, just as it would be valid to call everyone who associate themselves with La Cosa Nostra, a bunch of wankers ( obviously, well out of earshot ).

This is completely different to a criminal family using useful interpretations of their religion to exert another layer of control over an intimidated community. Judging all Muslims on high-profile cases of criminality from members of some of their communities is prejudiced and devoid of understanding to the realities of the situation.

The biggest mistake which those who are prejudiced against Muslims tend to make, is lumping all Muslims in as one, homogeneous entity.

This is completely ignoring the fact that, just like other religions, there are a wide range of sects and denominations within Islam, and a varied interpretation of scripture within these various sects. Islam has spanned across three continents for centuries, encompassing a plethora of cultures, languages and races.

Yet, those who are fearful and ignorant of Muslims will ignore all of this, and form uneducated opinions, such as the belief that all of them want to have women wearing burqas ( an item which is worn in only a few Islamic cultures ) or that they'll want to stone adulterers to death ( despite the fact that this only happens in a few of the more backwardass Muslim countries or regions ).

Add to this, the complete lack of understanding that so many people have about the socio-economic factors that are also at play. There is a clear correlation between lack of education and the parts of the world where the more ''robust'' interpretations of the Qur'an are applied. The standards of living and education are far better in Europe, which is why Muslim extremism is usually confined to recent immigrant arrivals from the poorer Muslim countries.

So many people wilfully refuse, or can't be bothered, to learn and understand about Muslims or Islam, and instead opt for a knee-jerk, fear-ridden and xenophobic stance towards ''them''.

This is why Islamophobe is definitely the correct term for people like this.

Originally posted by Partygirl
Isn't this an odd reaction? Yet it is exactly what is going on all over Europe today.

It's not an odd reaction, because when stories - many of which are exaggerated or dishonestly reported - that portray a Muslim or a group of Muslims in a bad-light, the knee-jerk reaction amongst some people is to point their finger at all Muslims, as if they all unanimously agree with the strange ramblings of one cleric and that there's some massive group-think going on !

That's a far odder reaction. Not to mention an illogical, fear-ridden and paranoid reaction.

Would it be fair to judge you on every single hate-filled action or utterance that a Christian has ever done or said ? Should I assume that you and every other Christian wishes death on gay people because of what Fred Phelps' mob have said or because of the Ugandan government's and judiciary's actions ?

Of course not ! Why should you have to shoulder any blame or responsibility for actions of other Christians which you have no control over ?

Yet, some people will suspend common sense and tar all Muslims with the same brush when there is any negative news about individual members who happen to be of the same faith.

If more people took the time to analyse these issues from an objective, neutral position, then we wouldn't be so deeply embroiled in this vicious circle of ''us'' against ''them''.

“This will mean this is an area where the Muslim community will not tolerate drugs, alcohol, pornography, gambling, usury, free mixing between the sexes - [color=gold] the fruits if you like of Western civilization.

Hope the language filter is on but I call bull #!

Those are the fruits of fiat currency, NOT Western Civilization.

Western Civilization when compared to the East,
where we can even find one to compare it with,
consistently shows that the east is into keeping secrets and middle management to make moral judgements for the people. The Western Civilization is into publishing new discoveries and social mobility.


Are you a Muslim? Do you wish to make the world safer and protect your men from corruption? Then make them wear the burqa when they go out of the house.

But if Islam somehow thinks it's going to condemn the entirety of western culture with some bull # slander and sneak in to take all the credit for being against interest rates then I will make it my personal mission to make sure that Allah knows that they have been translating the Quran into other languages, that the entire community of Islam knows about it, and (worst of all) they tolerate it.

#ing retarded Mohammedans, you're being played to make yourselves unwelcome in the very country that started the whole "free the slaves" movement. Right now, Allah has more interest in protecting the UK itself than you easily distracted morons.

David Grouchy

And here is the video I just made after reading this thread.
I hope you don't mind ALS.

Originally posted by MrJohnSmith
Sharia law could never supplant / run alongside English law. I live in North Yorkshire,
U.K. Having said that, as regards drinking alcohol in public, there are certain public areas where carrying /drinking from open cans / bottles of alcohol is prohibited by local bye laws. Quite rightly too, in my opinion...

