God is GOOD and I will defend Him. A Challenge for Atheists

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Quote:

["If God told you to use a seat belt one day, would you give Him the pride you used in the response below?"]

I'm not operating from your premises and in any case allegories are not 'reality'. Your question is meaningless rhetoric to me. Besides are you not synonymous with 'god', so by gainsaying you, I'm not gainsaying any alleged 'god'.

Quote: [" If you later had an accident, would you blame Him for not telling you about the accident, or would you blame yourself for not following His direction?"]

More storytelling.

Quote: ["This gets at the heart of the matter. You say God should have told you in concrete terms, so this somehow makes Him evil."]

I do not remember saying any such thing. I have said, that a textual analysis of the bible shows me the character Lucifer to be an expression of 'good guy'-principles.

Quote: ["God says have faith and trust Him."]

Considering that the bible is a propaganda-manifest in an ideological conflict, he could hardly have said anything else. Besides it's a circle-argument like most of what you have presented so far. Retelling the mythological story again and again, doesn't make it true.

Quote: ["God said what needed to be said."]

For the propaganda purposes intended, yes.

Quote: ["What happens between is a test of your faith in Him."]

No, it's a test of how gullible I am. Glad to say, that I passed the test by not accepting this mythology on blind faith.

Quote: ["Now replay this again, except you do not have a relationship with God at all."]

Why in the names of the flying spaghetti monster and the great noodle master should I replay anything? You have been repeating the same postulate in post after post: "'God' is good, because he's 'god', so he must be good". The only thing I need to know, is that you are presenting a circle-argument, and I saw that the first time it came around.

You can only have a conceptual 'relationship' with a postulate.

Quote: ["You push Him away before He can ever begin to show you how to live life with meaning."]

Some people and some 'gods' have this obsessional idea, that they want to push THEIR 'meaning' on mankind. Mankind is increasingly disinterested in having such 'meanings' pushed at it, and like me asks for evidence instead of the same propagandistic slogans repeated machine-like.

Quote: ["You drive yourself down the road on your own pride and wisdom."]

According to your premises. Fortunately your premises are as unsubstantiated as the answers deriving from them, so I don't have to worry about your gloomy prophesies on my part.

He is not talking about 'if' we believe in Him. He is referring to the believers themselves. If a believer bears fruit (develops love for others), then he is pruned so that he can bear more fruit. Pruned means cut. Trials are not pleasant but allow us to grow in our wisdom and understanding. Any believer will attest to the work of the Spirit in our lives. Facing truth is never fun. Truth reveal weakness with our virtue. When we face the mirror of God's expectation for us, we fall short and see this very clearly in the reflection. God works on us. It's not all green grass and lazy summer days. God is a father and we are adopted into this vineyard.

As for those who set themselves above God in pride, they are separated form God by their own actions and choices. They are on their own. God calls all to repentance and belief. If a person chooses to walk away, it is by their own volition.

They're too scared not to believe? But worse than that, they pledge to do Gods work, so will they be throwing other men into the FIRE, just because they're a Buddhist or something? That's reason enough?

If I seek good for reward, I am duplicitous. If I seek good to avoid punishment, I am duplicitous. Duplicity is saying one thing but desiring another. Believers seek good as its own reward. Nothing gained in this life is necessary. Nothing lost is ever truly gone. Suffering is the way to reward. Suffer work and you get a paycheck. Suffer a car payment from your paycheck and you get fast transportation and more leisure time to answer posts on ATS. The rewards just keep coming. You suffered, yet reward followed.

Let's flip this. If I seek reward constantly with disregard to the supreme good that God teaches (suffering for the sake of good), suffering still follows me around. If I smoke, I get cancer. This is taking a reward with the result of suffering. If I smoke, I need to spend money. This takes resources away from my family and again, they suffer. My cancer payments then take away my retirement, leaving me out of luck. God then tells me that I should have paid attention to Him. Does this make Him evil?

Believers learn not to take from others for their own gain. This is a simple lesson. Christ suffered every step for you to have grace. Grace is unmerited favor with a God who expects your perfection. Since you cannot be perfect, and either can I, God sees you through the eyes of Christ. It's free to you but costly to God. He only asks you to love Him for providing your guidance in life. You then choose good as its own reward for you and for others.

