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And the truth shall set you free!

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posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 08:25 PM
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The infestation from within!
I have tried to express my views but they were found inappropriate to the subject, I have been censored and I am still not sure as to why.
Now before some ignorant fool comes and try to tell me that censorship is not saying your opposite meaning, NO that is not what I am saying I KNOW what censorship is so dont even try it!
Before this post is LOCKED for not having a subject I would like to point out exactly what the subject is.

1st: This thread is about MASONS influence on the FREE SPEECH and the influence of the MASONS on this SITE (ATS).
2nd: It is about the corruption that runs deep in the subconscious mind of some of the moderators in this so called FREE SPEECH forum on SECRET SOCIETIES.
3rd: This is an ANTI MASON thread, I thought I could have a descent talk with a MASON I still hope but it has yet to be proven.

Now ALEX KENNEDY you have already shown you true stature I see your horns and you long tail dont even try your brainwashing atrocity on me. (Is lulanich las lanuanis dee deee dee dee deee jimaaa is lulanich las lanuanis ado wa I hii ahadii juu ahadhaaa)

To the nice and clever MODERATORS before you assault this thread with This has all been written before etc. you should try to be reasonable I do have something to say and it is not something that has been discussed recently there are ca. 300+ threads in here discussing the same stuff what is it I say that you are so afraid of. Why is it my threads are being locked 1 hour inside its discussion, I never had a chance to write what I really wanted because I had to defend my self from MODERATORS and MASONS alike.

I think something gets lost in translation, maybe I sound hostile when I write, and I would like to clear out that in no way should any thing I write be considered hostile. Nor should anything I write be judged as flaming trolling mucking assaulting degrading or any other foul word you can come up with to try to censor this thread.
AGAIN NOTHING I WRITE HERE IS ANYTHING NEAR A PHYSICAL THREAT OF THE FREE MASONS!
BTW. I come from a country were perhaps we have a better acceptance of what you can say to other people all that I write would never be found assaulting or flammable in my country perhaps you should just accept that around the world we dont speak in the same manner.

Now I can get on with the subject, am I the only one in here that gets the feeling that you cant talk about whats on your mind when the subject is MASONS?
When you try to make a point there is a MASON trying to dissect your every word youre every spelling error or typing error and claims that you are ignorant because you had butterfingers or in fact are typing in a language not native to you.
It would be easy for us to just pack our bags and leave, but then it would bee a victory for them.
I have some not so nice meanings about the MASONS, but I cant express them in here so please dont ask about that because then the thread will be closed.
Why is it not allowed to speak your mind when you feel like it, why should some volunteer decide that you cannot say bad or negative things on MASONS but you can write page after page about how good the MASONS are or how long they have served USA who has such a long history?
This is in fact a SECRET SOCIETY forum where the FREE MASONS are listed as one of the subject you can discuss, I have tried arguing pleading even begging for a chance to say whats on my mind but nothing has worked. Maybe I should just ignore them and keep on posting; it is just annoying that I should have to start a new thread when ever I would like to post on something I have already started a thread on.
What should I do to get an ADMINISTRATOR to approve of the things I write before some sweet and clever MODERATOR decides to edit my post.
I am a moderator myself and I know what power they have (i.e. Deleting post banning people remove subjects add subjects and so on depending on the forum and admin off course.)
I also think if it is a bad or not so objective moderator it can really hurt a site, there should be room for difference.
If I havent made my point yet I would like to point it out to you, I would like to write with fellow folks about subjects we find interesting, off course in the related topics with out being LOCKED DOWN by MODERATORS when we are in fact having a discussion with relevance

Baron Bilbo Baggins
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone

"It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and
a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square
is in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be moulded
until they clothe ideas in disguise."




posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 08:34 PM
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Here here, I vote to keep the thread alive. After all it is not free speach if someone doesn't have it.

But anyway, masons believe that you cannot talk bad about them unless you are yourself a mason. But, as you have alluded, I do not wish to join the masons and become brainwashed. I am spiritually inclined and wonder at these "initiation rituals." There are most likely many subconscious signs used to induce hypnosis. If you say there aren't, I ask you how aware you over the great number of subliminals crossing your path everyday.

As well, I am not so naive to think that I can use my will to overcome brainwashing. I don't know the masonic ritual in-depth nor those in charge at my local chapter. Just follow me, I know what you want to say.

