69 yr old homeowner opened fire during no-knock police raid on his home

Originally posted by KilrathiLG

who cares if he was an alleged drug dealer innocent until proven guilty is how it works in this county you have to prove it to lock them up

Shame all they needed to kill him was a "tip."

Remember the Marine murdered by SWAT at home in Tucson, Arizona? Wasn't that also drug related?

I think its some kind a scheme to create propaganda on the "drug war." "Police" go on random raids, murder some civilians, and then plant the guns and drugs.

What a sad world we live in today.





BTW you know what? We could save this country a lot of money by executing drug dealers on the spot instead of putting them through lengthy trials and putting them into jail.

Save money.
Depopulate.
Show your power over the people.

Wow 3 birds with one stone.

Originally posted by Lightrule
Lets break this down into the plainest possible terms...

5 police officers with guns get out of an unmarked van and kick in the door to a house. They are shot at and in return shoot back. Civilian shooter is killed. Police use self defense argument.

I see a few problems with this, from the beginning

The police broke the law when they entered the property without permission. The police broken the law when they destroyed the personal property of the civilian. The police broke the law when they killed a man. This absolutely destroys their self defense argument, you cannot break and enter, commit murder then justify yourself with a self defense argument.

Legally however, the police broke no rules.

The law has been replaced by a legal system people, a legal system hijacked by the rich and powerful.

-Lightrule

Exactly, word for word that's the best breakdown what happened

This system needs changing before more lives are lost

I can see this becoming more and more common

Originally posted by kro32 He was displaying the signs of a drug dealer.

The police found evidence of drug dealing apparantly. This doesn't sound as suspicious as the op makes it out to be.

oh yes of course he was a drug dealer he DID after all have drugs in his house no matter how LEGAL they were.

an old next door neibour (wasn't good area), got busted like that. he was older gentleman, one neibour swore he must be selling drugs as always had freinds commeing over. so called the police on him.

well thepolice DID find a few presription drugs on site (all leagl of course). and so they DID bust him for selling them. this caused him "interesting" problems. from then on he was not alowed to get ANY prescriptions of cotrolled substances. he died within a few month from the lung cancer he was trying tobeat, he lived those months in agony. all because SOMEONE SUSPECTED he was selling drugs

well guess what he WAS selling something, i know because i was a "custumer". when he went to indian reserve for smokes he would pick up some for his freinds who could not get out there.

as for cops barging in like that (no reports of saying they were police). and in all honesty even if they had may not have registered, thats why cops should ALWAYS knock, call out and THEN give time for responce. especialy in bad or poorer neibourhoods., where people do things like home invasions. of course people will react. you don't know its cops, so automaticaly think being invaded by criminals likely to kill you. so you will go into auto pilot for self defence, this guy had a gun he could get to (good for him). could just have easily been a knife, stick,crowbar, pan, tv, sword, mace, polarm, bow, hell even a fork will do in a pinch, ANYTHING at hand can become a weapon, when surprised and SCARED for YOUR LIFE. oh they were wearing cloths that said police on them, do you honestly beleive they will see that? when confronted with peeps in black combat suits carrying guns you will notice the word police that is most likely not even visable as cops would be crouching to give low profile to target. would you notice that the guy mugging you with a 45 magnum has a shirt on that says killer?, rather doubtfull as all you will see is that big barrol pointing at you.

it realy is unfortunate that the guy didn't take a few cops down befor they MURDERED him. enough cops die doing something that should be illigal in the first place. then i am sure they would eventualy learn (i hope they'd be smart enough to learn), not to be such compleat idiots putting THEIR OWN lives at risk. on some jerk's SUSPICIANS or mabe even out and out LIES. those cops in this case should all be imprissoned along with whoever wrote the warrent for FIRST DEGREE MURDER, that is the INTENT to murder. as anyone with half a brain should realize that surprise added with fear makes a deadly cocktail. the guys family should be awarded millions for the incompitance of the police force that is supposidly there to PROTECT citizens not kill then "accuse" of being a drug dealer because he has prescription drugs for medical issues.

i also beleive that the person who called it in, in the first place should be charged with at least aiding and abettitng, and taken for every penny he has or will get. IF YOU DON'T "KNOW FOR A FACT" DO NOT. stir up truble by crying wolf.

reply to post by NuclearPaul


kinda funny you say that because i wiki'd him and guess how he died?