Go back and read your words. Put them in context to how God acts toward you.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Does it say that God casts a non-believer in the fire? Other men is the answer.

Originally posted by AprilSky
I have not read this thread but simply have to post and say rubbish ... utter rubbish, God is not good.

I HATE god and Jesus and all Christians ... here's why ...

According to Christians the PARABLES are all about the good SEED which according to Christians means the followers of Jesus and the bad seed, being all those who don't believe in Jesus, who are therefore apparently the seed of Satan!

So according to Jesus ...

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

So this is the loving teachings of Jesus ... if you don't believe in me, men will gather you and throw you into a fire!!!

Does that sound anything even remotely like LOVE???

Christians will claim "No, I don't believe non-Christians should burn in hell forever just because they don't believe" but hang on a minute, their whole religion is based on burning those who don't believe in their God.

The whole theory of their religion is, that God will return and burn all the none believes ... are they only believers because their terrified they will be gathered and thrown into the FIRE themselves if they don't believe?

They're too scared not to believe? But worse than that, they pledge to do Gods work, so will they be throwing other men into the FIRE, just because they're a Buddhist or something? That's reason enough?

Now let's address heaven ...

Christians go on about how God is a spirit "only" and how heaven is ONLY for spirits.

If you have no body, you can't feel anything, we know there's no wife's in heaven so no sex, no love, no nothing, no sun on your face, no moon nothing.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage ..

It seems to me they've been sold a bag of NOTHING and they're getting excited about NOTHING.

If you can't feel or love or anything ... your DEAD ... so have they been tricked you into getting excited about being DEAD?

I mean why would anyone even want to go?

Then we have this issue of God being a spirit ... funny because his physical body is described in the bible ...

Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Notice that last bit ... it's pure paganism. God is like the SUN, that is exactly what pagans believe, that God is all powerful and gives life just LIKE the SUN.

But lets carry on because I am sure Christians will come up with some twisted reason for why God is spoken of above as having a body ...

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Well lookie lookie if God is a spirit, how can he come flying down on a horse and start killing people and have his venture dripping in their blood?

I mean really ... the amount of double think Christians must have going on in their heads to get this stuff to work for them must be incredible!!!

Then lets look at the miracles Jesus apparently preformed ... WHY?

If the whole point is to become a spirit and float around in a world of nothingness then why even bother to heal the sick or raise the dead ... I mean, isn't that counterproductive?

Honest question. If you go back and read the various posts from believers and then read those who are against the goodness of God, can you see a trend?

Posts that are against God are against the followers of God as well.

Posts that are for God's goodness leave the other person out of the reply.

Bias and venom permeate posts against God, while posts for God show love, compassion and respect.

Posts for God use examples from the Bible, life and the world at large.

Posts against God use name-calling and accusations against those who support the goodness of God.

As a real life experiment, we demonstrate Gods love and the very thing He stands against. Despite this very clear fact, He still offers a hand to you in love. Pride is all that stands in your way.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Posts against God use name-calling and accusations against those who support the goodness of God.

How about people who believe God is good but that the definition of what god is, that is presented in this thread, is bad?
You believe Jesus is literally the same person as the God in the worst of the depictions of the Old Testament God, in full genocidal rage. I protest that what you present is wrong, and you lessen the good name and character of Jesus by your associations that you have absolutely no evidence for. Jesus came to earth, worked, was abused and suffered and died to counteract the evil of a religion that feasted on tribal supremacy and the persecution of others. He bore upon his body the full fury of that system in its death throws and now your writings come to revive it, flying slogans of revitalizing the very thing Jesus fought against. The name of God the Father of Jesus, who is the True God, is defiled by making Him out to be the tribal god of the fanciful tales of a self glorifying history.
God is good when He is disassociated with the obviously evil god of the Old Testament. Refusing to do that, and insisting on supporting the claims that God must be accurately depicted in the OT, and then pronouncing it good, is destructive to morality.

