Word to the Wise!! I shot myself! Negligent discharges happen! (video)

This is a VERY legitimate and useful video for anyone who owns or is thinking of owning and operating a sidearm.

I actually have a serpa holster for a USP .40. Luckily the usp is a double action with full safety and decocker.

I rarely if ever concealed carry since discharging from service, but have never enjoyed the feeling of carrying a 1911-based .45. It is in-fact the secondary weapon I carried and relied on for nearly a decade of active combat. I've just never been a fan of my sidearm being carried in such a "hot" condition. Those kimbers are known for their hair triggers as well.

That being said, I could not help but die laughing when this gentlemen calmly and collectively placed his weapon on the ground and said "I, Just, F-ing, Shot myself..."

Good man.

Good post OP. I am learning from the other posters as well. There can never be too much dialog about gun safety issues - you do learn from others.

Originally posted by TheBirdisDone
Good post OP. I am learning from the other posters as well. There can never be too much dialog about gun safety issues - you do learn from others.

Brother, you are displaying the most critical component of firearms operation and ownership with this comment. If you do not currently own a sidearm and are thinking of it, your peers are the best source of information.

Learning the different "conditions" of weapons, the pros and cons of said firearms and their condition as well as learning from others' mistakes is the best thing you can do.

The 1911 and its variants are some of the most reliable and battle-proven sidearms known to man. The .45 ACP round is a top-notch round when it comes to human targets, but the fact that it is usually required to be in condition 1 (hammer back, safety off, round chambered) to be combat effective is a serious concern. I spent countless hours training with the weapon before I ever felt comfortable letting my main rifle go to sling and drawing the 1911. If you mess with the modified 1911's there is even more time and training required to be a competent operator. Most modified 1911's come with a custom trigger that you swear a fly could activate.

The SERPA style holsters employ a locking mechanism that locks onto the trigger guard of a sidearm, thus locking it in-place. With a hair trigger and in condition 1 it makes for one of the more dangerous draws as far as sidearms are concerned.

Originally posted by TheBirdisDone
I just took a pistol course Saturday. I over heard the instructors talking about a very experienced individual dying as a result of a glock/holster incident. It is believed that this holster had an inner strap that caught the trigger as he went to remove his pistol. I did not butt in to this conversation so I am sorry I don't know more details, such as the holster type.

The Glock design can be prone to all kinds of holster issues... Here is one that points out that even when the weapon operates as designed, something bad can happen:

The danger of a worn holster

I'll take the moment to point out that the above accident could not occur with my Springfield Armory XD-40 Sub-Compact. The grip safety, along with the loaded chamber indicator and striker status indicator which are tactile in nature and do not require time or a lighted environment to check. It's a superior design. SA has also eliminated pulling the trigger on their new XDM models as part of the take down procedure, which can prevent accidental discharges such as this:

U.S. Marshal shoots own hand

Any weapon safety design can be overcome by the operators carelessness or outright stupidity, but I still want the safest, most well thought out and effective design possible. Some weapons including the Glock are not designed with safety in mind first, but to be as easy and as inept proof as can be when an intended discharge is required by circumstance.

The feelings of any Glocks have not been injured in the making of this post, but there might be some pissed owners...

reply to post by ateuprto


Actually its sister. :-)
And I am an OIF Veteran too, thankfully with no shrapnel - but stories still . . .
Thanks for your service - brother! ;-)

ps. I am considering my first purchase: a Springfield Armory XD 9mm - the above posters comments about the Glock, which is actually my recent instructors first choice, leads me to believe it is not a starter weapon.
I like a 45, but the ammo is a bit more pricey and I want to become more proficiant.

One tip that may be way beyond most of you here but worthy to pass along to learners. My recent instructor, former Marine, and current Law Enforcement firearms instructor said this:
Load your weapon over and over, I want you to be able to load that revolver in the dark - so if you shoot 50 rounds load 50 times and know where your cylindar(sp) puts that round. If you fire an automatic load 3-5 rounds and constantly clear the chamber and deal with the magazine, really KNOW your weapon is clear. I think this is very good advice for those that shoot on a non-regular basis, which is - unfortunately probably the MAJORITY of gun owners.

