Human Civilization, page 2

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reply posted on 3-7-2011 @ 06:35 AM by justwokeup

reply to post by MrAtomicspace

The first part of your post is erroneous, germany was never in a position to take on the whole world and win. The fact they knew they couldn't is why they signed a non aggression pact with the russians, despite despising them.

It was the isolationist stance of the US that allowed it. No sane German would have contemplated taking on Britain, USA and Russia simultaneously. The gamble was for a quick victory in France, a negotiated settlement with Britain and then with hands untied, a push to the east.

That gamble failed and the die was cast.

On the technology side, Hitlers meddling in production and his obsession with wonder weapons benefitted the allies in the long run. The allied approach was more conservative but better organised and ultimately more successful. Theres no point of a wonder design if you cant manufacture it in useful quantity (a lesson the west has forgotten).

However, I fully endorse the 2nd point of your article. With a noble goal (or a compelling ignoble one) nations and groups of nations can accomplish anything. The amounts of money don't even necessarily need to be huge. It just needs leadership and there isn't any, theres not one single admirable or inspiring leader in the western world at the moment. We could be on mars now if there was some leadership.

reply posted on 3-7-2011 @ 07:19 AM by yakuzakid

Completely agree with the OP.

Hopefully 2012 will be the massive conciousness shift the world needs to kickstart this revolution and get off this doomed rock for good.

reply posted on 3-7-2011 @ 12:47 PM by MrAtomicspace

Originally posted by justwokeup

The first part of your post is erroneous, germany was never in a position to take on the whole world and win. The fact they knew they couldn't is why they signed a non aggression pact with the russians, despite despising them...

They definately had the potential to. Far more superior than any other nation of the time in terms of technology and military at least. If it were not for strategical mistakes and possible inside sabotages (probably the nuclear program), they just might have won.

Anyway what really matters is that they are a good example of a hard working nation with goals that go further than their pockets.

reply posted on 3-7-2011 @ 01:57 PM by ZeroKnowledge

reply to post by MrAtomicspace

Yes we are different, that doesn't mean we cannot work together for a greater purpose, we have the potential to, why waste it?! In my neighborhood people are actually united, everyone helps each other and has a strong sense of collaboration in benefit of the community.

This is excellent. But helping each out is not enrolling all for the same cause. Will you be able to gather all the people in your neighborhood to build a children game yard? Good purpose, i am sure that all people are descent folk but you will not be able. Because this does not want, this lives too far from the area to enjoy it ,this would rather go fishing, this does not have kids so there is no point, this claims that he lives close and noise will interfere and remaining half do not understand while only them should work if everyone will be able to use it.
Just an example. But i hope you will see what i try to say. We are all people and thus ca live in close social groups and help each other and treat each other good - but we are not colony of ants blindly doing what is good for the colony. For good and bad. We all have tiny different personal interests and these huge powefull "common good" utopias keep breaking against multitude of tiny sparkles of individualism.

reply posted on 3-7-2011 @ 02:10 PM by CosmosKid

I don't know, the whole conept is kind of sketchy! Human and Civilization pretty much cancel each other out. Where would we be if the Romans hadn't destroyed the Library at Alexandria? What would the world be like if the "Dark Ages" had never taken place? How can you say the Germans "almost won" WWII when they knew almost from the beginning that they could never actually achieve a military victory? Sure, they came up with SOME technical innovations, but how did that work out for them in the end? or for the Japanese for that matter? They could not hold onto what they achieved via military action, and consecquently, lost the "war". But, I don't think that has anything to do with the Germans per se, but everything to do with the National Socialist Party!

edit on 3-7-2011 by CosmosKid because: spelling

reply posted on 3-7-2011 @ 02:32 PM by Lynda101

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

Bit low perhaps in faith in human nature? I have noticed over the years in England, which is a very diverse country now, it has moved from a suspicious place to a pretty well integrated land to live in., if they think its a good cause, whoever they are they will often give and give again or help out. I have helped in a charity on and off and people who have nothing to do with the charity will come and help etc. Also even if not coming they mostly cheer you on, wish you well and often ask how it went.

I believe we were geared mentally to help because when you do, you get an inner warm glow.

reply posted on 3-7-2011 @ 03:11 PM by ZeroKnowledge

reply to post by Lynda101

Bit low perhaps in faith in human nature? I have noticed over the years in England, which is a very diverse country now, it has moved from a suspicious place to a pretty well integrated land to live in., if they think its a good cause, whoever they are they will often give and give again or help out. I have helped in a charity on and off and people who have nothing to do with the charity will come and help etc. Also even if not coming they mostly cheer you on, wish you well and often ask how it went. I believe we were geared mentally to help because when you do, you get an inner warm glow.

Again, there is a huge difference between helping individual Joe and helping an un-existing "common cause" beast.
Charity exists for purpose of charity. Thanks God, there are multitude of individuals willing to help other individuals. You will not find charity organization running space exploration projects though. Which is what our civilization needs,for example.
Edit:
Oh, and as for low faith in Human nature - i think that being realistic is not a fault. Take any history book and among magnificent buildings,noble deeds,mountains of corpses and dirty political games you will see what it is all about and what bastards waved "common cause" flags. Pink or black glasses are equally bad. We are what we are. And i will repeat - we are not ants.

edit on 3-7-2011 by ZeroKnowledge because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 3-7-2011 @ 04:09 PM by MrAtomicspace

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

I disagree. As I mentioned the Germans are a good example of working together for the greater good.
Ideas such as it's impossible, wrong, and unnatural are what's preventing us! I think they are all excuses..