There is an age old saying,never talk about religion or politics and i will add to this...it leads to war. whether its a war of words or a war of force, still war.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["Facing truth is never fun."]

Nevertheless I recommend you to try it some time.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Honest question. If you go back and read the various posts from believers and then read those who are against the goodness of God, can you see a trend?

Posts that are against God are against the followers of God as well.

Posts that are for God's goodness leave the other person out of the reply.

Bias and venom permeate posts against God, while posts for God show love, compassion and respect.

Posts for God use examples from the Bible, life and the world at large.

Posts against God use name-calling and accusations against those who support the goodness of God.

As a real life experiment, we demonstrate Gods love and the very thing He stands against. Despite this very clear fact, He still offers a hand to you in love. Pride is all that stands in your way.

edit on 7-7-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

Sofar it's mainly been blind faith and demagogy on the circle-argumentatory side.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Honest question. If you go back and read the various posts from believers and then read those who are against the goodness of God, can you see a trend?

Posts that are against God are against the followers of God as well.

Posts that are for God's goodness leave the other person out of the reply.

Bias and venom permeate posts against God, while posts for God show love, compassion and respect.

Posts for God use examples from the Bible, life and the world at large.

Posts against God use name-calling and accusations against those who support the goodness of God.

As a real life experiment, we demonstrate Gods love and the very thing He stands against. Despite this very clear fact, He still offers a hand to you in love. Pride is all that stands in your way.

edit on 7-7-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

Sofar it's mainly been blind faith and demagogy on the circle-argumentatory side.

Second that. I don't see what relevance these "trends" are - What's the user's point?

Give an example from the Bible. I can only speak to a specific set of verses. The OT God and the NT God are the same. Jesus is His Son from the trinity. There are three persons in this reality that represent the three natures of God outside this reality. This view unites Modalism and the trinitarian viewpoint. One God, three Persons. Let me explain.

Keep in mind, this is not the way most Christians describe the trinity. I use my own language and keep the concepts accurate to what we know about our current understanding of nature and creation. We can only describe God by His reflection in this creation. Science provides concepts for us to match to what the Bible says. The concepts are the same with updated language.

God is not in this reality. He is represented in three persons in this reality. The Holy Spirit (Consciousness), the Father (Light/infinity/indeterminate possibility) and the Son (Word/Logos/Wave). Christ (Word/Logos/Son) came in the flesh to live a perfect life as an example of God's goodness. He is the Living Word. One way to think of the Father and the Son is represented by the duality of light. As God uses light to represent enlightenment and what we see around us, this duality of light comes together to make matter in our view of physics. We see a narrow band of this light. The ocean of light comprises the entire universe. All particles have an associated wave. Light is both a particle and a wave. This light reflects to generate the physical world in an image. We are 'in' the image of God. Look in a mirror and you see yourself 'in' an image. The image of you in the mirror is not real, it is a reflection. The image of you here on earth is only an image of where God is. God is outside this image, above in dimensions. As above, so below. He operates through the three persons of the trinity. We are in an image and no harm can come to us in the image. We can only experience consciousness in our vehicle (Body). You are not your body. It is a bio-mechanical suit you wear to experience the image. We will get a new body when we transcend this reality by learning love. This is the Hindu avatar. The movie was based on this ancient truth.

God is not pleased when we worship idols. Idols are matter devoid of consciousness (Spirit). God refuses to be represented by matter. Animals have a soul, but not spirit. God refuses to be represented by animals. God is not in this image. We are in the image. God is in the image only by His trinity of persons. They represent His nature. Read my description of the Trinity HERE. I mention idols because God told man not to worship idols. Many of the nations that were destroyed worshiped matter and/or animals as the downfall. We seem to do the same with all our material goods. The Bible is specific on this point.

Humans have a soul and a spirit. This gives us the ability to reason, create and choose. We have the three natures of God in us. If we use this nature for evil, we are judged. Light (particle/infinity of choice), Son (force/wave/creative instinct), and Spirit (Consciousness/NOUS). We are in the image as matter created by both particle and wave (Father and son). The soul is our animal nature that is driven by the intellect (Spirit). We have the choice to overcome the soul (animal nature) with the spirit. We can also live by the animal nature in aggression to others. The law of nature is eat or be eaten. The law of God is love.

