Lacrimosa - Mozart

This is about the Illuminati. I have heard from a friend that Mozart got a lot of flack from the Illuminati due to a song of his. Firstly, I was wondering if the name of the song was Lacrimosa. Secondly, If it is, does anyone have a translation of the words in that song. Thirdly, If Lacrimosa is not the song, then I would like the translation of the words from the correct song.

www.musicdepartment.org.uk...

On second thought, It couldn't have been Lacrimosa since it wasn't finished when he died of illness.

[edit on 11-8-2004 by DetectivePerez]

You do know that Mozart was a freemason, right?

As for the so-called "flack from the Illuminati"? Have you got anything to back up that claim?

If I had something to back up the claim, then I would not have asked if anyone knew anything. My friend who's father was invited to join the Bilderberg group told me that Mozart was on the inside of an elite circle. He told me that since he devulged too many secrets in a song he was poisoned.

I believe you've asked this same question in another form here -
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Might I suggest you do your own research at a more suitable site than this one first. Also there are many Internet sites on Mozart, as well as various translators to be found there too.

OK. Here's a site that might explain some things.

www.mastermason.com...

As you can see - it's highly unlikely that Mozart was poisoned by people within his own Order. He was highly respected and was a champion of Freemasonry.

Originally posted by Leveller
www.mastermason.com...

Ah, and even this link promulagtes the incorrect rumour that the Bavarian Illuminati were "virulently" anti-clerical and anti-monarchial. As this link indicates, they were neither.

Hey!! Nobody's perfect!!!

You don't expect me to read all of the crap that I post do you?

Sorry, i lost track of that thread. I thought i posted it somewhere else. Thanks for the correction. Its ok if you delete this thread ZZZ, im cool with that

Well its a nice song regardless

Originally posted by Leveller
OK. Here's a site that might explain some things.

www.mastermason.com...

As you can see - it's highly unlikely that Mozart was poisoned by people within his own Order. He was highly respected and was a champion of Freemasonry.

He was not a 'champion of Freemasonry' as you put it. Mozart publicly supported the restrictions placed upon the Craft in Austria during the 18th century. It is of course possible that he had private reservations to these restrictions. Although it is true that Mozart was a keen supporter of the Craft early on in his Masonic career, latter the Freemasons drew in alchemists, mystics and psudoscientists. Freemasonry then fell away from the Enlightenment ideals that were so close to Mozart’s heart. There is also some evidence that towards the end of his life Mozart was preparing to found his own secret society called 'The Grotto'. If this is true his opera the 'Magic Flute' is likely to be a manifesto for this order rather than an apology for the freemasons.

1. yeah, you should read stuff you type! links, depends - in this case it was by request so you don't necessarily have to have read it

2. on another reply there - who they hey is doing that? ( you can't swear here - funny ship, eh? ), lots of threads I have read, there is this type of reply that tends to crop up, and it always says the same thing - 'why-did-you-ask-about-that-here-go-find-someplace-else-like-a-[insert value here]-board'

Wellllllll - they ask about it here because it's acceptable to ask for info. on various topics. geez.

Originally posted by pignut
Although it is true that Mozart was a keen supporter of the Craft early on in his Masonic career, latter the Freemasons drew in alchemists, mystics and psudoscientists. Freemasonry then fell away from the Enlightenment ideals that were so close to Mozart’s heart.

I would say that it was exactly the opposite and an understanding of 15th to 18th century history is helpful here. You have to put things in the context of the times.
Prior to and during Mozart's time, alchemy, mystisism and "psuedoscience" was the norm. Science operated within religion and magic. Freemasonry already contained these groups of people and they were the majority "thinkers". The Enlightenment did not begin until well after Freemasonry had been founded and the "psuedoscientists" would already have been an established group. It's highly doubtful that Mozart would have been influenced by a swing away from Enlightenment (if indeed that was ever the case) as the Order would have already contained those people - they were operating before he joined and whilst he was a Freemason. Incidentally - even some of Mozart's patrons were practitioners of "psuedoscience" and he himself was probably a patient of Anton Mesmer. Scientific methods that are looked upon with suspicion today were not viewed in the same way back then - they were literally the norm.
One should also remember that Mozart wasn't initiated into Freemasonry until 1784 - 5 years before the age of Enlightment is generally accepted as ending. It's doubtful that the Enlightenment could make such a big impact on Mozart's view of Freemasonry within a mere 5 years.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by pignut
Although it is true that Mozart was a keen supporter of the Craft early on in his Masonic career, latter the Freemasons drew in alchemists, mystics and psudoscientists. Freemasonry then fell away from the Enlightenment ideals that were so close to Mozart’s heart.