Yes, the Sharia law that has been permitted is in family courts for civil disputes. Exactly the same way as Jewish courts, the Beth din, have been operating in England for hundreds of years to resolve civil matters between two Jewish parties who have agreed to use this court to adjudicate the matter.

English law permits two people to resolve civil disputes by any third-party, provided that both people agree to it, and, most importantly, the rule of this court can not supersede the law of the land, and all judgments made by the independent court have to fall within the boundaries of English law.

As much as some people may like to fear-monger, both of these provisions mean that we will not have people legally stoning others to death or chopping hands off in Bradford city centre.


As you say, there are a number of bye laws that restrict public drinking, which is why a lot of people try to get around these by pouring and mixing spirits into the bottle of a non-alcoholic drink, so it just looks like they are drinking some Lucozade until you get too near them and smell their breath.

reply to post by ALOSTSOUL
[
Not surprised to hear any of this. Im fed up of the Uk becoming swamped. Have a look at this sit these people won't hear a bad word said www.sheffieldforum.co.uk... look a bit and you will find the drivel
I give up on this site please Help people

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


You made a valid point about different sects in Islam, having different view points etc. So, how do you explain these different sects, when Allah explicitly says in the Quran:

6:159 As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did

Islam today is divided into sects, the main ones being Sunni and Shia. The only real muslims are those that are called Quranist, because they follow the Quran Alone. All the other so called muslims follow the hadiths,

reply to post by Bob Sholtz

by the way, i'm not sure secularism is the word you want.

It sure is. But of course, when it is not your personal religion it can't be secularism in the works.

separation of church and state isn't what's being discussed, though i think it is a very good policy in the largest sense.

What's being discusses is utterly ridiculous and servers only those making money off fear. I understand what you say about some people being duped, but people in this day and age have no excuse left or they sure as hell are running out of excuses. It's 2011, look up, no invisible man. Stop being duped.

What exactly is everyones problem with sharia law ?
unless your a muslim then it doesnt apply to you in anyway , so why get all upset
when they have sharia law courts ?

Is it because you feel the muslims are trying to pull something over us all and try
to get out of certain laws that we are subject to ?

Im afraid it doesnt work like that , are you annoyed because they have laws of their own which they follow ?
do you too want to have the same laws on top of the laws we already follow ?

Im not sure where the beef is here ?
Every muslim in the land in the UK is subject to the same laws that anyone in the UK who is non muslim
however they are also subject to sharia law which is based entirely upon their religion
so they have extra laws to abide by .

What do you want more laws placed upon you too , so that we are all equal ?
they chose to be muslim or were born into the religion so therefore they are subject to the laws of their religion

they arent getting off with anything we arent

reply to post by teapot




Sorry.... but I didn't see in your post anything about not being able to drink in any area or not being able mix with the opposite sex or gamble....

You know, things that are in the OP!!

The OP states

HARDCORE Islamists have vowed to ban booze and mixing between the sexes in new Sharia law enforcement zones across the UK. The move will see specific areas flooded with thousands of stickers saying “no gambling”, “no music or concerts”, “no porn or prostitution” and “no drugs or smoking”.

My comments of this being BS and not enforced, real or legal still stand.

You do realise that Orthodox Jews also use their own legal courts in the UK right? And have done for years.

Jewish courts are in daily use in Britain, and have been for centuries. British Jews, particularly the orthodox, will frequently turn to their own religious courts, the Beth Din, to resolve civil disputes, covering issues as diverse as business and divorce. "There's no compulsion", the registrar of the London Beth Din, David Frei, said. "We can't drag people in off the streets." Both sides in a dispute must be Jewish, obviously, and must have agreed to have their case heard by the Beth Din. Once that has happened, its eventual decision is binding. English law states that any third party can be agreed by two sides to arbitrate in a dispute, and in this case the institutional third party is the Beth Din.

So where are all the "OMG!! Judaism tries to trump UK legal system" threads?