Call me paranoid if you must, but I remain skeptical of people who must band together. After all, what is stopping you from doing good on your own? And also, I hear a lot of vague terms about doing good, but nothing about what you actually do or have done.

And as well, I don't think masons should be so naive to think that their group is not susceptible to corruption, infiltration of a devious kind.

You say you trust your leaders, I say you're gullible. But who really knows in the end? Maybe you are absolutely good, but maybe there is a dark side, how do you know in the end Masons? I am not trying to say I do, but that I am merely skeptical of the masons in general.

[edit on 11-8-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 08:43 PM
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Several Masonic Principles Are:
Faith must be the center of our lives.
All men and women are the children of God.
No one has the right to tell another person what he or she must think or believe.
Each person has a responsibility to be a good citizen, obeying the law.
It is important to work to make the world a better place for all.
Honor and integrity are keys to a meaningful life.


What's so evil about this? I would like to know what the deal with masons is anyway? Guess I'm brainwashed, huh?



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by NeonHelmet
When you try to make a point there is a MASON trying to dissect your every word you?re every spelling error or typing error and claims that you are ignorant because you had butterfingers or in fact are typing in a language not native to you.



Your problem is that you don't like people disagreeing with you. You're one of those who thinks that just because you spend the time to write something, it's correct and can't be argued with.

Well, sorry pal. When you write lies you have to expect to be corrected. That's what's happened to you. The fact that you've reacted like a petulant child with repeated threads claiming "free speech" and dirty play by the moderators just goes to show the hypocrisy in your argument. Take a look at the quote above. We've exercised our free speech in return and shown you to be rather silly so you complain. Well bud, it cuts both ways. This might be a Secret Society forum but if you post lies, you have to expect to be cut down. Ever heard the saying "If you can't stand the heat....?"

Now, if you want to post something that we can discuss rather than the terribly inane and boring "Masons are Satanists" posts (which quite frankly have been done to death and consigned to the garbage bin) you're quite welcome. But do expect to be argued with if you post things that are simply untrue. Acting like a spoilt child, as you have above and in previous threads, is going to get you nowhere.

Personally, I believe in free-speech too. But what does upset me is when people like you resort to abuse to back up a failed argument and complain that those you spread lies about should refrain from exercising the same right you claim for yourself. It smacks of hypocrisy. You have to expect a few pithy comments in return when you insult people by calling them names and insinuating that they are evil when clearly they are not. You also have to expect people to stand by their viewpoint and if you don't like the answers that you are getting back - tough.

But for all that, it does seem that this thread is exactly the same as the ones that got locked. It rehashes old ground and you're just making a lot of noise about nothing. You may have a lot to get off your chest but you've posted nothing of substance. Your claim that we should tolerate you because of your poor understanding of English is rather irrelevant too. ATS is an English speaking board. Most of the posters here are English speakers and if you use our language in an inflammatory way, then you must again expect a less than warm reception. You wouldn't greet me too well if I stopped you in the street in your native land and called you an asshole whilst using the excuse that my command of your language is weak, would you?

As for brainwashing you? Seriously. Do you think we would bother taking on what is clearly so small a task?



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 09:06 PM
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Originally posted by NeonHelmet
The infestation from within!
I have tried to express my views but they were found inappropriate to the subject, I have been censored and I am still not sure as to why.


perhaps you should listen to people when they explain to you, repeatedly, why:

Zeddicuszulzorander [hint hint, he is a -moderator-]
...you obviously didn't get the point even though I have been stating it over and over. Yes, I will make the call because after an entire page...all you have done is rant about being censored and be upset at other members. This has NOTHING to do with secret societies so I am locking this thread.


So to repeat, you posted in a forum where all threads are required to be about secret societies. You decided to start a thread about -censorship-, -not- secret socieites.

infact, when the subject started to involve secret societies, you said this:

neonhelmet:
Now take it easy all off you this is about FREE SPEECH not MASONS


Do -you- think a thread about FREE SPEECH (in capitals none the less eh? Just because its free doesn't mean you have to yell it), wherein you explicitly say you don't want to talk about secret socieites, belongs in the 'secret societies only' forum? Or will you just not answer that question instead?