I just took the NRA basic pistol class - it was excellent. Recommend!

reply to post by TheBirdisDone


Hah, sorry for the assumption SISTER! Glad to hear you got out of the sand without some metal souvenirs. Can't say I was as lucky, but as I'm sure you're well aware, have no room to complain as some gave all.

No thanks needed for my service, but it is much appreciated all the same. Thanks for YOUR service as well, what branch and MOS were you if you don't mind me asking. Maybe we crossed paths at some point, though most of my deployments were to the Stan.

Glad to see any individual taking such a rational and competent approach to firearms.

EDIT TO ADD

Saw your edit. While I've never felt quite comfortable with the XD's, they have an excellent reputation. I've also not invested the time necessary to become proficient and comfortable with the sidearm. An XD in 9mm sounds like an excellent choice. Safety and operational hazards rank high on the list of factors contributing to your decision. Comfort and feel rank almost equally as high. Sounds like you are approaching it in as sound a manner as possible. Try out as many sidearms as you can get your hands on. That's how I landed with my current favorite, the USP in .40 caliber. A close second would be the Sig P226 in .40 or 9mm. I generally stick to .40 as it is a good trade-off between ammo capacity, control and stopping power.

Also worthy of noting is AMMUNITION. The same gun can perform and react in vastly different ways depending on ammo choice. When going to public ranges, especially those indoors you can be limited by ammo choice sometimes. If you do get a chance, try out different grains and projectile types. For example, in my H&K USP .40 I use medium-high grain hollow points. It provides very reliable accuracy at reasonable ranges, extremely controllable kick and the hollow points help add some "muscle" to the in-between .40 caliber. I say in-between because the .40 is generally the perfect compromise between the shaky accuracy but high powered .45 and the tack-shooting but sometimes underpowered 9mm.

As many a operator will attest though, .45 might trump 9mm, but its hard to tell the difference with 2 in the torso and one in the head.

reply to post by ateuprto



I was in a classified location just a stones throw over the boarder during build up and start of OIF in 2003. I was the base engine manager for an A10 Squadron. BUT - during the war worked in the Command Post per the Commander running the survival recovery center. We were in a special forces push out location. We were not armed due to political sensativities - in a hostile location and came under fire from host country nationals - you will never hear this publically because it is still denied we were there. I was the only female in the command post when we came under attack one night - and the command controllers were armed due to their classified currier status and Commander Escort function. But not me. It was obscene really, as they loaded rounds - I wondered do I hide under a desk or run out the back of the Hardened Air Craft Shelter into the open desert? I did not enjoy that - I was out of my mind I was not armed - and pi$$ed off at my Government for caving to political pressure. I also woke one day (worked nights) with two male Host nationals in my tent - and no weapon and that was good because believe me they would be dead, luckily a strong wild American woman screaming "get the f out" moved them along. Not quite used to that from their ladies I guess. LOL

Due to these experiences I want to know and feel confident about gun use, in the dark, wake up startled, but functional. Since I have experienced the adrinaline rush - real time - of flight or fight - I pay careful attention to safety and being former military pay attention to what can be learned from mishaps. Really it was only repetitive training that kept my head cool over there. So now I will invest the time in repetitive training with a sidearm. I don't EVER want that unarmed feeling again. Thanks for your advice and recommendations!

reply to post by TheBirdisDone


Thanks for that. Funny part is that I am 90% sure I know EXACTLY the location of your assignment. No need to discuss it further, though there were a handful of posts very similar to the one you described. Weird thing is I was deployed to Iraq 3 times but spent less than 18 months in-country. The deployments were generally quick and to the point if you catch my drift.

