Originally posted by MamaJ
What doYOU have to lose by not believeing (thats all Jesus said you HAD to do)?

You may wish to investigate some of the many problems with Pascal's Wager. This could certainly clear up this question for you.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by MamaJ
Without getting mad and being defensive would you mind answering these three simple questions?

I am curious to know your answers.....

1. How do you know for sure, without a doubt, Jesus is NOT the Saviour as he claimed to "be coming back as he was going to prepare a place"?

There are several ways, actually.

2. Is it in your best interest to believe a "fairy tale", unlike Santa Claus who never claimed to be the Son of God?

I don't think it's a good idea for anyone to believe in fairy tales.

3. What do you have to lose by believing (without calling yourself a Christian)?

All the time devoted to it

No offense to you.....I am not surprised of your short undetailed answers. There is no logic IMO for to hate a man that spoke of love is not and has nothing to do with a Religion. Man has made religion. Jesus taled the talk and walked it to.

I believe in Jesus because I have spent most of my 38 years studying and researching his works and the works of many other spiritual leaders. I beleive in him because I also beleive in his message. Love does more good than hate.

All hate does is start wars and causes people to be harmed and or hurt. This is not the world I want to hang out in...and dont know of many that do.....yet the only way to change it is to start within.....that was Jesus message as well.

Hate Religion, power, money, greed and so on....but do not hate people in general who preach and live by the "Golden Rule".

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
I think it's more likely the case that Christians come to ATS and find, possibly for the first time, people willing to challenge their theology. This is often incorrectly misinterpreted as "hate".

I wouldn't mind people challenging my theology if they knew the first thing about it. I remember having quite interesting discussions on reddit about things like the nature of morality, the logical implications of certain teachings, and theological discussions about specific passages of the Bible, but that was before the reddit hivemind became so strong that it is virtually impossible to hold a conversation without having to endure an endless stream of offenses and strawmen arguments, regardless of your position.

Truth is, what atheists usually do is not "challenge my theology." You can't really challenge anything if your "argument" has already been proposed some hundreds of years ago, and has already been answered. The atheists I discuss with seem to have the strange idea that, despite the fact that they receive the exact same answer to their arguments every time they use it (their words, not mine), their arguments are new and revolutionary.

Originally posted by MamaJ
No offense to you.....I am not surprised of your short undetailed answers. There is no logic IMO for to hate a man that spoke of love is not and has nothing to do with a Religion. Man has made religion. Jesus taled the talk and walked it to.

Where have you seen me display hate for Jesus?
Disbelief does not in any way equal hate.

Originally posted by Leahn
I wouldn't mind people challenging my theology if they knew the first thing about it. I remember having quite interesting discussions on reddit about things like the nature of morality, the logical implications of certain teachings, and theological discussions about specific passages of the Bible, but that was before the reddit hivemind became so strong that it is virtually impossible to hold a conversation without having to endure an endless stream of offenses and strawmen arguments, regardless of your position.

On the web, having a discussion involving any difference of opinion of beliefs is usually volatile. You know this. I'd be delighted to offer you polite discourse should you ever wish to discuss such things.

Truth is, what atheists usually do is not "challenge my theology." You can't really challenge anything if your "argument" has already been proposed some hundreds of years ago, and has already been answered. The atheists I discuss with seem to have the strange idea that, despite the fact that they receive the exact same answer to their arguments every time they use it (their words, not mine), their arguments are new and revolutionary.

I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about here.

But still, I really don't see this vast number of Jesus haters on this site. There are a number that criticize religion, myself included, but I can't say I've known of any of them to literally hate Jesus.

Originally posted by MamaJ

Ok....fair enough....but that is what this thread is about and if I am not mistaken no one has mentioned why they do not take to Him nor His teachings.

I have no reason to accept his claims of divinity. I also don't believe in sacrifices, particularly human sacrifices, nor in the gods that require them.

Jesus' teachings contain good advice, some contain bad advice. Some of his "knowledge" was seriously incorrect.