By 1998 Cooper was living in Arizona. Still wanted on the charges of tax evasion,[19][20] Cooper was the subject of an arrest warrant for "aggravated assault with a deadly weapon" against a local doctor shortly before his death.[19] On his website, Cooper wrote that any attempt to execute unlawful arrest warrants "will be met with armed resistance."[19] In July and September 2001, Cooper was accused of brandishing a handgun to threaten passersby near his home in Eagar, Arizona.[20] Just before midnight on November 6, 2001, officers of the Apache County Sheriff's office converged on Cooper's homestead to arrest him on a warrant arising from the threat complaint.

kinda weird

reply to post by ProphecyPhD


Well to me it's not cut and dry. On the basis of one informant's complaint, they go in with guns ablazing. What the hell kind of investigative technique is that? On the basis of one single tip they jump right in to swat team action? That to me is a pathetic misuse of both intelligence and resources.

And in response to one complaint about an old man, they send in a swat team? Intelligent police work sure has deteriorated a lot IMO.

RIP to Bill. My condolences to his family and friends.

One of these days a SWAT unit is going to bust into some de facto John Rambo-type's home by mistake and he wont have his safety on....and the "No knock entry" to "protect police" will backfire with tragic consequences. The homeowner will likely be taken out......but he could take down the whole first squad as they enter via single file.

reply to post by aboutface


I agree. An informant's tip (often a criminal playing both sides) is reason to conduct a police investigation but NOT a reason to put innocent lives on the line...unless it is a situation that is time sensitive like a kidnapping, etc.

reply to post by Hillbilly123069


Just for a little reference:

The police do not have to knock if they fear for their safety or that there will be a destruction of evidence. Drugs are the common reason for not knocking. The guy had time to see that these were cops. It wasn't reasonable for him to think otherwise. Those are just my two cents.

reply to post by Hillbilly123069
People of America. These things that the government are doing is against our constitutional rights. We have rights that are being over looked by the government and ourselfs. and we arnt fighting for them. thats a problem. if it was anyone else walking into someones house like that they would be tried for murder. Just because these men have badges and are supposed to be protecting us, dosnt mean they care. I would have done the same thing as this man. acutally im waiting on the day this happens. because i believe its coming soon to all america. sooner than alot of people think. and i hope everyone is prepared.

As Ron Paul has said,

"The war on drugs, has killed more people than the drugs."

It is time to stop this insanity.

I don't care what anyone claims, I know reality.

Anyone who goes into another person's house with guns over a bottle of prescription pills, and ends in the death of the home owner, is a criminal and murderer.

Self-defense can only be claimed by the innocent party, the old man.

The aggressors were armed to the teeth and "Raiding" the place.

Over a pill.

So murder is worth a pill?

This society is so rotten it's putrid.

Originally posted by kro32
reply to post by ProphecyPhD

 

Nothing in the articles states he had a hearing problem however.

This guy was selling drugs to supplement his income and probably decided to suicide by cop once he got busted.

Right.

People who defend blatent murder by cops is disgusting.

Did they really need a full scale swat style raid on his house for selling pain meds? Which, they didn't even find on him? Obviously these pricks were bored and needed to test their macho bravado out on an innocent person, concoted some BS reason to raid a house and went gungho hoping to get a good laugh.. sadly someone had to die instead of the intended humiliation. That's how I see it anyways.

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
reply to post by Hillbilly123069

 

Just for a little reference:

The police do not have to knock if they fear for their safety or that there will be a destruction of evidence. Drugs are the common reason for not knocking. The guy had time to see that these were cops. It wasn't reasonable for him to think otherwise. Those are just my two cents.