Now before some ignorant fool


a guy who starts a non secret socieites thread in a secret societies only forum is calling other people ignorant fools?


comes and try to tell me that censorship is not saying your opposite meaning, NO that is not what I am saying I KNOW what censorship is so dont even try it!
Before this post is LOCKED for not having a subject


your previous -thread- was locked, not because it didn't have a subject, but because its subject had nothing to do with that forum. The whole reason for having forums is to organize the subject matter.


I would like to point out exactly what the subject is.

1st: This thread is about MASONS influence on the FREE SPEECH and the influence of the MASONS on this SITE (ATS).


you do realize you could've just started out by saying that?

So, what evidence do you have the free masons influence this site? Are you going to note that you weren't able to post in locked threads again? YOu do understand that not everyone can start a post in any thread right? I mean, its understandable, you only recently signed up, so why should you know that some threads, heck even entier forums, are more restricted than others?


neon helmet
Now ALEX KENNEDY you have already shown you true stature I see your horns and you long tail dont even try your brainwashing atrocity on me. (Is lulanich las lanuanis dee deee dee dee deee jimaaa is lulanich las lanuanis ado wa I hii ahadii juu ahadhaaa) [...] I would like to clear out that in no way should any thing I write be considered hostile


that last bit wasn't hostile? Maybe you shouldn't write stuff like that then. If you don't want to talk to 'alex kennedy', well, -talking- to him like you are is probably a bad way to go about it.


neon helmet:
am I the only one in here that gets the feeling that you cant talk about whats on your mind when the subject is MASONS?
When you try to make a point there is a MASON trying to dissect your every word youre every spelling error or typing error and claims that you are ignorant because you had butterfingers or in fact are typing in a language not native to you.

Really? In the secret society threads i have looked at, the majority of the masons don't concern themselves with grammatical errors and instead address the substance of the post. Isn't it more than just a little childish to whine about masons correcting people, 'dissect your every word', if they know you are incorrect?


neon helmet:
I would like to write with fellow folks about subjects we find interesting, off course in the related topics with out being LOCKED DOWN by MODERATORS when we are in fact having a discussion with relevance


Ok, discuss away. obviously this post made it thru. You are saying what exactly now, that the freemasons or the moderators are preventing you from posting? Ok, what were you tryng to post?



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by bobafett1972
Several Masonic Principles Are:
Faith must be the center of our lives.
All men and women are the children of God.
No one has the right to tell another person what he or she must think or believe.
Each person has a responsibility to be a good citizen, obeying the law.
It is important to work to make the world a better place for all.
Honor and integrity are keys to a meaningful life.

What's so evil about this? I would like to know what the deal with masons is anyway? Guess I'm brainwashed, huh?


That's my problem, I just here vague allusions. I mean, christians should THEORETICALLY be good, but does that mean all don't bomb abortion clinics.



Well, sorry pal. When you write lies you have to expect to be corrected. That's what's happened to you. The fact that you've reacted like a petulant child with repeated threads claiming "free speech" and dirty play by the moderators just goes to show the hypocrisy in your argument. Take a look at the quote above. We've exercised our free speech in return and shown you to be rather silly so you complain. Well bud, it cuts both ways. This might be a Secret Society forum but if you post lies, you have to expect to be cut down. Ever heard the saying "If you can't stand the heat....?"


Once again, you just say that this guy is wrong, ok....but why? I mean, defend the MASONs, tell me your experiences. Tell me of your conversations with the BIG GUY. Reveal to us the true MASONIC EXPERIENCE. Tell us some of the problems in masonry (you know there are, nothing is perfect). I mean, if we are so wrong, tell us what makes you so right.

Please stop with all these vague comments, and give us something solid to grasp.

Maybe we should call this thread, the life of a __degree mason. Or better yet, how about start a new one as such.

[edit on 11-8-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 09:16 PM
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I'm not a mason, I just wanted to know what the heck this dude was going on about. So angry, about what? He could just go somewhere else if he is not happy about the rules and all.



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 09:18 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Once again, you just say that this guy is wrong, ok....but why? I mean, defend the MASONs, tell me your experiences. Tell me of your conversations with the BIG GUY. Reveal to us the true MASONIC EXPERIENCE. Tell us some of the problems in masonry (you know there are, nothing is perfect). I mean, if we are so wrong, tell us what makes you so right.

Please stop with all these vague comments, and give us something solid to grasp.




Oh please. "Defend masonry?" Defend it from what? Vague accusations of Satanic worship that have no basis in fact? Me being vague!!!???
You've got some front. The accusation that Freemasonry is bad because it involves human beings is just about as vague as you can get.

