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Why Do Secret Societies Feel The Need to Group Together?

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posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 02:28 PM
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Read above post Leveller. I can see where the ambiguous feelings of Masonry come from now, if it is after all, an extension of religion.




posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Read above post Leveller. I can see where the ambiguous feelings of Masonry come from now, if it is after all, an extension of religion.


No. You've made a false interpretation that Freemasonry is an extension of religion. There is a big difference.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 03:21 PM
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No, it isn't

No, it isn't

Oh no

No

No, no, no, no....

I can't say why, but No.

LOL, OK, well in the words of Alex Kennedy, I'll say it's the "handmaiden" of religion. You and your silly semantics.

[edit on 16-8-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn


No, it isn't

No, it isn't

Oh no

No

No, no, no, no....

I can't say why, but No.

LOL, OK, well in the words of Alex Kennedy, I'll say it's the "handmaiden" of religion. You and your silly semantics.


Nice "quote", Jahmun. Well, you sure had me fooled. Here I was, thinking you were a genuinely interested individual who wanted further information. Instead, you've decided to be a fool. Well, bully for you. But people with eyes can see that your "quote" is nothing more than sour grapes from someone who's been shown to be incorrect.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 03:55 PM
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I don't understand how I've been shown to be incorrect...I found out my answer:

That you are merely an extension of religion and the reasons surrounding why people join organized religion are the same as why they join Masonry.

I was genuinely interested because I was thinking of joining mostly because of the conversations you talked of having. But I don't need anyone, noone, nobody to tell me how I should worship God (if at all), and what my ethics and standards should be.

JUST SO EVERYONE KNOWS, THAT WASN'T QUOTING ANYONE SPECIFICALLY IN MY LAST POST.

And, I hope you know, I am not saying there is anything wrong with Masonry, after all, its all relative, but in my opinion I would not want to join Masonry after learning this. And you'll probably say, we wouldn't want you to join anyway.


[edit on 16-8-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
I don't understand how I've been shown to be incorrect...I found out my answer:

That you are merely an extension of religion and the reasons surrounding why people join organized religion are the same as why they join Masonry.




Ummm. How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that Freemasonry is not a religion or an extension of religion.
Freemasonry itself does not make this claim. Freemasons themselves don't make this claim.

You make this claim. And you are wrong.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 04:11 PM
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Seriously though, I don't want to come off as an ahole. It just doesn't seem like its for me. I am not into organized religion even though I went to a Catholic school. And anything resembling that I have a natural tendency to veer away from. My standard of ethics is most likely very different from Masonry as it does not even include the ethics of the US government.

But you guys seem very sincere in your wishes to improve yourself and those around you and I applaud you for that. And I admire your intense passion (even though it may come off as a bit strong sometimes). Keep up the good work and don't end up like this guy ->
. Just be patient with people.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by Jamuhn
I don't understand how I've been shown to be incorrect...I found out my answer:

That you are merely an extension of religion and the reasons surrounding why people join organized religion are the same as why they join Masonry.




Ummm. How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that Freemasonry is not a religion or an extension of religion.
Freemasonry itself does not make this claim. Freemasons themselves don't make this claim.

You make this claim. And you are wrong.



Yes, but it goes hand in hand with religion, am I correct? Sorry, but too close for comfort to organized religion.

[edit on 16-8-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Yes, but it goes hand in hand with religion, am I correct? Sorry, but too close for comfort to organized religion.


What do you mean by "hand in hand"?
Isn't that just another way of saying that it is an extension of religion?
If so then read my reply above.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 04:21 PM
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This is what I mean Leveller:


Originally posted by AlexKeneddy
No, Freemasonry might be appropriately described as "the handmaid of religion."


I don't really care how you want to call it. Read my post(s) above.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
This is what I mean Leveller:


Originally posted by AlexKeneddy
No, Freemasonry might be appropriately described as "the handmaid of religion."


I don't really care how you want to call it. Read my post(s) above.


