Also those who sailed in the convoys to Murmansk during WWII was very brave.
You won't survive for long in the freezing waters north of Norway.



[edit on 2006/4/23 by Hellmutt]

Two words: Jervis Bay

This has been a good thread. If nothing else, it has given us reason to consider the price of the freedoms we enjoy and how many times ordinary men have risen to the occasion to do extraordinary things. In real life, there are no "super-heroes." There are only ordinary men who through commitment and will have risen above what had previously been only dreamed of.

Let us not forget Iwo Jima, where "uncommon valor was a common virtue."

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
This has been a good thread. If nothing else, it has given us reason to consider the price of the freedoms we enjoy and how many times ordinary men have risen to the occasion to do extraordinary things. In real life, there are no "super-heroes." There are only ordinary men who through commitment and will have risen above what had previously been only dreamed of.

Let us not forget Iwo Jima, where "uncommon valor was a common virtue."

Well said, Grady...

Iīve been trying to find a good link telling the story of "Operation Source". When minisubs were used for planting explosives on the Tirpitz while she was "parked" in a narrow fjord in Norway. But it seems like itīs hard to find. Only books for sale or very few details.
The essence of this story was that they planted explosives under the Tirpitz. They were captured. And when they were on board the Tirpitz they were patiently counting the seconds until it exploded. A young SS-type german officer slapped one of them in the face after the explosion, when the TirpitzīCaptain pushed him away. The Captain then saluted the surviving crew from the minisubs and told them he thought it was a very brave action. Tirpitz survived this attack but was put out of action for 7 months.

[edit on 2004/10/1 by Hellmutt]

Thought I'd add a few details I learned recently:

1. My bad about the Marines making the first raid on British soil since 1066. In the second Anglo-Dutch war, the Dutch raided the Medway and destroyed a good portion of the British fleet which had been laid up, then towed the HMS Royal Charles back home with them. They also could have destroyed one of the largest British industrial centers there if they had been in the mood to prosecute the war further- but they had the French to deal with too.
The moral of the story is that Marines have a propaganda machine almost rival to Stalin's, so sometimes you have to be sure their version of history is right before you cite it.

2. Thermopylae was the subject of that virtual battlefield show on History Channel tonight. Great show, you can't make a story like that up- nobody would believe you if you made a movie about it.
First of all, there were hundreds of thousands of Persians. The Persians had 10,000 of their elite immortals alone who were driven off by the Spartans on the second day.

The way the Persians had to win, and the results of the Spartan stand are even more remarkable.
1. The Spartans would have lasted at least another day, perhaps until thirst and exhaustion wore them down, if a Greek traitor had not helped Xerxes' men flank them.
2. The out-flanked Spartans sent home all of the Greeks- the majority of their force, and proceeded to again beat the snot out of the Persians until Xerxes pulled his troops back and resorted to the cowardly (but effective) tactic of showering the Spartans with arrows
3. The 3 day stand allowed the Greeks to escape and fascilitated the continued Greek resistance. Within a year the Greeks managed a decisive naval victory over Persia.

Vagabond writes:

The moral of the story is that Marines have a propaganda machine almost rival to Stalin's, so sometimes you have to be sure their version of history is right before you cite it.

That's a reckless and unfounded statment. The site you quoted is not an official Marine Corps site and therefore, it is not ethical to hold the Marine Corps responsible for the error of that site. I am unfamiliar with this action so I will not comment on its veracity. However, comparing the United States Marine Corps to Stalin in anyway is without merit and extremely offensive.

The reputation of the Marine Corps is based upon its history of defending freedom all over the world since its beginnings at Tunn Tavern in Philadelphia in 1775. This reputation is enhanced by the millions of former Marines who contribute to their communities and uphold the traditions of the Corps. This is hardly a propaganda machine.

For a better appreciation of the United State Marine Corps, may I recommend the book First to Fight by retired Marine General Victor Krulak, whose son, General Charles Krulak, became Commandant of the Marine Corps. It is the finest book ever written about the little things that have made the Marine Corps so special and have made the Corps indispensible to national security even in the face of numerous attempts to retire it to the ash heap of American history.

You owe the Corps, the nation, and those who have served in this hallowed institution and apology.

[edit on 04/8/14 by GradyPhilpott]

[edit on 04/8/14 by GradyPhilpott]

Woah! Ok guys lets not turn a good thread into a fight ok? Im sure that nothing meant by that statement, im sure it was an off the cuff remark. I served with the British Army for 5 years and if i took offence to everyone who bad mouthed my regiment id be for ever having fist fights . The US MArines are one of the worlds premier fighting forces of that there is no doubt, their record in the Pacific alone is enough to justify that. Im sure that an appology to the Corps will be enough then we can get on with adding to a great thread.

Corporal Thomas Hunter of the royal marines 43 comando.

Corporal Hunter, who was in charge of a Bren gun section, offered himself as a target to save his troop. Seizing the Bren gun he charged alone across 200 yards of open ground under most intense fire towards a group of houses where three Spandau machine-guns were lodged. So determined was his charge that the enemy were demoralized and six of the gunners surrendered, the remainder fled. He cleared the house, changing magazines as he ran and continued to draw the enemy fire until most of the troop had reached cover and he was killed, firing accurately to the last.
or major muir of the argyll's
On 23 September 1950 near Songju, Korea, there was difficulty in evacuating the wounded after a position had been captured, until Major Muir arrived with a stretcher party. When the enemy started to launch a series of attacks on the positions, the major took over command and after a direct hit from a fire bomb, causing further casualties, he led a counter-attack and the crest of the position was regained. He was determined to hold it until all the wounded had been evacuated and moved about his small force shouting encouragement and firing a 2-in. mortar himself until he was mortally wounded.
also i might want to point out it was an american fire bomb but the argyll's dont hold a grudge.