"Tell us some of the problems of masonry"? Yes. Why don't I just invent an imaginary problem regarding my own Order. Whilst I'm doing that we can pretend that your mother or father is a shoplifter and a crack addict and then you can defend thier actions to me - it amounts to the same thing.

And why should I reveal a single thing to you? What do I owe you? What do you expect me to do? Start posts like "Freemasons don't kill puppies because...."? I think that you need a reality check. This is not how things operate in the real world.



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 09:26 PM
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Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Once again, you just say that this guy is wrong, ok....but why? I mean, defend the MASONs, tell me your experiences. Tell me of your conversations with the BIG GUY. Reveal to us the true MASONIC EXPERIENCE. Tell us some of the problems in masonry (you know there are, nothing is perfect). I mean, if we are so wrong, tell us what makes you so right.

Please stop with all these vague comments, and give us something solid to grasp.




Oh please. "Defend masonry?" Defend it from what? Vague accusations of Satanic worship that have no basis in fact? Me being vague!!!???
You've got some front. The accusation that Freemasonry is bad because it involves human beings is just about as vague as you can get.

"Tell us some of the problems of masonry"? Yes. Why don't I just invent an imaginary problem regarding my own Order. Whilst I'm doing that we can pretend that your mother or father is a shoplifter and a crack addict and then you can defend thier actions to me - it amounts to the same thing.

And why should I reveal a single thing to you? What do I owe you? What do you expect me to do? Start posts like "Freemasons don't kill puppies because...."? I think that you need a reality check. This is not how things operate in the real world.


Ok, well, obviously you are privy to the information that people compare Masons to Satanists. Like I said earlier, I don't know either way. Masons are a big part of people's lives, so I'd like someone to explain what Masons actually do.

I say the vague term satanic reference because I think among ATS its pretty well known what the specifics are.

As you can tell, I am not a Mason, so how would I know about the Masons?

You can complain all you want about people being ignorant, etc. but it doesnt help when you say,..."Well, why I should I tell you?" I mean what do you expect to happen. You think I'm suddenly going to know the intracasies of Masonry?

And I didn't say Freemasonry was bad because it involves human beings, I SAID I REMAIN SKEPTICAL OF ANYONE WHO MUST BAND TOGETHER TO DO GOOD. Like I said, why can't you do it on your own?

You can twist and spin my words all you want and then claim I have no right to know what Masons actually do. BUT SIR, YOU SHOULD NOT BE SURPRISED WHEN A THREAD LIKE THIS IS STARTED.


df1

posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 09:28 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
But anyway, masons believe that you cannot talk bad about them unless you are yourself a mason.

It seems to me that Masons object to having to address criticisms not based on facts.


I do not wish to join the masons and become brainwashed.

I do wish to become a Mason, but I do not believe that the Masons desire to brainwash me. My interest becoming a Mason is based on studying the beliefs and ideals of Masons and concluding that those beliefs and ideals correspond to my own. No brainwashing occurred for me to reach this conclusion.


I am spiritually inclined and wonder at these "initiation rituals." There are most likely many subconscious signs used to induce hypnosis. If you say there aren't, I ask you how aware you over the great number of subliminals crossing your path everyday.

You encounter subliminal messages via television and the internet everyday that are intended to manipulate your thoughts and actions. The entire advertising industry is based on getting you to respond to these subliminal messages. It seems like complaining about subminal advertising that is imposed on you without your knowledge would be more appropriate than complaining about the subliminal messages that may be contained in Masonic rituals. Men that choose to become Masons do so of their own free will, unlike advertising.

Subliminal messages are not all bad, hypnosis is used routinely to control smoking, diet and speech impediments. If the Masons did use subliminal messages to reinforce the desire in its members to do good would that be a bad thing?



Call me paranoid if you must, but I remain skeptical of people who must band together. After all, what is stopping you from doing good on your own? And also, I hear a lot of vague terms about doing good, but nothing about what you actually do or have done.

The Masons believe that doing good is an end in and of itself. It elevates the individual in mind, body and soul. It is a personal endevour with no necessity to prove it to anyone else and no desire to seek credit for doing good.


Maybe you are absolutely good, but maybe there is a dark side, how do you know in the end Masons?