This is God's Image. We are in God's image. God is ultimately in control of this image and provides the law for us to live by. Love is the prime law. Do unto others in His image. We are here to learn. After the education, we gain love and move on. If not, we fail. God provides all the resources (matter) we need to survive and thrive in love toward others. What we take for ourselves then becomes our judgment by the law of nature. We reap what we sow. The object is to gain union with the Spirit and transcend by producing fruit in the tree above. We are the roots below. This is the tree of life. If you read the rest of the thread, I have already covered this.

Since you seem to be struggling with your beliefs, I am more than happy to assist you any way I can. I'm not in this for myself. My theology is as flawed as yours. God is in the image of the Bible, His word. Christ IS the Living Word in perfection. The Bible is an image. If your hands are dirty, the image will appear that way as well. Clean your hands and the mirror is clean.

Ultimately, I believe in transmigration. For a number of reasons, this is what I think is meant by, "You must be born again" in John 3. I can't prove it, but it does seem to be hinted at as a mystery. If you understand the concept, then all of history has been our lesson of how to view God. We may have been here, literally, through it all. We are baptized many times in the water of the body (material world) The earth is our 2nd womb. Each life is under a veil in the temple (Body). We live by faith, not fact. If the veil was not there, we would be living by previous knowledge. Christ came and tore the veil but did not remove it completely. Each life is a lesson until Christ takes us out of here. This is my view. I don't expect anyone else to hold it. We all need to think for ourselves. If I am incorrect on transmigration, then we have one life to live. Better get it right. Again, I've covered this already. This is an overview. I'm here for you in love. Speak to me privately if you want to discuss God's love for you. superiored Gmail.

This is all in the Bible. Read it for all it's worth. Love God and return His favor.

1 Corinthians 13

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Buddha:

13. The World

Follow the way joyfully
Through this world and on beyond!
For consider the world - A bubble, a mirage.
See the world as it is,
And death shall overlook you.
Come, consider the world,
A painted chariot for kings,
A trap for fools.
But he who sees goes free.
As the moon slips from behind a cloud And shines,
So the master comes out from behind his ignorance And shines.
The world is in darkness.
How few have eyes to see
How few the birds
Who escape the net and fly to heaven!

John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Buddha and Christ both talk of "The Way." This is LOVE!

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Posts against God use name-calling and accusations against those who support the goodness of God.

How about people who believe God is good but that the definition of what god is, that is presented in this thread, is bad?
You believe Jesus is literally the same person as the God in the worst of the depictions of the Old Testament God, in full genocidal rage. I protest that what you present is wrong, and you lessen the good name and character of Jesus by your associations that you have absolutely no evidence for. Jesus came to earth, worked, was abused and suffered and died to counteract the evil of a religion that feasted on tribal supremacy and the persecution of others. He bore upon his body the full fury of that system in its death throws and now your writings come to revive it, flying slogans of revitalizing the very thing Jesus fought against. The name of God the Father of Jesus, who is the True God, is defiled by making Him out to be the tribal god of the fanciful tales of a self glorifying history.
God is good when He is disassociated with the obviously evil god of the Old Testament. Refusing to do that, and insisting on supporting the claims that God must be accurately depicted in the OT, and then pronouncing it good, is destructive to morality.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Since you seem to be struggling with your beliefs,. . .

I struggle every single day with my beliefs, and I think it a little odd that you would understand that as being a bad thing. I believe in struggle and constantly trying to move forward and not to relax and to be content with what we understood yesterday.
You give no evidence that the god of the Old Testament is the God and Father of Jesus. You just make the claim as if it is self evident. I understand that the Apostles wanted to evangelize the Jews, so in order to have access to the Temple and the various synagogues, they had to refrain from stirring up animosity against them. They would have been low key for the sake of the mission. When pressed hard and pinned down, they would give some sort of acknowledgment that they shared the faith and same god as them. You should keep in mind that Abraham deceived the Pharaoh about the status of his wife when he saw his life in danger. Human frailty comes into play.
Peter told the gathered men for Pentecost that they killed their Messiah. There is a connection between a character in the stories and lore of the people who we normally associate with what we call today (among Christians) the Old Testament. I am sure that there were oral traditions and intertestamental writings in that day that spoke plenty of David, outside of the canon. Then Peter says that the future Messiah, Jesus, was in the council which made the decisions that ended up with what we find happening in regards to Jesus in the Gospels. So there were plans and relationships going on behind the scenes that the OT was not privy to and were only revealed when Peter was later filled with the Spirit and spoke as a prophet.
Later on Paul, when he had made as much use as he could from the synagogues, dropped all pretense of giving any lip service to the old notions of who God really was. He regarded the apparitions claiming to be god in the past, as being only angels.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