I hear a lot of Christianity but he didn't create the Religion.....he was all about love.

Love was a common theme for him but whether he "was all about love" is debatable.

Most importantly, please recognize that one's disbelief is not an indicator of "hate".

Originally posted by junior2991
Because the foundation on which Jesus Christ lies is the catholic and christian churches, which have been proven to be obstacles in mankind development and also responsible of millions of deaths since its beginnings.

I think you got it upside down. Are you seriously claiming that the "foundation of Jesus Christ" is the Catholic Church, and not the other way around? Because the Catholic Church really only appeared some centuries after Christ.

The Church has never been an obstacle in mankind's development. This is a myth. If anything, mankind owe most of its development to the Church. Know you that, before the industrial revolution, virtually all scientific development was sponsored by the Church. There was no economic incentive to pursue science, and it was considered a spiritual calling, restricted to priests and dilletant aristocrats. Moreso, also education was under the responsibility of the Church, since there was no economical incentive to educate the masses. Pick any scientist responsible for a revolutionary discovered that lived before Mendel, inclusive. He was a priest, or he was working for the Church, comissioned.

The Church has never been responsible for "millions of deaths." Even the most bloodthirsty moment of the Catholic Church, that is, the Inquisition, only killed around 1200 people in hundreds of years. All of them were trialed. All of them were found guilty. All of it is documented. Comparatively, the atheist French Reign of Terror killed around 10000, in less than an year.

Therefore, if such a being exists it wouldn't allow its main followers and the people that represent and spread the BS, murder people and be extremely rich for thousands of years. I don't think that your GOD has a right not to be ridicule. I don't see he's glory and justice anywhere do you?

I am sure that you have your own reasons to believe that God shouldn't allow those things to happen. I'd like, however, to know what basis you have to say that He wouldn't. Do you know God so personally that you can claim with absolute certainty how He would or would not act?

And all the man made "GODS" should show up and try to do something about what is unfolding in this world if they exists. which sadly for you, hallucinating people will never happen.

Oh, don't worry. He will. Everything seems to be going according to the plan, unfold on the Bible.

If religion didn't exist the world will be a much better place. Imagine all the time being wasted worshiping GODS..

History proves you otherwise. Notably is the quote of the atheist historian Will Durant: "There is no significant example in history, before our time, of a society successfully maintaining moral life without the aid of religion."

For instance, Galileo said that the earth wasn't flat but the church killed him because he didn't want to take his words back. and then many years after the church proclaimed that the earth was indeed round in shape. how funny!

I am appalled. Is that what passes for knowledge of history today? There was never a moment in time where people believed that the Earth was flat. Considerations that the Earth was a sphere are as old as Ancient Egypt. Galileo never made any claims that the Earth wasn't flat. Galileo proved that the Ptolemaic model of Earth as the center of the Universe was wrong. He proved such by using the observed positions of Venus and Mars on the sky and comparing them to the Ptolemaic predictions. Then he proposed another model of the Sun as the center of the Universe, which was still wrong, but at least matched the observations.

And then he wrote a quite offensive book called "Dialogues" on which he very much offended the Pope (who at that moment in time was also the king) and got arrested by it and ordered to stop talking about his ideas until they could be independently verified, under penalty of prison, and he agreed to it. And they were independently verified and the result was that, although his ideas were promising and deserved further considerations, there wasn't enough proof to warrant them as correct yet.

And then Galileo got somewhat upset that his cherished ideas weren't promptly accepted and went on to teach them as truth on the College he lectured on, breaking a direct order from the king himself to not to do it, and for that he was house arrested and his books were banned and further research on the topic was banned. Point is, if Galileo himself admitted that he didn't have proof of his ideas. He wasn't, however, killed (that was Copernicus).

I do not believe that Jesus Christ ever existed. I believe that he is completely fictional and made up.
A myth.
It is very difficult to hate something that does not exist. It is like hating a ghost, or hating Zeus, or hating Thor. Jesus is not real and never was real and therefore it is impossible to hate something that isn't there.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
For one, it devolved into minutia. Secondly, after learning your beliefs and your explanations for them it seemed that productive conversation might be difficult.