Is their anything that we truely know absolutely? I try to follow my heart and do what I believe is right and good, somethings work out better than others. I challenge you to name one person or one group that is as pure as the driven snow.


I am merely skeptical of the masons in general.

I'm skeptical of everything in general. I have checked out the criticisms against Masonry and have not found any evidence to support the anti-Mason position.
.



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 09:32 PM
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Man, how much abuse will an ignorant fellow have to put up with?

Look, I know you where you all are coming from, but right now, all I am getting is criticism of my statements. Yes, df1, I do complain about that too.

Like I said, I'm skeptical and I just want to hear some solid stuff about what Masons do.

Uhh, Masons do good...I mean give me a break.

All the masons are so quick to jump a snap and start throwing out insults. I mean what are you hiding that you can't just tell me what you actually do?

Don't snap at me for questioning the world. Just answer my questions...



[edit on 11-8-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 09:33 PM
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Originally posted by NeonHelmet
Now ALEX KENNEDY you have already shown you true stature


What, 198.7 cm? *Rimshot*



I see your horns and you long tail dont even try your brainwashing atrocity on me.


Wooo-weee! I'm not just a Satanist anymore, I'm actually Satan! I'm glad my tail is long, and not short and stubby (that's some very obscure Quebecois humour I'm not sure I even get... I'm sure you follow my gist
).

"Brainwashing atrocity," eh? 'round about these parts, we call it "reasoned argument," or, sometimes "debate." I use both, actually. I should probably admit that I myself sometimes go over the top in my means of argument, but as exhibit A I'd like to present the fact that I've just been called a devil (apparently that's OK these days. *sigh*. Back in my day, calling someone a devil *meant* something. Now it's apparently just a pre-argument aperatif).



(Is lulanich las lanuanis dee deee dee dee deee jimaaa is lulanich las lanuanis ado wa I hii ahadii juu ahadhaaa)


Is this the language of your native land? I doubt it, of course, because I know of no language where you'd repeat that "dee deee dee dee dee" what have you. I'm interested to know what it actually is. If you're trying to exorcise me from behind your computer screen (I am, after all, apparently a devil), I'd suggest "The power of Christ compells you" as per the quite scary movie "The Exorcist." I saw that movie one hallowe'en at midnight with many friends of mine at the old Paramount theatre we used to have downtown in this city. I loved that theatre. Huge seats. And a monoplex! You don't see that much anymore. Anyway, it shut down. But that's a very happy memory for me. My friends Dan, Mannie, and I believe Beej were there, and we all had a good time. *sigh*... better days. Oops! OK, back to my "brainwashing atrocity."



I think something gets lost in translation, maybe I sound hostile when I write,


What, when you write things like "you're a demon, Alex Kennedy?" It's not true, by the way... I'm part Irish, and the Irish don't make good devils... we're always trying to make up clever poems rather than hurting people with ptichforks.



Nor should anything I write be judged as flaming trolling mucking assaulting degrading


Again, does that include calling me a devil? I guess the only way you could feel that calling me a devil is not "degrading" and "flaming" would be if you felt I actually am a devil. I'm unsure of what I did to make you feel that way, other than arguing succesfully against your anti-masonry.



Now I can get on with the subject, am I the only one in here that gets the feeling that you cant talk about whats on your mind when the subject is MASONS?


No, but that only means there are others as mistaken as you. Really now, if you weren't able to write what's on your mind about MASONS (apparently we're in a yelly mood), why would there be so many posts which include lies saying that we're Satanists, or baby killers, or sexual molesters, or the like?



When you try to make a point there is a MASON trying to dissect your every word


I admit I am dissecting your message. Once again, just for clarity, that's not censorship, that's just having an opposing view. Now, dissecting your message is free speech in the same way that your lies and insinuations about Masonry are free speech.



youre every spelling error or typing error


The word "you're" means "you are." You're looking for the word "your."

*RIMSHOT!*



and claims that you are ignorant because you had butterfingers or in fact are typing in a language not native to you.


Nope. You're ignorant (and only within a small field of knowledge) because you believe a number of pernicious lies about Freemasonry. Oh, and also because you think I'm a demon, apparently.



It would be easy for us to just pack our bags and leave, but then it would bee a victory for them.


Who is "them?" A bunch of giant ants?



Maybe I should just ignore them and keep on posting;


What, you mean take responsibility for your own actions and not try to blame others for your shortcomings? Naww, it would never work.

