Question about Eastern Star

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posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 12:45 AM
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[unwise, late-night story deleted]

[edit on 13-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]




posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 12:48 AM
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Originally posted by DetectivePerez
"Yes, many people believe that, Masons or no."

What do you believe?


I personally believe that a star is just a picture, and that if it's used by an organisation, it's up to the organisation to decide what they mean by it. After all, we don't ordinarily see five-pointed stars in nature (except possibly starfish), so they don't have any natural symbolism (unless you want to make some analogy to starfish). So, it's up to each person.

P.S., just in case that's unclear to you, I do not believe the star is a Satanic emblem. I believe some Satanists may use it for a symbol (I don't know... I've never known a Satanist to my knowledge), but that's not my responsibility, nor is it the responsibility of my dear and worthy sisters.

[edit on 13-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 12:49 AM
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The 5 points on the Pentagram are actually THESE points:

1. West Point, NY

2. Point Pleasant, NJ.

3. Little Five Points (core of the alternative scene in Atlanta, GA)

4. The boiling point, 365 degrees (360 degrees on the Sumerian Calendar)

5. Point-of-Fact

Notice that these "TALKING POINTS" are provided as a public disservice for the posters that I am not reading because I disbelieve in them

. . . Is it working yet? (rolls 2d20 for saving-throw check.)

Q: How do you petrify a troll?

A: Hold up a mirror, darkly.

French Canadian Bean Soup.




posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 12:49 AM
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Many long years ago, there was a popular comedian on UK radio. Lugubrious, almost "sad sack" style of delivery. Everyone used to crack up when he introduced himself - "I'm the man from Wagga Wagga".

DetectivePerez, you are so like him in style. Have you ever considered stand-up comedy?

No matter - the witty erudition on this masonic-bashing forums is not to be missed IMO, and I have learned so many points of fact in this one! AK, Downunderland is well supplied with Jasmine Tea, which I find wonderful for migraine. You should try Asian stores or restaurants where I'm sure you will find it.

[edit on 13/8/04 by Bastet]



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 12:59 AM
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Welcome Spammers!
Well you dont see me writing jibberish nonsense in your threads now do you I keep to my own threads or threads that I find relevant.
Why are you trying to ruin this thread with you off subject car/food/whine chat?
If you dont like what is being posted then dont post in here!
Basted well I guess I have to read more about you but I have only seen you pop up to either say bwhahaha this thread sucks or MODERATOR hes not playing nice (reminds me some kid I went to School with who always ruined the fun we had by running and telling the teachers)
Dont try to get this thread of topic please fabricate your so called free thinking ideas another place.
You obviously know we are on to something otherwise you wouldnt try to ruin it!

Baron Bilbo Baggins
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone

An Enemy Of My Enemy, Is Still My Enemy!!!



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 01:02 AM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
French Canadian Bean Soup.


That is a very good kind of soup. I understand that they serve it on the cruise from Vancouver to Alaska (sorry, I don't know what city it stops at). I think it would be awfully romantic to have French Canadian Pea Soup as the mist curled around the ship and you stood on deck in a thick greatcoat.



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 01:05 AM
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That's a wonderful idea - being on deck supping some wonderful French Canadian Pea Soup. And watching for the rising of the Eastern Star.



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 01:06 AM
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"The right-side-up pentagram has been used by various Pagan religions for thousands of years. The inverted pentagram had been used by "old-school" medieval Satanists in their ceremonies that were simply the reverse of Christianity and a rebellion against it. Such pentagram was a magical symbol, as opposed to a religious symbol, like the inverted cross. During the 19th century, the magician Eliphas Levi, apparently, became the first person to "officially" distinguish the inverted pentagram as the symbol of "evil" (of medieval Satanism). The bottom point of the inverted pentagram pointed down, i.e. to "hell", or was a representation of winter (as opposed to that of a "regular" pentagram which represented "summer"). The inverted pentagram, often contains the image of the Baphomet, or the goat - the horned "god". Much later, Anton LaVey made the Baphomet the "official" symbol of the Church of Satan."

webhome.idirect.com...



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 01:18 AM
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Oh dear, back to Satanists, are we, DetectivePerez? I think you really should be discussing this in a more appropriate forum then, not in Secret Societies.