My theology is as flawed as yours. God is in the image of the Bible, His word. Christ IS the Living Word in perfection. The Bible is an image.

I do not believe my theology is as flawed as yours because there is a fundamental difference which is that I believe in and understand and make use of another aspect of the word which goes beyond the mere letters on a page. The Holy Spirit is given to those who seek God in the name of Jesus, to understand the principles behind those words. There is an understanding that is beyond our own that we catch a glimpse of as it passes by and though we do not get it all, we know it is true.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["Give an example from the Bible. I can only speak to a specific set of verses."]

It's a severe handicap for your 'debate'-options, if you only can relate to the self-contained system, you try to prove by itself (which probably is the reason for your posts to manifest as sermons).

Quote: ["The OT God and the NT God are the same. Jesus is His Son from the trinity. There are three persons in this reality that represent the three natures of God outside this reality. This view unites Modalism and the trinitarian viewpoint. One God, three Persons."]

As I have said elsewhere, the original trigunic model (which the christian trinity is a twisted version of), has some sensible points. After the christian hijacking of it, it lost most of that meaning.

Quote: ["Science provides concepts for us to match to what the Bible says. The concepts are the same with updated language."]

If you had manifested a better understanding of science yourself, such an argument would be more convincing. As it stands now, it's just another twisted adaption to 'prove' a predetermined answer.

Quote: ["As God uses light to represent enlightenment and what we see around us, this duality of light comes together to make matter in our view of physics. We see a narrow band of this light. The ocean of light comprises the entire universe. All particles have an associated wave. Light is both a particle and a wave. This light reflects to generate the physical world in an image."]

This has absolutely nothing to do with science. Light is photons, belonging to a category of particles called 'transmittors'. Transmittors aren't the basis of the mass of cosmos (that is quarks), neither is the standard 'matter' experience made from photons (but from the repelling of same-polarized electro-magnetic fields).

Quote: ["We are 'in' the image of God. Look in a mirror and you see yourself 'in' an image. The image of you in the mirror is not real, it is a reflection. The image of you here on earth is only an image of where God is. God is outside this image, above in dimensions. As above, so below. He operates through the three persons of the trinity. We are in an image and no harm can come to us in the image. We can only experience consciousness in our vehicle (Body). You are not your body. It is a bio-mechanical suit you wear to experience the image. We will get a new body when we transcend this reality by learning love. This is the Hindu avatar. The movie was based on this ancient truth."]

Apparntly the pseudo-science is left now, and it's back to the usual intricate guesses and speculations.

Quote: ["God is not pleased when we worship idols. Idols are matter devoid of consciousness (Spirit). God refuses to be represented by matter. Animals have a soul, but not spirit. God refuses to be represented by animals. God is not in this image. We are in the image. God is in the image only by His trinity of persons. They represent His nature."]

More mythology.

Quote: ["Read my description of the Trinity HERE."]

Why? Your former references turned out to be repetitions of what you say in the initial texts.

Quote: [I mention idols because God told man not to worship idols. Many of the nations that were destroyed worshiped matter and/or animals as the downfall. We seem to do the same with all our material goods. The Bible is specific on this point."]

And so.....the bible can be as 'specific' as it wants. It doesn't make it true.

Quote: ["Humans have a soul and a spirit. This gives us the ability to reason, create and choose."]

Or it's because complexity has reached a level of self-organization.

Quote: ["We have the three natures of God in us."]

