A plea for objectivity - Masonry

I'm not a Mason. I have begun the process of joining them, however, as some of you might know. An obvious benefit of joining is that I'll learn about them by being among them.

This board is full of Masons and anti-Masons. The allegations against the Masons are UNPROVEN. Period. Certainly, people have tried to bring some kind of evidence to bear againt the Masons. If the Masons had been dead for hundreds of years, or had Fremasonry faded into historical oblivion, I'd applaud the anti-Maosons and conspiracy theorists for a fine effort. BUT . . . . the Freemasons are alive and well today. Given that FACT, I offer the ultimate CHALLENGE, and for Masons looking for a way to end this argument, the ULTIMATE POWER POSE to adopt aginst attacks:

Join them.

Otherwise, the allegations are meaningless, and even suggest a bit of mental instability on the part of the accusers.

There is no substitue for firsthand experience. If you want to be an authority on Tigers, your knowledge isn't worth a damn unless you have been among them - watched them hunt, eat, socialize, etc. If you want to be an authority on Corvettes, then go and see one, take it apart, have a look at what's inside. touch it, get an idea of what kind of wrk went into it. Otherwise, you're an amatuer, a dliettante, a hobbyist.

Certianlly, this is a site where we discuss "secret societies" and "conspiracy theores." Problem is, we have people here who are slandered, defamed, and dragged through the mud because otherwise innocuous speculations affect them directly and even personally. HERE is where the line should be drawn.

So, which non-Mason conspiracy theorists are up for the challenge??

[edit on 11-8-2004 by LTD602]

I can sympathise with your views, LTD602, although I'm not a mason. But I doubt youe post will do all that much good because of the number of trolls!

What I'd really like to see happen, would be some proof that intending posters had actually conducted an ATS Search on the topic they wished to post to - especially before posting "new" threads. This would prevemt a lot of the tiresome & boring repetitiveness that so often happens.

I guess this would take a lot of coding though - & maybe it couldn't be done anyway. Good luck with your challenge!

"I'll learn about them by being among them"

Check back with me once you get 30, 31, or 32nd degrees.

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
"I'll learn about them by being among them"

Check back with me once you get 30, 31, or 32nd degrees.

I have the 32nd degree in the Scottish rite. What would you like to know?

By the way, just so you know, there are no people who have only the 30th or 31st degree. The degrees are given in a single grouping, so that one (usually) either has the 14th, the 18th, or the 32nd degree. Everyone who has the 14th degree will eventually get the 32nd degree, almost universially within a single year.

So, once again... what's your question (or, more likely, what would you like to insinuate) about the 30th, 31st, or 32nd degrees?

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Everyone who has the 14th degree will eventually get the 32nd degree, almost universially within a single year.

Ah. If only that was true for us Brits. We tend to loiter a bit longer over our degrees.

*gets a fit of jealousy and blows raspberry at Alex*



[edit on 11-8-2004 by Leveller]

Originally posted by Leveller
Ah. If only that was true for us Brits. We tend to loiter a bit longer over our degrees.

*gets a fit of jealousy and blows raspberry at Alex*

Well, don't get too upset... our brains and souls don't work any faster over here (well, our brains work a little faster in Canada... cold weather, don't you know... prevents overheating ). So there's no reason to think we have a much better understanding of the Scottish Rite than you.

On the other hand, I'd hate to hear that you only got one degree a year... having to wait 32 years for the degrees... what if you died halfway through???

On the third hand, I'm joining the SRIA, and they only give out one degree a year (to a maximum of nine, if you're REALLY good and want to take an administrative position), and it seems much more precious because of that. At the risk of starting up the old quantity vs. wuality argument again, I really think it's important to strike a balance between being able to digest the degrees properly (more time) and being able to actually give people the information they want during a normal human lifetime (less time).

Scottish rite in the antipodes assigns degrees 4-18 and 19-30 separately. The 33rd degree is far more exclusive than in other regions.

One of the criteria for entry in areas that I traverse mostly is a favorable opinion preconceived of the institution. Men with an anti-masonic disposition are unlikely to disguise that from their prospective fellow Lodge members. At its worst it can come across not as idle curiosity but as blatant hypocrisy.

Genuinely interested and qualified men will be met with a genuinely enlightening experience.