That's exactly the same set of rules that the Waffen-Schutzstaffel operated upon.

No need for any formalities, we just kick in the door and put a gun to your head, scum.

Who cares about human dignity anyway, it just gets in the way.

What you think the SS bullets hurt more than SWAT's? Sorry but dead is dead, and paramilitary style police tactics is what made Nazi Germany the wonderful progressive utopia it truly was.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Originally posted by kro32
reply to post by ProphecyPhD

 

Nothing in the articles states he had a hearing problem however.

This guy was selling drugs to supplement his income and probably decided to suicide by cop once he got busted.

Right.

People who defend blatent murder by cops is disgusting.

Did they really need a full scale swat style raid on his house for selling pain meds? Which, they didn't even find on him? Obviously these pricks were bored and needed to test their macho bravado out on an innocent person, concoted some BS reason to raid a house and went gungho hoping to get a good laugh.. sadly someone had to die instead of the intended humiliation. That's how I see it anyways.

What if the old guy knew something about the city council being up to some very shady questionable behavior (extremely commonplace reality), and they wanted to rub him out so to speak? "Get rid of the problem".

This would seem like a likely and basic type of cover story for a type of mafia style execution.

I am just presenting mere speculation for fun here, to spice up the discussion a bit and throw in some ATS-flair.

reply to post by muzzleflash


To say that the cops acted outrageous here is to ignore this guys conduct. Who starts shooting at people dressed in police officer uniforms when they burst into your house? Who should really bear the blame of this guys death? The officers in executing a valid warrant to search for evidence of a drug deal or the guy who started blasting? If this guy was totally innocent, why did he think it was wise to fire upon the cops?

To use some sort of excuse such as: what if he thought that the police were impostors is unreasonable. Why would he think that? How many run ins have you had with police officers that would make you think any police officer is an impostor? How many times has a band of police officer impersonators barged into someone's house? I haven't heard of too many times. The fault of this guy's death rests squarely on the shoulders of the guy who pulled out the gun and initiated the firing.

I understand that most people on this board hate cops. But sometimes you gotta look at the issue objectively. The cops didn't come in guns ablazing, the guy was the one who had the happy trigger. And the people on this boards excuse for him (and I say excuse because he is the one who put innocent lives in danger; including his own) is that he could have believed they were fake cops. Really?

Another life lost in the "war on drugs". Seriously, didn't cops try to gather intel on a suspected drug dealer in the past? Wire the confidential informant, get him to make a buy, use this as evidence and bust the guy. Simple, but no justification for the SWAT team to be a valuable tool in law enforcement. I say it is a waste of tax dollars to use SWAT except in exceptional cases. More than that, it is a waste of life to say the cops were scared and had to use deadly force.

This is something that we as American citizens are going to have to deal with. Get involved, tell the police chief, mayor, city council, and anyone else involved these type of overly aggressive raids will not be tolerated except in extreme situations. That is their intended purpose, not to be used on a daily basis.

And as for the deadly force because we were scared crap, how many rounds did the old guy get off before they killed him? Were any of his shots effective? Force, up to and including deadly force, is justifiable as long as there is force from the engaged party. When such force stops, the cops should stop. By being overzealous, they do stupid things like put almost 70 rounds into a Marine who never even fired a shot. The rules of engagement will always be in favor of the cops, but at some point, like NOW, it's getting ridiculous. IMO, of course.

reply to post by Hillbilly123069


I was a Prosecutor for 25 years. I remember when the Right Wing was SO excited for their "law and order" Right Wing SCOTUS. They were so excited that those liberal ideals, like the 4th Amendment, were constantly chipped away at.

In a 5-4 decision, the Right Wing Court gave us this no knock BS.

So. You got what you wanted TeaBags. Have fun with it. You are DIRECTLY responsible for the Police State of America. Now go talk about Obama's birth certificate.

Have we gone back in time? Is this the same Bill cooper who was shot dead by police for predicting the 911 attack?

reply to post by kro32



What's the problem? An innocent man is Dead. That's the problem. How could you not understand what the problem is?