Afghanistan was a different story, as those deployments could drag out into the 1-2 year range per deployment.

Your reasons for taking interest in firearm ownership and operational competency are more than noble and understandable. PLEASE feel free to ask as many questions as you like whether it be on this thread or through a PM. Sister be packin'!

Also as a sidenote, I added to/edited my response above if you care to re-read the end. Take care, look forward to our continuing discussion(s).

Also of note, the term FUBAR was generally frowned upon for whatever reason in all 3 of the units I was deployed with, but unfortunately your terrifying experience in that outpost was not all that uncommon, specifically in the early days of combat and pre-combat operations. DEFINITELY FUBAR amiga. As for the resolve of U.S. American service women...well, I've seen some HARD charging chicas send men running for the hills with their tales between their legs throughout my deployments. I guess the unfortunate chumps assumed we sent our sisters to culinary school before slapping a pair dog-tags and BDUs on them.

Just stumbled past this post and saw a few things I wanted to contribute....

First, regarding the OP - Ouch! I've been considering a Serpa holster for my handgun. From what I've read and from limited handling at the local shop, it seems like a solid design. Granted I don't have a lot of experience producing from a holster, but I found that the index release on the Serpa design allowed me to easily draw the weapon and my finger fell right alongside the action. Where I want it. In a stressful situation, I could see how excessive grip could force one to curl that finger, but... practice, practice, practice. It seems like muscle memory was to blame here - that is the brain muscle not remembering which weapon/holster combination was strapped on! I'm not sure this will dissuade me from picking up the Serpa as an open carry holster for the range or camping. Has to be better than the POS positive retention holster that came with the weapon.

That leads to point two. I own a Springfield XD-9 (full size) and am about to purchase the compact for training before I go to CC certification with it. I love this gun. The grip safety makes sure you have a proper and solid grip on the weapon, the visual and tactile chamber status indicators are great and overall the pistol has performed flawlessly through a myriad of commercial and custom loads at the engagement ranges for which I purchased it. For the poster above considering this handgun, I do recommend it.

Finally, not quite an ND situation, but since there were range stories being bantered about in this thread I thought I could share. A few weeks ago I was at the local outdoor having a day throwing lead downrange. After spending some time with the new optics on my AR, I switched over to the shotgun range. At the second cease fire a group of young men ponied up to the lane next to me. They had a cheap-ass brand new 12 gauge that they had picked up that morning. The oldest of the boys was 18, the other two were 17 and 16 respectively. They were having fun, and mostly following range rules, but I was keeping one eye on them for my safety and theirs. At one point as I was waiting for another reset (my target had been eviscerated. I love slugs.) I watched as the older boys left the youngest with the gun. He cycled five rounds into the weapon and then sighted his target and let four of them fly. After the fourth shot, he put the shotgun on the bench and stepped off the line, action closed. That's the first problem - this range requires actions open and flagged. Being the "nice" guy I am, I casually approached him and let him know that not only did he have a round in the chamber, that if the RSO saw the weapon left like that he'd be scolded or worse - asked to leave. The boy said the worst possible thing to me - "I think it's clear." Let's put the emphasis on the "think". That got to me. I informed him that he can't think, he has to KNOW that it's clear. So do the other shooters and the RSO. So I said "Humor me. Shoulder the weapon, sight your target and pull the trigger." The boom scared the batter right out of him. He really did think his weapon was empty. Of course, he quickly put it down, mumbled something about "thanks", and started to move away from the bench. The action was closed again. Here I hit him with - "So - are you confident now that the weapon is clear? Action's closed, you were wrong once, want to try again?" Turned out he didn't even how how to open the breach back up. Grrrr. I showed him how, dropped a flag into the chamber and suggested he go find his friends. Then I packed up and moved another 50 yards down the line to start obliterating body silhouettes with my XD-9. Everyone went home, it was a good day.

This video also highlights gun safety. Others have said Glocks can be dangerous, and this guy would agree.