If you had used the original tri-gunic model, this would have made some sense. It doesn't in your version.

Quote: ["If we use this nature for evil, we are judged."]

Faith-based postulate.

Quote: ["Light (particle/infinity of choice), Son (force/wave/creative instinct), and Spirit (Consciousness/NOUS). We are in the image as matter created by both particle and wave (Father and son)."]

From a standard science perspective: Pure non-sense.

Quote: ["The soul is our animal nature that is driven by the intellect (Spirit). We have the choice to overcome the soul (animal nature) with the spirit. We can also live by the animal nature in aggression to others. The law of nature is eat or be eaten."]

So genesis 2 'explains' the character of cosmos. Genesis 2 then needs verification first.

Quote: ["The law of God is love."]

The law of 'god' is evil, according to OT.

Quote: ["We are here to learn."]

A speculation.

Quote: [After the education, we gain love and move on. If not, we fail. God provides all the resources (matter) we need to survive and thrive in love toward others. What we take for ourselves then becomes our judgment by the law of nature. We reap what we sow. The object is to gain union with the Spirit and transcend by producing fruit in the tree above. We are the roots below. This is the tree of life. If you read the rest of the thread,"]

Postulates.

Quote: ["I have already covered this."]

To your own satisfaction. It's questionable how many will agree to any of your 'expanations' at all.

Quote: ["Since you seem to be struggling with your beliefs, I am more than happy to assist you any way I can. I'm not in this for myself. My theology is as flawed as yours. God is in the image of the Bible, His word. Christ IS the Living Word in perfection. The Bible is an image. If your hands are dirty, the image will appear that way as well. Clean your hands and the mirror is clean."]

Personally I have some sympathy and understanding for jmdewey's version of the bible. I don't think you have anything to offer him to improve it.

Quote: ["We live by faith, not fact."]

Then why do you go to such lengths in creating a pseudo-science?

Quote: ["We all need to think for ourselves."]

Which means that the need of preachers isn't very great, whereas that which stimulates thinking should be encouraged. For once I agree with you.



Quote: ["This will be my last/last post"]

Seeing is believing.

Your post is an attack on me and not a statement for or against the Goodness of God. Bias is a thing to be avoided. There is a good book called Verbal Judo written by George Thompson. 90% of law enforcement in America is required to read this book. Thompson says that we should always "Speak for the other person in the manner in which they should be speaking for themselves." His main point in the book is that bias, condescension and anger against others can only build ground for the other person to stand against you. If you want to communicate effectively, bias needs to be eliminated. Speak for the person instead of against. This creates a high ground that cannot be overcome by the other person. Love demands that we honor each other in our conduct.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

You wrote:

["Facing truth is never fun."]

Nevertheless I recommend you to try it some time.

Sure. You are entirely correct. What I meant by the statement was this: We cannot know the true theology apart from the Living Word, and as you state, the Holy Spirit. This is true. We need to be taught on an individual basis and, as the Bible says, lean not upon our own understanding. I think you are I are here for that reason. We are searching for different perspectives that can be used by the spirit to show us truth. I am convinced that we need to put our beliefs to the test and cling to what is good. You and I are most likely on the same page in this.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

My theology is as flawed as yours. God is in the image of the Bible, His word. Christ IS the Living Word in perfection. The Bible is an image.

I do not believe my theology is as flawed as yours because there is a fundamental difference which is that I believe in and understand and make use of another aspect of the word which goes beyond the mere letters on a page. The Holy Spirit is given to those who seek God in the name of Jesus, to understand the principles behind those words. There is an understanding that is beyond our own that we catch a glimpse of as it passes by and though we do not get it all, we know it is true.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


On the contrary.

There is no "subject of God" absent the "subject of human".


From the Billions of species in our planet alone, why is the human the only one that needs to "follow god's will"?
Why is the human species the only one that has religions?


Threads like these, I call "mental masturbation".

You see, "good" and "bad" are human concepts.
If there is a God, he/she won't be any of it (nor good, or bad).

Peace

reply to post by bogomil

As I have said elsewhere, the original trigunic model (which the christian trinity is a twisted version of), has some sensible points. After the christian hijacking of it, it lost most of that meaning.