Since you do not seem to refrain from discussing minutia with other people, what exactly is the problem? What do you define as a "productive conversation" ?

Yes, but the poster cited their passion for their beliefs as the evidence that the beliefs must be true.

Yes, and I agree that it is a very weak, although not completely incorrect argument. They certainly believed it to be true, and no one alive seemed to dispute the idea that was true, despite many of them having been alive at the same time as Christ. What do you make of this?

Originally posted by dalan.
Its hated because of its stupidity.

After witnessing first hand the utter lack of intelligence of Christians, I cannot stand the religion, or Christians themselves.

The religion is not stupid. People are stupid. Most people are, in fact, stupid. And most people, including the great majority of atheists that talk big about their knowledge of religion, don't know the first thing about the religion themselves, and will believe whatever their priests tell them that is true, without verifying it first.

The only reason why they worship God, is to make sure they don't go to hell.

No, I don't think so. Many denominations of Christianity don't even believe in hell. What excuse do you have for them?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Why would the apostles, upon finding out Jesus was just some dude, continue to preach the Word of God and suffer persecution and DEATH, for a lie?

Because they were mistaken and didn't recognize it as a lie.

Why would otherwise sensible people in Heaven's Gate kill themselves to get a ride on a comet? They were tragically mistaken but still willing to put their lives on the line for their beliefs. Does their passion for their beliefs automatically make those beliefs true?

no but it is good evidence and is also logical. getting hanged, crucified, stoned, beheaded, etc. is far worse than drinking cyanide koolaid. Jesus' apostles were smart, able men who left their posts in society to follow him to the death, every last one.

a lot of atheists i've met never seem to think their belief system through.. or actually better yet, think them through too much, to the point where they think they know it all, because their beliefs are based on 'facts'

actually so called 'facts' are disproven and/or updated by science every day

people must believe in something, whether it be this or that, but remember it's what we believe in that defines us as individuals, and i think Jesus Christ is an excellent role model, especially in the world we live in today

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
On the web, having a discussion involving any difference of opinion of beliefs is usually volatile. You know this. I'd be delighted to offer you polite discourse should you ever wish to discuss such things.

Sure. Pick a topic, open a thread, point me to it.

Truth is, what atheists usually do is not "challenge my theology." You can't really challenge anything if your "argument" has already been proposed some hundreds of years ago, and has already been answered. The atheists I discuss with seem to have the strange idea that, despite the fact that they receive the exact same answer to their arguments every time they use it (their words, not mine), their arguments are new and revolutionary.

I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about here.

But still, I really don't see this vast number of Jesus haters on this site. There are a number that criticize religion, myself included, but I can't say I've known of any of them to literally hate Jesus.

While there is certainly no shortage of atheists on this thread giving their own personal reasons for their self-proclaimed hate for Christianity and Jesus, I agree with you. They're not a vast number. They're only a vocal minority restricted to a handful of people that post often. The idea that there is a vast number of them is the result of a phenomena called confirmation bias. Seeing as humans are inherently biased, and confirmation bias is usually one of the strongest ones, please do not faulty people for being human.

Since you did not understand what I am talking about in the previous paragraph, I will be more explicit. On another thread, I discussed with another member (maybe it was you but I don't remember) how the quality of the arguments found on the books usually advanced by atheists as "sure-fire defeaters" (The God's Delusion, Letter to a Christian Nation, etc) are not really anything new, and most of the arguments raised by them have already been answered many centuries ago. They do not go past the most basic level of knowledge of theology.

Originally posted by MamaJ
This is the reason why I believe Jesus said....BELIEVE in me! I could be worng.....but what if im not.

Jim Jones also said "believe in me!".

To me, I have no reason to accept such imperatives. Nor do I have sufficient reason to believe in the existence of deities or the alleged divinity of their representatives. Should that reason present itself one day then my opinions could change.