Seriously, though, if you have a problem with the Masons, I cordially invite you to please tell us about your evidence, and about the specific things you think we Masons do.



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 09:50 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
All the masons are so quick to jump a snap and start throwing out insults. I mean what are you hiding that you can't just tell me what you actually do?


Yes, but you're missing the fact that we've told you over and over what Masons do. You're just not happy with what you've heard.

Allright, just so you can't wriggle out of this one, I'll decribe what I, an average Mason (I assume) do in an average Masonic month (that is, not in July and August) in relation to Masonry.

First Sunday: Go to practice with the guys. Practice our ritual work for the upcoming month. Discuss any administrative work we need to do to keep the Lodge running smoothly. Often, I will be asked to help with someone's computer. I am always glad to do so, because I universially enjoy the company of my Brothers from Lodge (seriously. I can't think of anyone from Lodge I don't like).

First Wednesday: Business meeting of my regular Lodge. This is the administrative meeting, where we discuss Lodge business. We always try to have some educational material at our Lodge... papers on Masonry, philosophy, etc. After the meeting we have a meal. I almost always wind up discussing a little philosophy with my brethren, and I can assure you I NEVER have enough time... If I wanted to, I could hang around 'till 2 AM and still not talk myself out.

First Friday: Business meeting for Scottish Rite... either Rose Croix Chapter (where I'm an officer), Lodge of Perfection, or Consistory. Since I am an officer, I am expected to attend all three types. Since I am prelate in the Rose Croix, part of my job description includes presenting interesting philosophical / masonic talks relating to the Scottish Rite degrees. As you can imagine, I jump at the chance so to do.

Third Sunday: Practice for regular Lodge degree meeting. Practice for Royal Arch Chapter meeting. Again, ritual work, discussions. Breakfast and lunch with the respective groups of guys, if I'm lucky.

Third Wednesday: Degree meeting for my Regular Lodge. Our Lodge is considered one of the best, if not the best, in our Province for degree work, so I always do my utmost to do good ritual work. Meet with the guys as in Business meeting, but we usually have more visitors for a Degree Meeting. As Inner Guard, I consider it part of my duty to make visitors comfortable and get to know them. Lots of talk at meal, still not as much as I'd like.

Third Thursday: Royal Arch Chapter meeting. All Royal Arch Chapter meetings are degree meetings. We do both business and degree work, same night. I am Juniour Sojourner, roughly equivalent to the Inner Guard in the regular Lodge. I do much of the same here. Lots and lots of fun, lots and lots of interesting conversations, still never enough time.

There are also annual events : the giving of the Scottish Rite degrees, the Feast of the Paschal Lamb (Scottish Rite), The annual Taste of the Orient meal, the Kananaskis Masonic Spring Workshop (Regular Lodge), and all sorts of other fun activities, not to mention informal get-togethers and helping brethren with stuff as they need it and I can provide help.

But none of this touches what being a Mason actually is. What being a Mason actually is is too complex and ineffable for me to write here. Some faint idea can be gleaned from my Grand Lodge's list of Masonic principles:



Freemasonry is:

Kindness in the home -
honesty in business

Courtesy in society -
fairness in work

Resistance toward the wicked -
pity and concern for the unfortunate

Help for the weak -
trust in the strong

Forgiveness for the penitent -
and, above all,

Love for one another -
and reverence and love for God.

"Freemasonry is a way of life"


All I've written is a terribly inadequate description of being a Freemason, but perhaps it will help you and stop you from insinuating we are something evil. Perhaps.



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Ok, well, obviously you are privy to the information that people compare Masons to Satanists. Like I said earlier, I don't know either way. Masons are a big part of people's lives, so I'd like someone to explain what Masons actually do.


Um read the opening post (horns and tails) and then go read some more of ATS regarding the Satanist comment. As for what masons do? There's penty posted here on ATS and plenty posted elsewhere.
Here is as good a place as any to start with.

www.freemasoninfo.ca...



I say the vague term satanic reference because I think among ATS its pretty well known what the specifics are.


There haven't been any specifics. Never have been. Never will be. Accusations of Satanism amongst Freemasons aren't specific because the fact is that it doesn't exist. Antis rely on vague lies and deceit to promulgate this deception.


As you can tell, I am not a Mason, so how would I know about the Masons?