Yes, but that doesn't mean that Freemasonry is a religion. The term "handmaid of religion" means that Freemasonry is meant to enhance your experience of and dedication to your own religion, no matter what it is. Freemasons absolutely believe in the individual's right of conscience in terms of how God is worshipped -- we don't do any worship (in the strict sense) in Lodge, so it's something you do in the privacy of your own home and church.

That said, if you displayed the kind of attitude you've shown here (including the made-up "quote") in real life, no, I would not want you joining my Lodge. Perhaps you could find one that would, but I doubt it.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 04:44 PM
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Haha, yep, ethics, the tricky subject. That quote was meant as a joke in the first place. In the second, while the thing with God might be true at least in your lodge, what makes an organized religion for me is an organization that subscribes to a fixed set of ethics.

Now, if you have to act the role in front of the "Lodge Master" to get in, then the ethics become fixed. I think its foolish that your lodge wishes to subscribe to fixed ethics. But hey, they probably serve you better than mine would, so good for you.

I have respect for the individuals of Masonry, but I have little or no respect for the organization, which just seems to me as little less than an organized religion.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 04:47 PM
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Ah, I see. Taking another quote out of context and twisting it around.

"Hand-maiden" implies a certain subservience.
"Hand in hand" implies equal footing.

As Alex has explained: they don't have the same meaning and aren't the same thing.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Yes, but it goes hand in hand with religion, am I correct? Sorry, but too close for comfort to organized religion.


No, not even close, since the mention of a specific religion is forbidden (under pain of expulsion, should the transgression persist). The presence of a Bible (or Holy Book of Scripture) is symbolic (each member inserts their own perception of Faith within its due bounds), and the use of prayer, and verse is instructional. The religious demographic varies from Lodge to Lodge, and country to country. Are they predominately Christian, of course, but use common sense, a Lodge in the Southern U.S. will have a different Christian theological base than one from Massachusetts, or London. So much for organization; then add your non-Western countries were Freemasonry is prevalent, and the whole thing goes out the window... a relevant substitute (Torah, Bhagavad-Gita, et al) for the Bible is used, reflecting the indigenous beliefs of that Lodge.

Now for the really weird stuff... any Mason (regardless of Faith) would be welcome in those Lodges... a far cry from "organized religions" tolerance. "But Uncle Mirthful, how can that be?" You might ask. The answer is simple, by taking the obligation, and donning the Lambskin Apron, the Mason has demonstrated first to himself, and his God, and then to the Brethren of his "True Faith" (which may be unique to him, but accepted by all). This demonstration extends throughout this World, and into the next, for no man who has knelt in darkness, ignorant of his surroundings, and would still profess his belief in God, has no fear in this mortal world, nor the next.

What it boils down to J, there is no organization, no underlying influence, merely trust, expressed as Faith to God (use your imagination, Deity is a many blessed thing), and faith to your Brethren only a man secure in his belief could extend such benevolence, and good will.

As a further note, you will notice that Masonic Light and I are on opposite ends of the political spectrum, yet no contention exists (he knows how wrong he is
) and likewise, within our small group here at ATS, a variety of religions are represented (I have never identified my Faith, just to see if anyone would ever guess), yet once again, there is no contention. All individuals, all different, yet holding the same values introspection would be the operative course at this juncture.

p.s. I watched todays banter with more than a little jealousy... too busy working to interject until now.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by Mirthful Me
(I have never identified my Faith, just to see if anyone would ever guess),


Condensed Rectified Universial Monkeyism, of course.

No-one knows my political leanings, although I bet a few could guess. It's irrelevant, because I know that you, MM, believe in improving society, and you would never let an innocent single mother starve, just as Masonic Light would never want to prevent a hard-working small business owner from having the just rewards of her hard work.

[edit on 16-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 07:56 PM
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Well, this is how I define religion:
1) Fixed belief or no belief in a diety, no - I don't knows - exist here
2) Ritual
3) Belief in certain rule of ethics

And then there is organization to make organized religion.
Whether it be a priest, low level, bishop, mid level, cardinal, upper level, elected pope, top level.

On another note, most churches allow non-believers/SUBSCRIBERS in the religion to attend their rituals.