Originally posted by Hellmutt
In these war-times...
There have been a lot of heroic acts commited on the battlefields in history.
Do you have any bids on a "Most Heroic Action On The Battlefield" award?


Here is my bid:
The Captain on The HMS Glowworm on April 8th 1940
Lieutenant Commander Gerard Broadmead Roope

"On 8th April 1940 The British destroyer HMS Glowworm, alone and outgunned took on the German Heavy Cruiser Admiral Von Hipper and her destroyer escorts. In spite of the heavy odds against her she managed to score hits on her mighty opponent and in a last act of defiance she rammed the Cruiser before she sank. Out of a total crew of 149, only 31 survived. The Germans congratulated the survivors on a good fight and treated them as equals. Captain Heye told the survivors that their Captain was a very brave man. Later Heye sent a message through the International Red cross, recommending Lt Cdr Roope for the Victoria Cross. The only time in British History that the VC was recommended by the enemy."

If the Captain recieved a VC, then everyone of his crew who were lost should of as well. It can be very easy to be brave when you're putting other peoples lives on the line. I wonder if it were possible to speak with any of the 108 souls who were lost. Would they call the Captain brave. An individual act of bravery to save lives in my opinion is far more heroic; and there have been many and the bravest will probably never be known.

Originally posted by mad scientist

If the Captain recieved a VC, then everyone of his crew who were lost should of as well. It can be very easy to be brave when you're putting other peoples lives on the line.

I can't be certain, but I think you have never held command. I could see your point, if the Captain had conveniently taken a boat to safety while his crew rammed the other vessel.

I don't know anything about the criteria for the Victoria Cross, but that Captain was very brave, indeed. Perhaps, it could be argued that the entire crew deserved medals for valor, but that is not usually how medals for valor are awarded. Personally, I couldn't fault this Captain in any way.

But perhaps, he was not awarded the Victoria Cross because there were those in his command who saw it as you do.

Originally posted by mad scientist
... and there have been many and the bravest will probably never be known.

That is so true...

But we can still exchange some good stories, canīt we?

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by mad scientist

If the Captain recieved a VC, then everyone of his crew who were lost should of as well. It can be very easy to be brave when you're putting other peoples lives on the line.

I can't be certain, but I think you have never held command. I could see your point, if the Captain had conveniently taken a boat to safety while his crew rammed the other vessel.

I don't know anything about the criteria for the Victoria Cross, but that Captain was very brave, indeed. Perhaps, it could be argued that the entire crew deserved medals for valor, but that is not usually how medals for valor are awarded. Personally, I couldn't fault this Captain in any way.

But perhaps, he was not awarded the Victoria Cross because there were those in his command who saw it as you do.

The Criteria for the Cross is very stringent, the act its self has to be Witnessed by 3 different people who must make written statements as to the validity of the Award. "It is ordained that the Cross shall only be awarded for most conspicuous bravery, or some daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy."

Also i found that the Award has been made to 5 American Soldiers, from the first War. They all deserve metion so i picked one at random.

On 30 October 1917 at Passchendaele, Belgium, Sergeant Mullin single-handed captured a pill-box which had withstood heavy bombardment and was causing heavy casualties and holding up the attack. He rushed the snipers' post in front, destroyed the garrison with bombs, shot two gunners and then compelled the remaining 10 men to surrender. All the time rapid fire was directed on him and his clothes were riddled with bullets, but he never faltered in his purpose and he not only helped to save the situation but indirectly saved many lives.

Sergeant Mullin was an American serving with the Canadian Army, also the Unknown Soldier at Arlington has the victoria Cross as a mark of gratitude and respect for the men from America who gave their lives in the Great War, i believe as well that the Unknow Soldier in London bears the Congressional Medal of Honour for the same reasons.

Thermopylae is a good choice.

Because the Persian threat took place during a religious holiday the full army could not be sent.Volunteers were called for and only those with heirs were chosen (interesting departure from present day draft procedure where those without children are the first to be called up)

I'd also put in a word for Rourke's Drift

If statistics could decide which was the most heroic battlefield action then the record number of Victoria Cross's [11] (notoriously hard to win) at Rourke's Drift would put it at the top of the list.

[edit on 15-8-2004 by John bull 1]

Speaking of VC's, as far as I know only one person has been awarded a VC twice.

Between 22 and 30 May 1941 in Crete, Greece, Second Lieutenant Upham displayed outstanding leadership and courage in the very close-quarter fighting. He was blown up by one mortar shell and badly wounded by another. He was also wounded in the foot, but in spite of his wounds and a severe attack of dysentery, he refused to go to hospital. He carried a wounded man back to safety when his company was forced to retire on 22 May and on 30 May he beat off an attack at Sphakia, 22 Germans falling to his short-range fire.
BAR: On 14/15 July 1942 at El Ruweisat Ridge, Western Desert, Captain Upham, in spite of being twice wounded, insisted on remaining with his men. Just before dawn he led his company in a determined attack, capturing the objective after fierce fighting; he himself destroyed a German tank and several guns and vehicles with hand grenades. Although his arm had been broken by a machine-gun bullet, he continued to dominate the situation and when at last, weak from loss of blood, he had his wounds dressed, he immediately returned to his men, remaining with them until he was again severely wounded and unable to move.

I stand corrected there were 2 other recipients :

• Arthur MARTIN-LEAKE,
  
• Noel CHAVASSE
  
  [edit on 15-8-2004 by mad scientist]