I take both modalism and the trinitary view as the same when the excluded middle is considered. God is not present in this reality. We are His image and He manifests His three persons in this image. The work together to create reality and enlighten. The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot comprehend. We are living in a dimly lit reality. I would encourage you to go back and look at the Buddhist view at the end of the post. He points straight toward the same understanding and represents the Christian view 500 years early. Christ fulfills this as He represents enlightenment and the fulfillment of the law in total.

If you had manifested a better understanding of science yourself, such an argument would be more convincing. As it stands now, it's just another twisted adaption to 'prove' a predetermined answer.

reply to post by bogomil


Perhaps a refresher in quantum entanglement, dimensions and wave function is in order. I cannot speak for your understanding, but I assure you, my understanding matches what we currently know from commonly held theory.

Perhaps a spiritual enema is more accurate. Humans are endowed with spirit. This give them NOUS. Animals do not have NOUS.

Originally posted by Sator
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

On the contrary.

There is no "subject of God" absent the "subject of human".


From the Billions of species in our planet alone, why is the human the only one that needs to "follow god's will"?
Why is the human species the only one that has religions?


Threads like these, I call "mental masturbation".

You see, "good" and "bad" are human concepts.
If there is a God, he/she won't be any of it (nor good, or bad).

Peace

reply to post by bogomil

This has absolutely nothing to do with science. Light is photons, belonging to a category of particles called 'transmittors'. Transmittors aren't the basis of the mass of cosmos (that is quarks), neither is the standard 'matter' experience made from photons (but from the repelling of same-polarized electro-magnetic fields).

Please provide me one link to a credible physicist that knows how particles slow down and gain mass to form matter. This is the 8 billion dollar question and why the CERN project is currently being undertaken. We are in the dark when it comes to physics. We have ever-changing theories. That's it. The more we understand, the closer it gets to the simple description in the Bible. God is good.

Quote: ["Light (particle/infinity of choice), Son (force/wave/creative instinct), and Spirit (Consciousness/NOUS). We are in the image as matter created by both particle and wave (Father and son)."]

From a standard science perspective: Pure non-sense.

Not at all. God is infinity and all possibility at rest. We are in the third dimension. We move in the fourth dimension of time. The fifth dimension is indeterminate probability. This means it is yet to be determined. For chaos to be divided into choice, indeterminate probability is moved to a determined choice. The observer collapses the wave function and makes a choice, drawing a possibility form the infinity of possibility at rest. This changes reality toward a different outcome.

God has the ability to draw the future into the past for us to see as it passes. He can work both directions. We can only draw the past into the future by selecting better choices than the last choices we previously made. This is our time machine to change our future past as it passes us by again. We make a new choice, throw it into the future and then watch it pass by as a new outcome in our new past. This is called repentance. We turn from our previously poor choice. God can turn our future into our past so we can learn from it. He is outside the fourth dimension looking in as we would look at the 2nd dimension on a piece of paper.

As you ask yourself how I know all this, the answer is simple: I have doubted and been a skeptic my entire life. I simply did the work to answer my own questions. This is where I am today. Here is a good view of what I just said by another perspective.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

You wrote:

["Give an example from the Bible. I can only speak to a specific set of verses."]

It's a severe handicap for your 'debate'-options, if you only can relate to the self-contained system, you try to prove by itself (which probably is the reason for your posts to manifest as sermons).

Quote: ["The OT God and the NT God are the same. Jesus is His Son from the trinity. There are three persons in this reality that represent the three natures of God outside this reality. This view unites Modalism and the trinitarian viewpoint. One God, three Persons."]

As I have said elsewhere, the original trigunic model (which the christian trinity is a twisted version of), has some sensible points. After the christian hijacking of it, it lost most of that meaning.

Quote: ["Science provides concepts for us to match to what the Bible says. The concepts are the same with updated language."]

If you had manifested a better understanding of science yourself, such an argument would be more convincing. As it stands now, it's just another twisted adaption to 'prove' a predetermined answer.