I would say that it was exactly the opposite and an understanding of 15th to 18th century history is helpful here. You have to put things in the context of the times.
Prior to and during Mozart's time, alchemy, mystisism and "psuedoscience" was the norm. Science operated within religion and magic. Freemasonry already contained these groups of people and they were the majority "thinkers". The Enlightenment did not begin until well after Freemasonry had been founded and the "psuedoscientists" would already have been an established group. It's highly doubtful that Mozart would have been influenced by a swing away from Enlightenment (if indeed that was ever the case) as the Order would have already contained those people - they were operating before he joined and whilst he was a Freemason. Incidentally - even some of Mozart's patrons were practitioners of "psuedoscience" and he himself was probably a patient of Anton Mesmer. Scientific methods that are looked upon with suspicion today were not viewed in the same way back then - they were literally the norm.
One should also remember that Mozart wasn't initiated into Freemasonry until 1784 - 5 years before the age of Enlightment is generally accepted as ending. It's doubtful that the Enlightenment could make such a big impact on Mozart's view of Freemasonry within a mere 5 years.

Where it is true that the ‘Age of Enlightenment’ was principally associated with the eighteenth century its root may be found with the medieval Humanists. Another strand in the development Enlightenment was the new empirical science of Galileo, Copernicus and others. The enlightenment and indeed modern philosophy really beguines with the work of the French rationalist René Descartes (1596-1650). As the putative farther of modern philosophy Descartes discarded many elements of scholasticism in an attempt to reconcile the new science with his catholic faith. Descartes enjoined everybody to thik for themselves rather than take everything on authority. Another humanist and sceptic Michel de Montaigne (1533-1592) emphasised the impotence of culture leading him to adopt a form of relativism. This cultural relativism allowed people to move for change in their own European way of doing things to achieve unprecedented political and economic freedoms.

As you know, organised freemasonry does not beguine until 1717 with the formation of the premier grand lodge in England. Naturally it existed for some years before but the earliest traces date no earlier than 1646 with the initiation of Elias Ashmole. It seems likely that the Freemasons were formed in imitation of stone masons guilds rather than being a direct descendant from them. This is suggested by the a number of facts from the period. A) that the lodge in which Elias Ashmole was initiated consisted entirely of men that had no connection with the building trade. B) That there were no lodges in England that had both ‘operative’ and ‘speculative’ masons in them. C) The absence of Lodges in Scotland that where wholly ‘speculative’ in nature. All of the loges in Scotland were either entirely ‘operative’ or were mixed. D) There is considerable doubt as to what role the operative mason played in the lodges in Scotland. Whether they were just honorary or full members is not known. Also whether they had access to any of the esoteric elements of the operatives, they may have been admitted by a different ritual. To say as many have, that freemasonry spread from Scotland to England is also most unlikely as it ignores the cultural differences between these two nations. For instance the Scots still refer to England as the ‘old enemy’ and France as the ‘old friend’.

In my opinion an indirect descent from the stone masons guild is evident from these considerations. One motive for the formation of the Freemasons may be that it was set up to help reconcile the profound religious and political division in England. The ad hoc lodge in which Elias Ashmole was initiated consisted of both Parliamentarians/protestants and Catholics/Royalists. The proscription from discussing religion and politics in the Temple would then make a great deal of sense. The attempt to foster political and religious tolerance was concealed by adopting the front of a convivial social club.

As I say the roots of the enlightenment were already established and the movement towards a free and tolerant society had already been set in motion. The Freemasons were always a part of this process. As time went by and the Age of Enlightenment began proper, more enlightenment ideals became adopted by the order.