We CAN do something big if we work together, only once we set our minds on it and stop doubting and finding excuses!

reply posted on 3-7-2011 @ 04:15 PM by MrAtomicspace

Originally posted by CosmosKid
How can you say the Germans "almost won" WWII when they knew almost from the beginning that they could never actually achieve a military victory? Sure, they came up with SOME technical innovations, but how did that work out for them in the end

They never went to war thinking they wouldn't win. Sure people might have had doubts, but they knew it was possible! I have mentioned this over and over... during that period they were superior to any other nation, and had the means and power to challenge the world. They took France in a week! And had Britain and Russia on their heels. Lucky for us they were unfortunate which was the reason they lost.

Regarding the technical innovations, they had A LOT, majority of those might still be secret or destroyed by Germans near the end. And these innovations worked out pretty good for the rest of us in the end..

edit on 3-7-2011 by MrAtomicspace because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 4-7-2011 @ 07:06 AM by Lynda101

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by Lynda101

]
Again, there is a huge difference between helping individual Joe and helping an un-existing "common cause" beast.
Charity exists for purpose of charity. Thanks God, there are multitude of individuals willing to help other individuals. You will not find charity organization running space exploration projects though. Which is what our civilization needs,for example.
Edit:
Oh, and as for low faith in Human nature - i think that being realistic is not a fault. Take any history book and among magnificent buildings,noble deeds,mountains of corpses and dirty political games you will see what it is all about and what bastards waved "common cause" flags. Pink or black glasses are equally bad. We are what we are. And i will repeat - we are not ants.

edit on 3-7-2011 by ZeroKnowledge because: (no reason given)

The fact that humans invented the act of charity at all, means that the ability to gather to help others for no financial reward or selfish benefit exists in huge quantities within the human character. You don't just gain the success of a single project with taking part in helping, you meet people, make new friends expand your life.

Politicians and Institutions all fly under the "common cause" flag as you so aptly put it but we all know that is the abominable working with the abominable and they fortunately keep to themselves. If you look at the UK Government at the moment from their backgrounds they are like peas in a limited pod.

Whether its a country, institutions or some people acting out to deliberately harm others, as with Germany bombing Coventry and us bombing Dresden, we have that capacity to apologise, shake hands and cooperate with each other to move on to mutually beneficial projects. We will have to beg to differ though because your outlook on life seems far more pessimistic concerning the human spirit than mine. Yes I see whats going on around me politically but that's another world, in the international wider world one lives in its very different and happier place.

reply posted on 4-7-2011 @ 01:28 PM by ZeroKnowledge

reply to post by MrAtomicspace

I disagree. As I mentioned the Germans are a good example of working together for the greater good. Ideas such as it's impossible, wrong, and unnatural are what's preventing us! I think they are all excuses..

What greater good Germans did working together in 1930s-early 1940s?Starting World War 2 that ended with scores of dead and torn Germany?
This is becoming pointless. You think you are right even though history numerously proved those approaches to be false and more important deadly and devastating. And yet you are willing to wave it all away. Well, listen to my rare doom and gloom prophecy - your Utopia will end as the rest. You cannot design a house without acknowledging what creatures will live inside. But you want to go ahead - well ,try to build another anthill for people. I really pity all the blood that will be spilled ,again in vain.

reply posted on 4-7-2011 @ 01:41 PM by ZeroKnowledge

reply to post by Lynda101

We will have to beg to differ though because your outlook on life seems far more pessimistic concerning the human spirit than mine.

Might be the case. I hope that i am wrong.

reply posted on 4-7-2011 @ 04:44 PM by MrAtomicspace

What greater good Germans did working together in 1930s-early 1940s?Starting World War 2 that ended with scores of dead and torn Germany?
This is becoming pointless. You think you are right even though history numerously proved those approaches to be false and more important deadly and devastating. And yet you are willing to wave it all away. Well, listen to my rare doom and gloom prophecy - your Utopia will end as the rest. You cannot design a house without acknowledging what creatures will live inside. But you want to go ahead - well ,try to build another anthill for people. I really pity all the blood that will be spilled ,again in vain.

It was a greater good in their context, not for us. They managed to work together as a nation to try and achieve supremacy, that was their goal. Whether it was good or bad is a different story, the point is they did work together and when they lost they were able to rebuild at an amazing pace, faster than France did from WWI and WWII where it didn't even lose! Of course other nations aided it's recovery.

You are not getting my point, all I am saying is we as a society have the potential to solve all problems. But it's a wasted potential. And we can do this as a diverse society! But people will not work together if it's not in their IMMEDIATE interest.

We are still too primitive to aim so high... but there will come a time (hopefully) when what I am saying will be the daily reality. But we still have to discover fire and the wheel before getting there.

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