Fortunately we're not that slow.
But the degrees are done in clumps, so you join them separately.

For example, the RAM is one degree as is the Chapter, but I believe that Allied Order of Masonic Degrees incorporates six, Order of the Secret Monitor contains three degrees and so on.

As for not thinking you haven't got a better understanding of the Scottish Rite than me? Dude. Everyone's got a better understanding than me. That's why I had to go out and buy an excellent book called "Beyond The Craft" by Keith B Jackson (a brother in my Province). It explains all of the English degrees in clear, concise English.

www.masonica.co.uk...

He now owes me for the pimp.


By the way. I'm now jealous because you're joining the SRIA. That's quite a hard one to join over here. According to Keith B Jackson's "Beyond the Craft" (another shameless plug) not many of us Brits manage to get the 9th.



[edit on 11-8-2004 by Leveller]

Well, of course I hope to earn IX in the SRIA someday, but one step at a time. If you think there are very few IXes in the UK, you should consider Canada. I believe we have two IXes altogether. I think you need a very high level of Masonic knowledge, philosophical knowledge, understanding of SRIA, administrative skill, and personal rectitude and reliability to even get the VII.

I know a fellow here who I believe also has the VIII. He is a member of, and is active in, every single appendant body one can join here (this includes Martinists and other widely dispersed co-orders). He has a HUGE library of books I've never even HEARD of. He has been made Master of the Work for the Scottish Rite. This stuff is tough

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
If you think there are very few IXes in the UK, you should consider Canada. I believe we have two IXes altogether. I think you need a very high level of Masonic knowledge, philosophical knowledge, understanding of SRIA, administrative skill, and personal rectitude and reliability to even get the VII.

Are you saying that I can't get by on good looks alone?

Is SRIA a Christian degree in Canadaland as it is in England? Over here one must fully embrace the "principles of Christianity" to be able to join.

You have to be a trinitarian Christian to join here, but that's pretty broad. As far as I'm aware, no-one in the SRIA will prevent you from joining because your opinions are insufficiently orthodox, as long as you can reasonably call yourself a Trinitarian Christian.

What is the difference between rituals of the order you belong to with the 32nd degree and the SRIA? Is there a whole new initiation? What do the special clothes look like and the words said at the beginning and ending of each meeting? What does SRIA stand for?

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
What is the difference between rituals of the order you belong to with the 32nd degree and the SRIA?

The SRIA is a completely different organisation from the Scottish Rite, in which I have the 32nd degree.

Is there a whole new initiation?

But of course. I will (hopefully) receive the I degree in the SRIA this fall. There are very few SRIA members in my area, as is my understanding, but some will actually be coming from England, including the world's most prominent member of the SRIA (i.e. the person who organises the body for the entire world).

What do the special clothes look like and the words said at the beginning and ending of each meeting?

Now, honestly, you don't expect me to tell you that even if I knew, do you? As I'm sure you're aware, Masonic and para-Masonic orders do have secrets. I chose to interpret the meaning of the word "secret" broadly, and I choose not to share information about either means of recognition or ritual in any of the bodies to which I belong. Other brethren have different interpretations of the word "secret," and while they will not discuss the means of recognition, they will discuss the ritual. Even I will discuss ritual in broad terms, such as saying that the degrees of regular Masonry recall certain events (probably entirely symbolic and not historical) ocurring related to the building of King Solomon's Temple to God.

What does SRIA stand for?

SRIA stands for "Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia," or, in English, The Rosicrucian Society in Anglia (roughly, England).

P.S., I should note that here in Canada we join the SRIA, since we are a commonwealth country, and Societas Rosicruciana-ly speaking, we are under the jurisdiction of England. In the United States, you have the SRICF, or Societas Rosicruciana in Citivus Foederalis, although I believe I misspelled those last two words.

[edit on 12-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

But of course. I will (hopefully) receive the I degree in the SRIA this fall. There are very few SRIA members in my area, as is my understanding, but some will actually be coming from England, including the world's most prominent member of the SRIA (i.e. the person who organises the body for the entire world).

Not trying to be nitpicky here, but just wanted to point out that each regular High Council of the Masonic Rosicrucian Society (SRIA, SRICF, and SRIS) are completely independent bodies, and there is no single authority for the world. Each High Council is sovereign within its own jurisdiction, like Grand Lodges.