The site you quote from is about Satanism & has diddly to do with Freemasonry. I quote directly from the site in your link



What is Satanism?

Satanism has nothing to do with worshipping the Devil, Satan, or any other higher force. In Satanism there are no Gods, you are your own "God".

Satan in satanism isn't the same as in worship of the devil. In satanism, Satan is pre-Christian, and comes from the Pagan image of power, sexuality, sensuality, and virility. To most satanists, Satan is a force of nature, NOT a god. It has nothing to do with Hell and evil, unlike the Satan that is worshiped. Devil worshipers build their beliefs on the Christian beliefs, because they worship the EVIL Satan, the ruler of Hell, the devil in the Bible. To Satanists there is no God, no Heaven, no Devil and no Hell. The only god there is, is themselves, and if they DO believe in another god, it's one of their own personal creations.


webhome.idirect.com...



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 01:24 AM
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So what you are saying DetectivePerez, from what I can gather from your post, the pentagram has only been officialy evil for about 150 years and officialy "satanic" for about 50 years...

Wouldn't it be fair to say that since the masons were appaerently using the symbol long before it was "officialy" evil or satanic that maybe, just maybe, the masons usage of it is not evil or satanic...?



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 01:27 AM
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Originally posted by DetectivePerez
webhome.idirect.com...


Sigh. Well, I guess we're back to this again. I find it incredibly interesting that "Detective" Perez was terribly, terribly interested in whether I thought the pentagram represented the head, hands, and feet, until I made it clear that I thought that, as it is a symbol, it can be interpreted any way the designer wishes.

Apparently, our "Detective," has a semiotic philosophy which is traceable to the Middle Ages, namely the feeling that words are entities in their own right, and that they perhaps even have more reality than their referents. So, if a star means "Satan" to someone, it must mean "Satan" to everyone. If you prescribe to this kind of philosophy, well, no amount of arguing will convince you that the OES is innocent of the charges you sling at them. Fortunately for the rest of us who live in the post-Wittgensteinian world, we can realise that semiological signs have different referents in different contexts.

Now as for your more grave charges that the OES is Satanic, since we are at an impasse regarding the meaning of the Star symbol, do you have any other evidence that these incredibly kind and self-sacrificing ladies are in thrall to the man-goat? Because if not, you owe them your humblest apologies.



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 02:21 AM
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"So what you are saying DetectivePerez, from what I can gather from your post, the pentagram has only been officialy evil for about 150 years and officialy "satanic" for about 50 years..."

The Pentagram Perverted and turned up-side down has been evil well BEFORE the 19th century, well before the Satanists adopted it and Well before the Knights Templar.

Go do a google search on the Chinese and Indian culture regarding the Pentagram. You will find that they were faced UPWARDS. To turn them up-side down would be to spit upon the face of the people. Indians and Chinese had the Pentagram before Masons did. Why did they have to corrupt the symbol? Taking the Star and Inverting it, is just as bad as taking a cross and inverting it.

So here it is folks. The Pentagram did exist before the Masons and occured in various places in the world.

Look at various religions. Many creation stories begin with and tell about the same types of occurances. Such as the theme of an endless abyss or a desolate place. Now look how many pagan religious have a pentagram included.

All masons have to do is believe in a supreme being. So if you worship a goddess why would you join the Masons? They have defiled your sacred symbol. Next come some Indians from India. Well, they defiled your Pentagram by Inverting it as well so why would you join. Chinese? Nope, you defiled their symbol as well. But wait... Look at this. Satanists believe themselves to be supreme beings. Satanists adore the Inverted Pentagram.

What is a Christian doing with a Star Symbol anyway?

Hey folks, when it looks like the rest of the world is doing one thing and you are doing something totally different with the exception of Satanists, wouldn't you too get worried if you were a Mason?

I mean, why not the lamb? Why not a Dove or the Olive tree and the Seven Candled Lampstand?

[edit on 13-8-2004 by DetectivePerez]



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 03:04 AM
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Originally posted by DetectivePerez

What is a Christian doing with a Star Symbol anyway?


I mean, why not the lamb? Why not a Dove or the Olive tree and the Seven Candled Lampstand?