There's plenty on the net. You can read the anti stuff, but if you believe it you really need to check out why you believe it. Go to other sources. You'll invariably find that any slanderous accusation is wrong. You could even contact your local Lodge and ask to see somebody there.


You can complain all you want about people being ignorant, etc. but it doesnt help when you say,..."Well, why I should I tell you?" I mean what do you expect to happen. You think I'm suddenly going to know the intracasies of Masonry?


So if you don't know what you are talking about, what gives you the right to make accusations? You don't just walk into something, making bold accusations, without knowing a thing about it do you? Would you walk up to a particle physicist and tell him his science is false without knowing something about his subject?


And I didn't say Freemasonry was bad because it involves human beings, I SAID I REMAIN SKEPTICAL OF ANYONE WHO MUST BAND TOGETHER TO DO GOOD. Like I said, why can't you do it on your own?


That's basically human nature. I haven't twisted your words. You don't believe me? Do you have a family? Do you have friends? Do you do anything with other people? Play sports? Converse? Interact? You band together when you partake in 99% of social interaction with other human beings. That's what being a human is all about. As for getting together to do good? Don't many hands make light work? Can you build a house on your own?


You can twist and spin my words all you want and then claim I have no right to know what Masons actually do. BUT SIR, YOU SHOULD NOT BE SURPRISED WHEN A THREAD LIKE THIS IS STARTED.


Sadly, I'm not suprised when threads like this are started. They show an ignorance. As I've already stated to you, there is enough out there about Freemasonry for you to at least start finding out the truth. For a so-called Secret Society, Freemasonry has probably been the most written about organisation ever. At last count there were over 50,000 books on the subject. My statement was not that you have no right to know about freemasonry - rather it was, why should I go out of my way to inform you of something that you can easily find for yourself? I will defend against scurrilous accusations but really, why should I tell you anything else? Would you not be offended if I asked you all about your personal life? That's basically what you are asking me to do.

I don't twist and spin your words. I don't need to.



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 09:59 PM
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Yes, but you're missing the fact that we've told you over and over what Masons do. You're just not happy with what you've heard.

Allright, just so you can't wriggle out of this one, I'll decribe what I, an average Mason (I assume) do in an average Masonic month (that is, not in July and August) in relation to Masonry.


Actually, this is the first I've gotten in on the masonic threads. Just so things are straight, I'm not trying to wiggle out of anything.

In fact, I was being honest with you. I told you exactly how I felt about Masonry and didn't hold anything back. If I was insinuating something evil, than that is all in fact I knew about Masonry.

But, I thank you for answering my question. Though, that just brought an even greater host of questions, in addition to ones I've had you've given me my first somewhat clear picture of a Mason's life. I'm glad you weren't quick to just insult me. After all, I said I didn't know either way.

Since I am not going to be joining anytime soon, I well let the rest of my answers come with time unless we can talk more or you can point me to what you feel is an accurate depiction.

So, I've started another thread with my first question, having to deal with why someone chooses masonry in the first place, maybe you'd like to respond.


Sadly, I'm not suprised when threads like this are started. They show an ignorance. As I've already stated to you, there is enough out there about Freemasonry for you to at least start finding out the truth. For a so-called Secret Society, Freemasonry has probably been the most written about organisation ever. At last count there were over 50,000 books on the subject. My statement was not that you have no right to know about freemasonry - rather it was, why should I go out of my way to inform you of something that you can easily find for yourself? I will defend against scurrilous accusations but really, why should I tell you anything else? Would you not be offended if I asked you all about your personal life? That's basically what you are asking me to do.

I don't twist and spin your words. I don't need to.


*Sighs*

Do I go and make statements about what I feel even if I am not an expert? Yes, yes, I do in fact. Actually, I think I would never learn if I didn't do that. You see the great response I got from alex kennedy. That's all I was looking for.

I wouldn't be offended if you asked about my family, but it wouldn't be very interesting. It's not like there's a thread that says Secret Societies - Talk about Jamuhn's family here. I think you know there is a big difference.

And yes, you did twist and spin my words. You changed the words around in a sentence of mine to make me fit the image of what you want me to be. I know you want me to be another bad guy against masonry, but I'm not. I'm just being honest about what I've read.

Yes, I will take it upon myself to learn more, thanks for pointing me in a direction.

Alright, now its just pointless to say anymore.