A supplement, hand in hand

[edit on 16-8-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 08:07 PM
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For what it's worth, when the Chaplain is installed in my jurisdiction, he is delivered a charge that says "Though Masonry is not a religion, it is religion's handmaid." To be honest, this has always sounded like foolishness to me, and I have no idea how it got in there, lol.

As Bro. Coil points out in his Masonic Enctclopedia, if Masonry is not a religion, how could it be religion's "handmaid" any more than it coupld be politics' handmaid? Neither sectarian politics nor religion are brought into the Lodge for argument. Masonry recognizes that each individual has the right to speak, vote, and worship as he or she chooses, and recognizes the existence of that Eternal Being who created this Universe and breathed life into it, but these are generalities only, the specifics of which each individual Mason must decide for himself.



Originally posted by Mirthful Me
As a further note, you will notice that Masonic Light and I are on opposite ends of the political spectrum,


lol, I don't think we're separated that far politically. After all, the political spectrum, from left to right, is usually acknowledged to be the following:

Communism - Democratic Socialism - Liberalism - Populism - Conservatism - Fascism

The further left one goes, and the further right one goes, he or she finds dictatorship, while centrism is most likely to be both democratic, and provide individual liberty. The extremist left (Communism) and extremist right (Fascism) are polar opposites in ideology, but are very similar in practice.
Some political movements aren't as easily classified, though. Libertarianism, for example, is extremely "rightest" concerning the economy, but is very liberal concerning civil liberties.
In any case, I began my serious political activism in college as a democratic socialist. Since then, I've moved to the right and became a Liberal. One of the major reasons I joined Freemasonry was because I was proud of the fraternity's adopting the principles of Liberalism during the Enlightenment, and carrying it forward to the present day.

But, of course, the "conservatives" of today are not the same as the ones of the past. During the Enlightenment, the conservatives were the Tories and Churchmen who fought against self-government and freedom of religion. Today's true conservatives are actually a brand of Liberals; the word "Liberal", taken from the French word that means "free", simply means someone who believes in individual liberty.

It's not these conservatives that I oppose in public office, but the so-called "neo-Conservatives", who are far to the right of traditional American conservatism, and have adopted at least some Fascist ideology. The current administration is the most well-known representative of the so-called "neo-Conservatism".

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 08:19 PM
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But don't the rituals reflect a belief in a diety, or the prayers. I know they aren't merely christian, merely islamic, or whatever else, but an amalgamation of the various religious beliefs. And I wonder most at the pervasiveness of ethics. Ethics which is so very relative it is easy to alienate many. And then with non-Masons not being allowed to attend ritual. While Masonry doesn't seem like christianity or any other religion, it does take on the qualities of religion-in-general through its qualifications, rituals, and extent of organization.

I found this also on a Masonic website linking to it:

Hicks also explains that Masonry is not really a religious organization per se, although many of their practices are religious in nature. Instead, Hicks says Masonry is a society of men concerned with moral and spiritual values. As the Masonic handbook explains, Masonry emphasizes three fundamental ideas: "that God exists, that men are to exercise their faculties and work as God's instruments and that the work of men is to be performed in accordance with the principles of morality and justice." A bit more heady a charge than what you'd get from, say, the Rotary Club.


www.townonline.com... ss_feansmasonsideb09192003.htm

And this guy says the reason he joined is because of "good" people (whatever that could be) and to surround himself with "success" (whatever that means, morally, monetarily, public influence).

[edit on 16-8-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
And you are not privy to all the information of masonry when you first join, so its not like you know entirely what you are getting into.

Jamuhn
back to page one for a moment, what makes Masonry different from many other groups and activities. YOu could substitute words in the above quote to cover just about everything.

And you are not privy to all the information of (a new job, university, judaism, buddhism, catholicism, carpentry, modeling, nursing, parenting, etc. etc.) when you first join, so its not like you know entirely what you are getting into.



posted on Aug, 16 2004 @ 08:27 PM
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I was speaking in the context of rituals closed to the general public. You know, what makes it somewhat SECRETIVE. I thought that was implied when I say secret socieities.

[edit on 16-8-2004 by Jamuhn]



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