Fiat Lvx.

[edit on 12-8-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Not trying to be nitpicky here, but just wanted to point out that each regular High Council of the Masonic Rosicrucian Society (SRIA, SRICF, and SRIS) are completely independent bodies, and there is no single authority for the world. Each High Council is sovereign within its own jurisdiction, like Grand Lodges.

Right. What I was trying to indicate was that the person in charge of the SRIA (not the other ones, SRICF, and SRIS) would be there. On the other hand, that was only my understanding, so I could be completely wrong. I'd like to take this opportunity to indicate that I am not currently a member of the SRIA, so my information on the matter is bound to be somewhat incorrect.

In other words, ML, do you mean that the SRIA has several independant High Councils, or that the SR** organisations each have their own high councils?

I am extremely open minded sometimes to a fault so of course I do not fully believe the things said about the fraternity nor do I discount it.. however.. as a cautious person I would not stumble blindly into joining.. even if I could.. however I can't. I am a woman after all.
They did try to get my hubby to join them.. he chose not to.

Nephratari-

I certainly understand where you're coming from, but it is a logical fallacy to assume that the "middle way" between two contradictory viewpoints is always correct. If we do make this assumption, then we give undue power to those willing to make the most wild accusations.

For example, let's say my neighbor and I have a dispute about fence placement. I say the fence is one foot closer to my house than it should be, and he says it's one foot closer to his house than it should be. The middle view is to say we're both wrong, and the fence should stay where it is. That's fair. But what if I say the fence should be moved eleven feet closer to his house, and he (being more humble and less greedy) says it should be moved one foot closer to mine. The "middle road-er" would conclude that the fence should be moved five feet closer to his house. Clearly, my greed and chutzpah acted to my advantage.

Let's take another example. A schoolteacher has worked succesfully for 15 years, and has a sterling reputation. One day, one of his students accuses him of making sexual advances. This is inexcusable, if true. The student is a very poor, uncooperative student, and is known to have been angry for getting low marks. The student has no evidence of the event at all, and the story doesn't seem to fit in with the known facts. The "middle way" philosophy would have us believing that we can't prove that the teacher did anything wrong, but to be on the safe side, he should be fired and his pension taken away. Is that fairness?

Let's take the ultimate example. A group of men, let's call them "Treemasons" are known to engage in public good works and have a philosophy of civilly and morally positive behaviour. One day, a group of people start insinuating that these men worship Satan, and kill virgins. There is, of course, no proof of these accusations. The "middle way" would be to say that a lack of proof is not a proof of lack, and so one must make the assumption that the Treemasons are somewhat Satanic and kill a few virgins. Clearly, the middle way can give way to a witch-hunt mentality, can't it?

"a lack of proof is not a proof of lack"

Well put, AK.

Originally posted by LTD602
"a lack of proof is not a proof of lack"

Well put, AK.

The principle itself is true, but it does not mean the same thing as "where there's smoke, there's fire." The problem is, there is a lack of proof about an infinite number of things. There is just as much proof that Freemasons are Satanists as there is proof that we all like Figgy Pudding with green peppers mixed in. You can make any accusation you want if you don't have to provide proof. The problem with "the middle way" is that it automatically gives half-credence to every accusation, and thus gives inappropriate weight to those willing to make wild accusations.

[edit on 12-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
In other words, ML, do you mean that the SRIA has several independant High Councils, or that the SR** organisations each have their own high councils?

There are three High Councils: Masonic Rosicrucian Society of England (SRIA), Masonic Rosicrucian Society of the United States (SRICF), and Masonic Rosicrucian Society of Scotland (SRIS). Each of these High Councils consists of a Supreme Magus of the IX� who presides, and and Grand Officers.
The High Councils charter Rosicrucian Colleges within their jurisdictions, which consist of not more than 72 members per College, which correspond to the 72 Paths of Wisdom in the Holy Qabalah. These Colleges are governed by Officers which bear similar titles to those of the High Councils. The presiding Officer of a College is styled the Chief Adept.
For example, in the US, has 30 Colleges in 30 states, which are under jurisdiction of the High Council SRICF.

Fiat Lvx.