Very embarrasing for this poor guy...

reply to post by Mirthful Me


It;s angle, angle, angle. Bullet went right through his thigh muscle and it's a good thing he's a hefty boy,
If that bullet had met his leg perpendicular it would have been a true horror story.

reply to post by Tripnman


Ditto on the XD-9 kudos. The service model is my primary weapon of choice nowadays. I really like it's simplicity and safety features compared to a couple of other more complex guns that I own (sigs). Sriker fired, No external safety, or decocker to worry about and DAO all the time, No hair trigger. Carry it hot and your carrying just like a uncocked double action revolver. People complain about the heavy trigger pull. But, that is what makes it safe to carry and to draw. Practice enough and you inherently know where the trigger breaks and resets.

Your range story is certainly alarming and yet familiar. I had a similar experience on the trap range a number of years ago. A new shooter with a brand new shotgun took his place on the line and first proceeded to fill his magazine with 4 rounds (big no no). He was soon corrected but had trouble figuring out how to unload the mag. tube. Not long after that he was corrected for walking around with a closed action. The guy made me nervous.

Situations like this just illustrate that you yourself can be a walking example of firearm safety while at the range but, it is always the other guy that you have to watch out for. You usually never know who is shooting right next to you.

Safety and familiarity with your weapon are the foundation for firearm ownership and reckless owners just make it more difficult for the rest of us. I love action dummy training for that very reason.

reply to post by NuclearPaul


Wow!! He never cleared the weapon. He picked it up action closed and hot from when he put it in his holster. He's lucky he didn't shoot a spectator. Not the fault of the glock. Just poor handling and overconfidence that lead to a Barney Fife moment. Drop the magazine, cycle the action multiple times, lock the action, visually inspect the chamber and feel for an empty chamber with your finger. Kind of like wearing multiple condoms.

reply to post by NuclearPaul


Yes! Yes! Yes!
They showed this to us in my recent pistol class!
This guy ended up suing the DEA for training negligence and won! My instructor was quite peeved about this, but I told him look at the bright side if this saves one cop from being killed due to mishap it was a good lesson learned even if the legality seems stupid. Of course the most amusing part of this is his announcement about being the only professional qualified to have the weapon, or something to that effect.

What this shows is even "professionals" can do stupid things. Please bring your brain and have it engaged at all times when handling your weapon! :-)

Originally posted by jibeho
reply to post by NuclearPaul

 

Wow!! He never cleared the weapon. He picked it up action closed and hot from when he put it in his holster. He's lucky he didn't shoot a spectator. Not the fault of the glock. Just poor handling and overconfidence that lead to a Barney Fife moment. Drop the magazine, cycle the action multiple times, lock the action, visually inspect the chamber and feel for an empty chamber with your finger. Kind of like wearing multiple condoms.

You said it, DROP THE MAGAZINE, Cycle the action MULTIPLE TIMES, visually inspect the chamber and for the first time I learned - feel with your finger.

I was told the cop in the video, cleared the chamber - then dropped the magazine - opps. Great thread. Thanks to all for additional user XD9mm opionions.

The class I recently took was taught by a PD fire arms instructor he had some stories that were a dozey. Can't be emphasized enough, practice, practice, practice and do it safe - and still bring a fully engaged brain. Never assume you KNOW - even the experienced have mishaps. Take the responsiblity personally - and a big thanks to those who "instruct" others on the range you make it safer for all of us. Unfortunately we got the choir in here!!! LOL We need more exposure on this topic. Love to see more threads on this subject.

Originally posted by TheBirdisDone
reply to post by NuclearPaul

 

Yes! Yes! Yes!
They showed this to us in my recent pistol class!
This guy ended up suing the DEA for training negligence and won! My instructor was quite peeved about this, but I told him look at the bright side if this saves one cop from being killed due to mishap it was a good lesson learned even if the legality seems stupid. Of course the most amusing part of this is his announcement about being the only professional qualified to have the weapon, or something to that effect.

