Education, Personal responsibility, and the fall of modern society, page 2

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reply posted on 9-7-2011 @ 09:48 PM by watcher3339

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by watcher3339

They are government but they are local: not federal.

What is your point? Public education is a state and local matter, and there is no where in any of my posts where I have indicated it was a federal matter.

Do you really mean to imply that you think the people can't be trusted to govern themselves?

I have not only made such an implication, your inference is just more disingenuousness. I am long on record in this site for being a tireless advocate of self government. Try again.

Because school boards is pretty much the most basic example of people governing themselves in their area as they see fit.

Ending compulsory education legislation and giving back to parents the autonomy they rightfully own to begin with is THE basic example of people governing themselves as they see fit.

But corporations cut it for you?

Corporations are public entities chartered into existence, and are not private. Try again.

Oh Lord.
Regarding the implication: first you say you "not only implied" then you say you advocate self governence. Is there a typo there or would you care to clarify that contradiction?
I have mixed feelings on compulsary education. But what I believe is right in practice (school of some kind) is different than believing in a government that would require compulsary education. If your issue is that you hate that kids are appropriated from their parents. I can accept that. That is different than an attack on the Public School System. Which, if you actually read my post I simply say I am tired of seeing blamed for so much. You appear to have taken this rather personally. Your mood status indicates moody. I would have to agree with you on that.
Given your rather erudite vocabulary in this and other threads I can't imagine that your condescending attitude in your responses is accidental. You've got a lot of stars and flags here. You've been here way longer than I have. But you accuse me of being disingenuous, and ask if I really need things explained to me. Well, I think either you parse words with semantic games or lack the clarity that I would have anticipated from a self proclaimed writer with a large stack of words at his command.
I would have been happy to enter into a serious conversation with you but if you are just going to be obnoxiously cranky I don't see much point.
You are entitled to your opinions. I suspect I disagree with a number of them.
So be it.

reply posted on 9-7-2011 @ 11:39 PM by Jean Paul Zodeaux

reply to post by watcher3339

Regarding the implication: first you say you "not only implied" then you say you advocate self governence. Is there a typo there or would you care to clarify that contradiction?

It was a typo, and ironically had just edited it right before you posted, or as you were posting.

I have mixed feelings on compulsary education. But what I believe is right in practice (school of some kind) is different than believing in a government that would require compulsary education. If your issue is that you hate that kids are appropriated from their parents. I can accept that. That is different than an attack on the Public School System. Which, if you actually read my post I simply say I am tired of seeing blamed for so much.

Private schools are schools of some kind. You ascribing "hate" to my words is your inference, and not my implication. I strongly oppose government intrusion, particularly on what are unalienable rights. Parenting is an unalienable right. However, this appropriation - as you put it - of kids from their parents is only a part of my problem with public education. The indoctrination that goes on in public schools is beyond sickening. When government uses tax dollars to fund propaganda and indoctrination that undermines unalienable rights in favor of "civil rights" and teaches children that the Constitutional republic of which they are expected to give a pledge of an allegiance to (rather the flag, but the point is the same), is really a democracy, leading these future adults to believe that the majority has a right to trample all over individuals rights if they just simply vote for it, this is a very serious problem.

Children are taught that "law is governmental social control" and then taught about revolutions without a hint of irony. Public schools have now infamously pasted up a plethora of "just say no" posters to perpetuate a failed drug war, while nurses stand in between these "just say no" posters making sure certain students have taken their SSRI's. You would be hard pressed to point to many, if any, private schools that make their students walk through metal detectors before entering. These are just a very few of the very real problems that have come with public education.

You appear to have taken this rather personally. Your mood status indicates moody. I would have to agree with you on that. Given your rather erudite vocabulary in this and other threads I can't imagine that your condescending attitude in your responses is accidental.

You seem intent on ignoring my assertion that blame is irrelevant, and do not seem to understand that I certainly do take exception to someone who quotes my post in its entirety and then begins by addressing a point I did not make. I do not blame, I hold accountable. The public school system has a lot to account for.

I would have been happy to enter into a serious conversation with you but if you are just going to be obnoxiously cranky I don't see much point. You are entitled to your opinions. I suspect I disagree with a number of them.