[edit on 13-8-2004 by DetectivePerez]



Tell me this, why does it matter...all these are just symbols. Im sure if I wanted to WASTE my time and energy like you seem to do, I could find dig up "proof" that all of the symbols mentioned above were used in some unholy way. Whats with the fish symbol I see on the bumpers of many peoples cars who call themselves christians.

Before Christianity adopted the fish symbol, it was known by pagans as "the Great Mother", and "womb". Its link to fertility, birth, and the natural force of women was acknowledged also by the Celts, as well as pagan cultures throughout northern Europe.
www.open.org...


Does this make them pagans or satanists, by your logic it does.


And look at these links to "prove" people who follow the cross are evil also.

www.nazarite.net...
www.nisbett.com...

I'm sure I can find many more examples if I were so inclined.

Anyone can play your game, its easy. Until you can prove that the Masons use of the pentagram is in FACT satanic or something other than what they say it is, you're just speculating as to what you THINK it means.



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 03:16 AM
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Are you at all reading whats in this thread before posting?
This thread is exactly where it is supposed to be, you trying to cloak what we are writing with you propaganda and off topic stories without essence.
You are actually acknowledging the so-called predigest we seem to have according to you MASONS/BASTET.
If we where ignorant and totally way off, I find funny that you take the effort to screw this up, if it had no substance this thread would have died.

So what you are basically saying is that this!



Picture taken from: www.davidicke.net...

Has nothing to do with this!

[Img] www.davidicke.net...[/img]

Picture taken from: www.davidicke.net...

Nice good for you we do see the connection remove all the symbols within the symbol and you have the same symbol that symbolises in most of the world from USA to INDIA the incarnation of demons!
Now remember that I am not saying that the normal or upright pentagram is evil in any way actually I am saying that it is a good Sigil, IT IS THE INVERTET PENTAGRAM IN ANY FORM! That is evil.

[Quote] Inverted Pentagram
the pentagram may be inverted with one point down. The implication is of spirit subservient to matter, of man subservient to his carnal desires.
the inverted pentagram has recently come to be seen by many pagans as representing the dark side and it is often abhorred as an evil symbol.
the inverted pentagram is the symbol of Gardnerian second degree initiation, representing the need of the witch to learn to face the darkness within so that it may not later rise up to take control.
The centre of a pentagram implies a sixth formative element - love/will which controls from within, ruling matter and spirit by will and the controlled magical direction of sexual energies. This is another lesson of initiation.

Quote from: www.mysticalplanet.com...

Now we are not arguing that some pagan and Wicca religion only recently started to see this symbol as evil, nor are we arguing that the Sigil of Baphomet is a new Sigil. What I would like to point out is that the inverted pentagram has always been an evil Sigil.

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

ariadne.uio.no...

Now the last link is in Danish and I will translate some of the things in it but for a full translation you will have to learn and do some of you own research *LOL*
Btw: is it a quote if I have translated it?

[Quote]In Rakkeby church south of Hjoerring, some inscriptions were found in 1984 wile repairing the walls of the church, they were found in the northern wall, one of the symbols that could be identified where the inverted pentagram now this was found with runes made at the same time about 1000 AD.

Know this shows that before Christianity has taken its grip on our little country we had the inverted pentagram as this church were the first church to be build in Denmark.
Again to make my point it is known in the Danish history that in fact the downward pointing pentagram meant summoning of demons/giants and the upright pentagram meant protection from giant/demons.

For more on Danish history please read before you question the truth of what I write in relation to the Danes off course.

www.historie-online.dk...

Dont try to twist this subject any more you have all ready lost!

Baron Bilbo Baggins
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone


"What is history, but a fable agreed upon?"

[edit on 13-8-2004 by NeonHelmet]

[edit on 13-8-2004 by NeonHelmet]



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 03:24 AM
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Well done NeonHelmet. Thank you for clarifying a lot of what I am trying to show.



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by DetectivePerez
Taking the Star and Inverting it, is just as bad as taking a cross and inverting it.


You mean a cross of St. Peter, an emblem of the Papacy and the Catholic Church? You've just proven my point for me. The Cross of St. Peter is considered a holy emblem, and refers to the way St. Peter was crucified (upside down, because he didn't want to be compared to Jesus.)