What this shows is even "professionals" can do stupid things. Please bring your brain and have it engaged at all times when handling your weapon! :-)

edit on 7-7-2011 by TheBirdisDone because: (no reason given)

Mr. DEA actually sued and won. That is amazing to me when you consider all of the fundamental rules that he broke. Makes you wonder about the advanced training that this guy must have been through in order to get a badge. He's probably sitting back collecting a disability check nowadays.. What's wrong with our system when a guy who was speaking about gun safety makes a !@#$head error like this and then has the balls to sue because of bad training. Just hope he gave up any career that involves the use of a firearm.

X 4 on the XD series.

I own a full size in .45, and I love the damn thing. Good visual indicators for weapon status, heavy trigger pull, magazine capacity, reliability, accuracy, and it just fits so well in the hand.

To keep this (slightly) on topic - I still think the user in the OP had brain muscle memory failure. is there anyone else here that has pros or cons on the Serpa holsters? I am still considering purchasing one.

Now that others have chimed in on the stability of the SA XD platform, I want to put my nod in to those who have been sharing the importance of using action dummies (snap caps) for basic and safe firearm familiarity training. I got my first rifle a long time ago (I was 10) but am relatively new to handguns. When I picked up the first, I did get dummy rounds and spent weeks doing daily drills where I learned to load, unload and inspect the weapon over and over again until it became second nature. My wife thought I was crazy, but I certainly feel safer for it. I still use them to check function after cleaning and re-assembly and for those all important dry-fire drills where the family practices their individual roles in a home-invasion scenario. I love watching my wife cycle dummies through the Mossberg - easier than listening to her complain about the bruises after using live ammo at the range.

For reference purposes...

The main problem is that some folks and organizations are still clinging to archaic mechanical definitions of trigger types without taking into consideration biotechnology advancements and unique striker fired mechanisms in the firearms industry. In other words, you cannot just look at the internal striker mechanism and ignore the rest of the pistol any more.

The real problem may not be so much the definitions, as much as what we are doing with those definitions today. Agencies and citizens have been buying DA/DAO pistols because these pistols have been perceived as being safer with longer/heavier trigger pulls and so on. Newer designs, such as the XD, makes such thinking a moot point because the XD is a single action internally, yet externally it feels similar to a DAO pistol, and it is just as safe or safer than the classic DA, DA/SA pistols, especially the Glock (see Part Two below).

www.handguninfo.com...

As systems evolve, the lines defining a particular weapon's classification and how it is viewed become a labyrinth of terminology and predisposed ideas... however incorrect they may be.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
The Glock design can be prone to all kinds of holster issues... Here is one that points out that even when the weapon operates as designed, something bad can happen:
I'll take the moment to point out that the above accident could not occur with my Springfield Armory XD-40 Sub-Compact.

The above accident also would not have occurred had he not had a live round in the chamber. Unless you're an on-duty police officer, there is absolutely no reason to have a live round in the chamber. Especially on a Glock.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
U.S. Marshal shoots own hand

Again, didn't do the simplest thing of checking the chamber. I never keep one in the chamber. But I still check it anytime I disassemble my Glock. If you don't then the above situations happen.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Any weapon safety design can be overcome by the operators carelessness or outright stupidity

And this is the key phrase. The above could've happened with most any gun if you're careless and don't take the extra time to double-check, triple-check to make sure that gun is cleared and safe before you do anything with it.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
The feelings of any Glocks have not been injured in the making of this post, but there might be some pissed owners...

Me and my Glock are feeling just fine, thank you.

Originally posted by NuclearPaul
Others have said Glocks can be dangerous, and this guy would agree.

There's no reason to hate on Glocks because of that video. That DEA officer asked if the gun was safe and assumed it was safe, but never checked it himself. That could've happened with most any other gun.

If you don't check your chamber, it doesn't matter what gun it is.