If you want to enter into a serious conversation, perhaps you can consider refraining getting personal with all the flags and star nonsense. That has nothing at all to do with this thread, nor my opinions on public education. If you want to have a serious conversation then have one. Leave the personal stuff out of it.

reply posted on 10-7-2011 @ 08:17 AM by grapeian

reply to post by Lono1

I had been taking IB Economics when I was attending an American International school, where we had an American economics teacher.
He taught us about the federal reserve, what federal reserves usually contains and he also discussed with us in class, the immensely large debt that the US has (especially to China), among a vast amount of other "real" issues in this world economically and in other areas.

Unfortunately I only had this teacher for 1 year of the 2 year curriculum, it would have been a very strong fundamental introduction to a subject that is more exciting and interesting, than what it gets credit for.

The fact that I was attending an Americanized International school with an American Economics teacher had another impact on my learning, than what a regular High School student with an American teacher has, I do not know.
I don't want to make assumptions, because frankly I do not know the correct answer and I believe it would be a generalization.

All I can say is: There is hope for today's youth, some more than others - but there is hope!
Do not be demoralized with the general population, there has always been those who believe everything they are told by authority and those who have their own opinions, regardless of what other people try to convince them.

Keep your head up!

Peace

edit on 10-7-2011 by grapeian because: deleting a duplicated word

reply posted on 10-7-2011 @ 12:30 PM by watcher3339

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

While you have some interesting points. The just say no and SSRI is an excellent ironic observation, I still feel that you are missing my point, perhaps because you don't understand the frame of reference I come from, or perhaps because you just want to. The reference to your stars and flags is hardly "my personal stuff". Instead, it was an acknowledgment that over the course of time many here have found your words to be worthwhile and so I was less inclined to simply dismiss you.

Your experience of public schools (from what you have posted in this thread) is different than my own. Very different.
Therefore, I do not agree with you.

I have tried to be civil. I have tried to be openminded. And yes, that is my personal stuff and I believe such goes hand in hand with the whole personal responsibility aspect of the thread itself. You seem far more interested in baiting and insisting that I have somehow taken your entire post and attempted to misrepresent it, despite that fact that by quoting the whole thing (which you also objected to) I have really made that rather impossible. You have remained condescending throughout. You don't know my experiences or credentials and I don't know yours. And, I suspect that at this point neither of us cares.

It was at the point of your post in this thread that I felt inclined to respond that the Public Schools are too often and easily blamed for the ills of our country. I stand by both that connection to your words and my point of view. You seem like a last word kind of guy. Have at. I will not be responding. Not because I can't but because I feel that either we are sliding past each other without traction or you are cranky. Either way it will be pointless.

Have a lovely day. And, despite our rather disjointed, unproductive, and basically unpleasant interaction: I do actually mean it.

reply posted on 12-7-2011 @ 09:30 PM by Lono1

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Lono1

While I agree with you that academic institutions have become a confidence game, the belief that these institutions are failing people because they have not done enough to indoctrinate them on the presumed value of "fractional reserve banking", or the foolishly presumed value of a "Federal Reserve System", or "credit default swaps", or ""mortgage backed securities", or "derivatives" or "predatory lending" is disheartening.

That was not my intent. I was simply showing that there are issues that the public school system has no business teaching our children, and we need to take responsibility and do it ourselves. These institutions are failing because they teach values contrary to our own, not because of the lack of content. We are in agreement, not at ends...

Of course, the very fact you used phrases such as "predatory lending" or even mortgage backed securities" or "credit default swaps" suggests that you are certainly no advocate of these con games, but to think teaching these con games in academia will some how help people navigate the turbulent waters of a closed economic system misses the point.

Again, that was NOT my point at all...you and I are on the same page.

As far as public academic institutions go, it is beyond folly to believe that government can be trusted to have a monopoly on education and avoid using that monopoly to indoctrinate. Let's not fix what cannot be broken. Let us instead let the free and unregulated market handle academia, and let government go back to the business of protecting individual rights.

Again, we are in agreement, not at a discourse. The entire point was to not trust the government to do anything contrary to its own best interests.

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