You are quite correct however to say that that Alchemists, mystics and psudoscience considered quite normal during the eighteenth century and were well established in Freemasonic circles but that duos not mean that all freemasons held with these pursuits. Indeed the lodge to which Mozart belonged ‘The Lodge of Beneficence’ along with several others in Vienna at that time, actively shunned all forms of irrationalism and mysticism. Anton Mesmer for example was caricatured in Mozart’s opera Così fan tutte. The Lodge of Beneficence concentrated instead on the empirical sciences and furthering the enlightenment ideals. Although I agree there was a different attitude towards many practises frowned on today there were still distinctions drawn between experimental science and quackery.

When Joseph II turned his opposition to occult freemasonic sects against the mainstream order itself he restricted the number of lodges in Vienna to two, forcing many of the rationalist elements to infiltrate Mozart’s lodge. Also Masons were infiltrated by the Secret Police (no pun intended) and by quislings seeking social advancement by denouncing their brethren. It was at this time that Mozart became disgruntled with the Freemasons, or rather with what they had become, and founded his one order ‘The Grotto’. Little is known about this order but one may suspect that it would have been more rationalistic and less misogynistic than mainstream freemasonry at that time. No doubt he held true to the core Masonic ideals.

I do not know when the enlightenment was supposed to have ended but as I have attempted to show Freemasonry was always humanistic in its approach to society and was founded with the aim of inculcating political and religious tolerance from the outset. In any case the Freemasons became an important enlightenment movement. hotbed of enlightenment. You will recall that the lodge to which Mozart belonged was controlled by the Iliuminanti. Where there is no evidence that he belonged to the Iliuminanti it is very likely that he shared many of their enlightenment ideals.

Lacrimosa is the 6th part of Requiem, the last piece Mozart composed when was on his death bad. The masterpiece was later finished by Antonio Salieri. Actualy Lacrimosa was the very last one but as far as I kno was the Catholic Churche who asked Mozart to compose somthing that would remain unforgetable and would last forever.
Lacrimosa is latin and in enlgish means tearful, in a crying way. I don't remember the text because is been over 16 years since I studied for the last time (I have a degree in music) and back then anyways I had no idea about Illuminati or Secret Societies.

Originally posted by Telos
Lacrimosa is the 6th part of Requiem, the last piece Mozart composed when was on his death bad. The masterpiece was later finished by Antonio Salieri.

Actually, the Requiem was completed by Franz Sussmayr, a student of Mozart's who also assisted with Die Zauberflote.

In modern "pop culture history", Salieri is sometimes credited with helping along Mozart's demise, due to the play/film "Amadeus", but there is no evidence that Salieri (or anyone else) had anything to do with Mozart's death, as it was most likely from natural causes resulting from typhoid fever.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Telos
Lacrimosa is the 6th part of Requiem, the last piece Mozart composed when was on his death bad. The masterpiece was later finished by Antonio Salieri.

Actually, the Requiem was completed by Franz Sussmayr, a student of Mozart's who also assisted with Die Zauberflote.

In modern "pop culture history", Salieri is sometimes credited with helping along Mozart's demise, due to the play/film "Amadeus", but there is no evidence that Salieri (or anyone else) had anything to do with Mozart's death, as it was most likely from natural causes resulting from typhoid fever.

I think the theory about Salieri's role in Mozart's death is just BS.
I don't know nothing about Sussmayr...

Originally posted by Telos

I think the theory about Salieri's role in Mozart's death is just BS.

Agreed. There was even a "Simpsons" episode a while back that spoofed it, with Bart playing Mozart, Lisa playing Salieri, Nelson playing Beethoven, and Mr. Burns playing Frederick the Great!

I don't know nothing about Sussmayr...

But the Requiem would not be finished by Mozart. He died just after midnight on December 5, 1791, in Vienna. He was only 35 years old. The completion of the Requiem was left to his friend and pupil Franz Sussmayr.

Source

The story is actually longer and more interesting than that presented in the above link, and can be read in any major biography of Mozart.