[edit on 11-8-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Since I am not going to be joining anytime soon, I well let the rest of my answers come with time unless we can talk more or you can point me to what you feel is an accurate depiction.


Tell you what. If you come to me in a spirit of honesty and innocence, and if you cut off the damn insinuations about Masonry (*), then, in the words of Matthew 7:



[7] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
[8] For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


But please don't forget Matthew 7: 1-6:



[1] Judge not, that ye be not judged.
[2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
[3] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[4] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
[5] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
[6] Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.


(*) I'd suggest you take a little lesson from the masters of rationality, the Scots: If you don't have enough facts about a case to make a conclusion, the verdict must be "not proved," which means you don't cast aspersions on the character of the accused.



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Do I go and make statements about what I feel even if I am not an expert? Yes, yes, I do in fact. Actually, I think I would never learn if I didn't do that. You see the great response I got from alex kennedy. That's all I was looking for.


First of all, my name is "Alex Kennedy" (notice the capitals). You may call me "Mr. Kennedy" if you insist, and generally "Alex" is acceptable unless you're being rude (or "nasty," as Janet Jackson would have it). You may not call me "Kennedy" unless you went to school with me or have my explicit permission (I know you didn't do so, just telling you so you know).

Secondly, it was not your ignorant proclamations which caused me to write my explanation. My explanation was written in spite of your ignorant words, because I perceived in the mass of what you said what appeared to be an innocent and non-loaded question. As I said before, what I perceive as innocent and non-loaded questions, I will answer to the best of my ability. But if I feel you are asking because you are trying to make a "point" or because you want to lure me into some kind of rhetorical trap, I won't play.



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 10:23 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn

Do I go and make statements about what I feel even if I am not an expert? Yes, yes, I do in fact. Actually, I think I would never learn if I didn't do that.


I should be the one sighing.
You didn't make a statement. You made an accusation. Read your first post again.
The fact that you displayed "all you know about masonry" doesn't disguise ignorance. I'll give you ten out of ten for honest intent, but by repeating what are basically lies, you invite yourself to get shot down in flames.

Would you expect me to turn around and cast aspersions on your family just because somebody wrote something nasty about them in a local newspaper? Something that could easily be proven to be a lie? Of course you wouldn't. So why justify your actions here? And no, there's not a big difference - I look upon other Freemasons as family.
No, I didn't twist your words. The statement that masons band together is the same as saying that they are human - all human beings group together. We are a social animal. Seeking company and interacting with one another is our very essence.

I'm glad to hear that you aren't just another mason hater. To tell the truth, your first post does make you look like one though. Read it with neutral eyes and tell me that I was wrong to make that assumption. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept your claim that all you posted was an honest opinion that was a "little" slanted in it's outlook .
Finally, I certainly don't want you to be just another "bad guy against masonry". We don't go out of our way looking for enemies.



[edit on 11-8-2004 by Leveller]



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 10:32 PM
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Sorry, maybe I came off as making an accusation. But I thought I made it clear I didn't know either way. I thought I said they could be good or bad and I was merely skeptical, I've been dupped before you know, but thats a different time.

As you may have guessed, I have read David Icke.
And he got me thinking, that maybe the lower level masons don't know what goes on at the very top. When I made accusations, I wasn't addressing all of you personally, but questioning what goes on at the top. Just as I question Bush and Kerry.

But, aside from all that, I'm just trying to delve into the mind of the Mason and understand better. I know there's a lot to life in general I don't know, and I just wonder what exists beyond what I don't see. And yes, I know its not all evil and not all good, yet, I can't help but wonder.

[edit on 11-8-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Aug, 11 2004 @ 10:53 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
As you may have guessed, I have read David Icke.
And he got me thinking, that maybe the lower level masons don't know what goes on at the very top.


Well, there's your problem. Icke is quite incorrect in writing there is a "bottom" and a "top" to Masonry, as I adressed in a post on a different thread. Please don't base your opinions on Masonry on the ravings of an adulterous ex-soccer player who has never been a Mason.



And yes, I know its not all evil and not all good, yet, I can't help but wonder.


Well, I know this is going to break the truce we have with the loony anti-Masons, but I'll say it right out loud: There is no evil in Masonry. I don't mean there are no evil men... it is not for me to judge another's good or evil, but I'd be very surprised if any of the brethren I know could be described as "evil." But I will say that Masonry itself has no evil in it. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's my opinion as a Mason.



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