There are none because people have an Anti-Muslim agenda....

All you morons who post in these threads about Muslims and how they're evil and want to take over the world are just fear-mongering bigots.


The Extremist Muslims are a serious problem, I am not ignorant and I am well aware there there is an element within Islam that has an ulterior motive, much like there are groups right here in the UK that are the same.... The BNP, EDL etc etc....

All these extremists groups are trying to get "their" people to be in charge and "get rid" of anyone who isn't their kind and who opposes their views.

Extremism is bad.... from all sides.

Trying to sensationalise and blatantly make up crap stories, such as those in the OP, doesn't help anyone and does nothing to solve any problems there are, perceived or otherwise, between religious groups and ethnic groups.

The only thing that will help is tolerance, education and respect.


Not bigotry, ignorance and blatant propaganda.

reply to post by blupblup


Right on man !

some people just fall so easily for the trap , the funny thing is the ones that fall are usually the ones who do actually have problems with xenophobia and are usually bigots to others already !
The ones who cant actually be bothered to look deeper into the rabbit hole and find the truth , they just take things for face value.

I really don't believe this is the case - i mean, I don't deny that it exists, but I don't think they are enforcing this on bystandards. I'd like to hear a few more stories from people who have seen this or have first hand been approached by these guys.

It seems a bulk of the topic is people speaking with no experience / information. The OP who posted this gave this real cartoonish story that sounds more like an excuse to why they're turning in their homework late than an actual encounter - but I don't mean any rudeness to them - i just don't buy it.

Originally posted by Zamini
reply to post by Bob Sholtz

 

by the way, i'm not sure secularism is the word you want.

It sure is. But of course, when it is not your personal religion it can't be secularism in the works.

separation of church and state isn't what's being discussed, though i think it is a very good policy in the largest sense.

What's being discusses is utterly ridiculous and servers only those making money off fear. I understand what you say about some people being duped, but Stop being duped.

indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations

www.merriam-webster.com...

that isn't what i was describing. i see islam as an apple with a rotten core. nowadays non-radical muslims wish to move away from the rotten core(and thats all well and good, but to deny the rotten core exists defeats the purpose of reform), and establish a religion of peace. problem is, violence is still the core.

i can only speak for what i believe, but with the crusades, god certainly did not will that. that was human arrogance using religion for their own ends.

rape is sexual abuse, that does not mean all sex is wrong. in the same way, the crusades don't invalidate christianity, but they do show that it can be abused and twisted.

people in this day and age have no excuse left or they sure as hell are running out of excuses. It's 2011, look up, no invisible man.

this isn't a debate over whether god exists or not. that is a completely different topic.

Originally posted by PurpleDog UK
reply to post by NadaCambia

 

Hello NadaCambia......

We've spoken before ...... my one question to you is this............''what is your solution to the initial problem discussed by the OP?'

Thanks and kind regards

PDUK

Hey PD... I don't think it can be easily answered tbh with you. It's a very complexed situation. Anyone trying to push religious laws onto people, I'd be happy to see them arrested and punched in the face.

But again we can't just run around beating up religious bigots. Even as an Atheist I couldn't condone it.

There's many hypothetical scenarios I can give you for making this country better, all of which will never happen.

I know to those on your side of the argument I will sound like a naive PC liberal (maybe not you, I'm not trying to claim to know you, merely speaking in generalities), but my family has been on the worst side of immigration and Islam. I just believe in making your enemies your friends. That's the only way I see the battle being won. Westernise the Muslims... And it is happening, slowly.

Originally posted by Skellon
reply to post by CitizenNum287119327

 

Strange thing is... I could turn a corner late at night and wander into 100 Jewish men and I would not feel as if I was in danger.

I cannot say the same about muslims.

It is a real shame that moderate muslims end up getting tainted with the same brush in that sense, however, the media and it's portaying of stereotypes has not really helped either.


Regards, Skellon.

That's because there is no Jewish ghettos. Muslims often live in abject poverty. The issue is not religious, it's a class issue. Find me a community of Jews in England living in the poverty you find in Muslim or even white communities and you will feel threatened, I assure you.