Quote: ["As God uses light to represent enlightenment and what we see around us, this duality of light comes together to make matter in our view of physics. We see a narrow band of this light. The ocean of light comprises the entire universe. All particles have an associated wave. Light is both a particle and a wave. This light reflects to generate the physical world in an image."]

This has absolutely nothing to do with science. Light is photons, belonging to a category of particles called 'transmittors'. Transmittors aren't the basis of the mass of cosmos (that is quarks), neither is the standard 'matter' experience made from photons (but from the repelling of same-polarized electro-magnetic fields).

Quote: ["We are 'in' the image of God. Look in a mirror and you see yourself 'in' an image. The image of you in the mirror is not real, it is a reflection. The image of you here on earth is only an image of where God is. God is outside this image, above in dimensions. As above, so below. He operates through the three persons of the trinity. We are in an image and no harm can come to us in the image. We can only experience consciousness in our vehicle (Body). You are not your body. It is a bio-mechanical suit you wear to experience the image. We will get a new body when we transcend this reality by learning love. This is the Hindu avatar. The movie was based on this ancient truth."]

Apparntly the pseudo-science is left now, and it's back to the usual intricate guesses and speculations.

Quote: ["God is not pleased when we worship idols. Idols are matter devoid of consciousness (Spirit). God refuses to be represented by matter. Animals have a soul, but not spirit. God refuses to be represented by animals. God is not in this image. We are in the image. God is in the image only by His trinity of persons. They represent His nature."]

More mythology.

Quote: ["Read my description of the Trinity HERE."]

Why? Your former references turned out to be repetitions of what you say in the initial texts.

Quote: [I mention idols because God told man not to worship idols. Many of the nations that were destroyed worshiped matter and/or animals as the downfall. We seem to do the same with all our material goods. The Bible is specific on this point."]

And so.....the bible can be as 'specific' as it wants. It doesn't make it true.

Quote: ["Humans have a soul and a spirit. This gives us the ability to reason, create and choose."]

Or it's because complexity has reached a level of self-organization.

Quote: ["We have the three natures of God in us."]

If you had used the original tri-gunic model, this would have made some sense. It doesn't in your version.

Quote: ["If we use this nature for evil, we are judged."]

Faith-based postulate.

Quote: ["Light (particle/infinity of choice), Son (force/wave/creative instinct), and Spirit (Consciousness/NOUS). We are in the image as matter created by both particle and wave (Father and son)."]

From a standard science perspective: Pure non-sense.

Quote: ["The soul is our animal nature that is driven by the intellect (Spirit). We have the choice to overcome the soul (animal nature) with the spirit. We can also live by the animal nature in aggression to others. The law of nature is eat or be eaten."]

So genesis 2 'explains' the character of cosmos. Genesis 2 then needs verification first.

Quote: ["The law of God is love."]

The law of 'god' is evil, according to OT.

Quote: ["We are here to learn."]

A speculation.

Quote: [After the education, we gain love and move on. If not, we fail. God provides all the resources (matter) we need to survive and thrive in love toward others. What we take for ourselves then becomes our judgment by the law of nature. We reap what we sow. The object is to gain union with the Spirit and transcend by producing fruit in the tree above. We are the roots below. This is the tree of life. If you read the rest of the thread,"]

Postulates.

Quote: ["I have already covered this."]

To your own satisfaction. It's questionable how many will agree to any of your 'expanations' at all.

Quote: ["Since you seem to be struggling with your beliefs, I am more than happy to assist you any way I can. I'm not in this for myself. My theology is as flawed as yours. God is in the image of the Bible, His word. Christ IS the Living Word in perfection. The Bible is an image. If your hands are dirty, the image will appear that way as well. Clean your hands and the mirror is clean."]

Personally I have some sympathy and understanding for jmdewey's version of the bible. I don't think you have anything to offer him to improve it.

Quote: ["We live by faith, not fact."]

Then why do you go to such lengths in creating a pseudo-science?

Quote: ["We all need to think for ourselves."]

Which means that the need of preachers isn't very great, whereas that which stimulates thinking should be encouraged. For once I agree with you.



Quote: ["This will be my last/last post"]

Seeing is believing.

edit on 7-7-2011 by bogomil because: spelling