Now I suppose we'll get a big rant from you about how the Vatican is also Satanic. Frankly, I think most reasonable people should see by now just where you're at.

[edit on 13-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by AlexKennedy
. . .
Apparently, our "Detective," has a semiotic philosophy which is traceable to the Middle Ages, namely the feeling that words are entities in their own right, and that they perhaps even have more reality than their referents. So, if a star means "Satan" to someone, it must mean "Satan" to everyone. If you prescribe to this kind of philosophy, well, no amount of arguing will convince you that the OES is innocent of the charges you sling at them. Fortunately for the rest of us who live in the post-Wittgensteinian world, we can realise that semiological signs have different referents in different contexts.
. . .



Point of Order, Mr. Kennedy.

I am a Neoplatonist; meaning that I DO believe that words have reality independent of their referrents. But it does not follow that if someone falsely ascribes meaning to a sign, that the value is changed for everyone.

THAT IS the fallacy that Defective Peretz makes. He assumes that he sits on God's throne, or at least is looking over the Deity's shoulder, when speaking on the TRUE meaning of various signs and sigils. His ex cathedra pronouncements are typical of a lack of appreciation for allegory and nuance. HIS is the black/white, true/false world of Kantian rationality, where a thing is only one thing at a time.

A symbol doesn't mean one thing, it means a hundred things.

Please don't lump all Essentialists in with Defective Peretz. His error comes from his need for exclusive definitions, and not from his poorly worked out philosophical stance.






posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 11:15 AM
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No, of course not. I too have neoplatonist leanings. But believing in the existance of eidos does not mean the same thing as believing that all human signs have a definite denotation, separate from the designer's intent. That is to say, "redness" refers to an eidos, "love" refers to an eidos, but a five-pointed star, or the word "skinnamarinkey-do" do not.

No offense intended to the wise neoplatonists.



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 12:06 PM
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Take a look at the emblem of the OES posted above,(not the pentagram with the goat head in it), see that alter, and that book. Oh My gosh, I wonder what that is, its the HOLY BIBLE, wow, kinda contradicts your satanic claims doesnt it?



posted on Aug, 13 2004 @ 12:41 PM
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I cant be any clearer on this READ THE POSTS, before you make an ignorant remark about something that is untrue, for you own sake READ THIS THREAD THROUGH!
Now I am not saying that all in the Masonic lodges are devil worshippers, I am saying you are all working towards the common goal and that goal isnt good.
To my knowledge its more like 10% of the masonry that is infected, the bad part about this is that it is the TOP of the lodge who worship Satan, and have all of you manipulated into thinking we are doing something good here I am a faithful believer in Jesus and warrior against ignorance.
Thats just what they want you to think, without you they wouldnt have any power, in fact without the Americans support to dictators like Bush (president) the world would know peace.
The problem with the top 5-10% is that you would never know something to prove me wrong, as entrance to the inner sanctum is by bloodline only you are an instrument of the illuminati; it is also funny that most of links you come with is from your own Free Masonic pages
Now again I am not saying that I am Power Overwhelming or the Supreme Being and I dont think that, I am only writing things as I see them, and not a single mason/mod/pro-mason member in here has given much constructive in this debate!
Before you come crashing your little terrorist messages in here, I would like to be fair, AK/ZZZ/Dr.Strangecraft you have brought some constructive posts in to this threat but I also feel you have purposely brought a lot of BULL with you to.
Again this is only how I see the truth, please come with more points and facts that prove me wrong, but in the debate about the eastern star and the inverted pentagram frankly I think that all has been said.

IT IS WORLDWIDE A PERVERTION OF A GOOD SYMBOL!

Your claim as to the original meaning of the inverted pentagram has been proven again and again to be untrue.

www.conspiracyarchive.com...


Baron Bilbo Baggins
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone

Wallace's reasons for wanting to introduce the Great Seal onto the American currency were based on his belief that America was reaching a turning point in her history and that great spiritual changes were imminent. He believed that the 1930s represented a time when a great spiritual awakening was going to take place which would precede the creation of the one-world state.

Above quote is taken from: www.conspiracyarchive.com...





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