We know who you are "And :wow: do we have news for you:

Think of this... could any of this be true or are we just full of BS?
It is indeed easy to make a quick judgement and move on, move so fast to
the next subject, another thread... so fast that you almost don't feel the insecurity,
the little doubt inside you... what if the are right, what of they speak the truth?
You can make the noise inside louder, so that you can't almost hear your heart
resonating in perfect harmony with the flow and the source of our words.
You may even distort yourself so that you won't even notice the seed now planted in you.
A seed nourished from who you truly are.

How fast and how far you run won't change the fact of who you are
Won't change the flower growing from inside you
Won't change our helping hands still reaching

Mirror

Love and respect

reply to post by yets777

ye well u sayd it yourself ,
seek balance ,
now define it to me,
bc we are saying the same thing here

First, Jean59 made no comment about balance. Jean59 commented about discarding fear, doubt, and the darkness in favor of "love". Walking the path of the light, and the like. That is not a balance.

Without fear we have no heed of caution. If people are not cautious then we walk into danger. Fear is a base human emotion. One of the most important. One who is completely fearless is also entirely foolish. They lose the ability to discern danger.

Doubt, additionally, is an extremely beneficial cognitive response. To doubt something means that you are critically analyzing it, searching for holes and mistakes in the framework. Which is what I did with Jean59's opening post. I had doubts about the original message, so I studied it and tried to figure out why I doubted it. I found out why, and outlined those things in my reply.

only you wanted to be the only right one ,
so you had to put it into another context,
and present it as the truth,

What I said, and what Jean59 espoused are two different philosophies. So, I could not have taken what was said and "put it into another context", because the two messages are not the same. Wanting to be right is also of no importance to me.

I have not started a thread proclaiming "The Ultimate Truth" because I do not care to. Instead, I see a fallacy, and a fault in Jean59's thread. So, I use my ability to disagree to tell Jean59 that I disagree with their theory, for the reasons I explained.

now proof me you are 100 % sure about what uve just sayd

Balance and moderation objective truths.

For instance: over-eating (not moderating food consumption) without equal dieting (balancing the food intake with exercise) will result in the gain of fat, the development of obesity, and may eventually lead to death. However, if we apply balance (a dietary regiment) and moderation (not over-eating) then we find that the human body stays slim, healthy, and powerful. This is a many-fold goodness too. With health and exercise comes mental stimulation, increased awareness of sensory perception, longer lives, and the ability to interact with, and maintain, relations of all sorts with people, and nature.

Not convinced? OK. Let us explore psychology for a moment. Stress is a contributor to many psychological illnesses. The unenlightened may say (as Jean59 did) that something like stress needs to be removed for the spiritual wholeness to be achieved. This may appear to be a proper approach. However, let us explore what really happens:

If we do not moderate stress, by completely removing it, then we lose something vital: the ability to discern if we have fallen off course in achieving our goals and initiatives. Stress is a situation response. It notifies us that something is not going according to plan. By removing stress altogether, instead of moderating it, we lose the ability to judge the exact nature of a situation.

To balance stress we partake of joyous activities. Things which arouse us, and elate us. If we do not allow for the balance between contentment and stress then we become lost in a bacchanalian wilderness. Indulging every desire we have, endlessly, without care of the real-world responsibilities, which we were capable of stress, we would remember need to be completed.

Balance, and moderation. Effective ways of living.

did u get it from a book,?
has it been confirmed by angels,?

I do not need a book, nor angels. I need only the ability to experiment and perceive the results for myself. Apply the balance/moderation approach to eating and dieting for yourself. For one month eat without concern about fullness, and do not diet to balance what you eat. Tell me how beneficial that lifestyle is.

how do you know you are right and have the right to call us wrong

Evidence. Concrete evidence which can be tested and re-tested. "Love everyone, and reality will get better" does not work. It is a duck-billed platitude. I can call it wrong, as it is not possible for all of the human species to get together under one banner. How do I know?

(a) The hostility you present to me at seeing Jean59's message denied
(b) Your belief in a monotheistic "God" discarding pagan, and atheistic beliefs
(c) Your refusal to accept scientific grounding, ostracizing the thinking community

Those are some of the reasons (for you, alone) which let me know that the entire human race could never be united under "love".

do u believe a soul is able to connect to god?
or do u believe he does not care for the ones who seek him?

No, I do not believe in God, nor a creator. I believe in Universal Forces, cosmic laws, science, mathematics, and conscious-energy. I believe in evolutionary theory as the party responsible for my existence, and the same for my ability to experience mystical moments. God is not necessary. Creation was not needed. Life was, life is, and life will continue to be without God's involvement.

if you have found balance , u have found the way god intented for you ?
not?

God intended nothing for me. I make my own way, follow my own path, make my own decisions, and am accountable for my own actions. The only intentions are those which I set for myself, by myself.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

nicely said, expressing your thoughts in a clear and straightforward manner. I do not have to agree with you to be able to follow your thinking. This is what i was trying to tell the OP. It is important to use clear language, and expand upon statements so people can understand.
Thanks for your post. I disagree about God - but that is my own personal beliefs and I wont bore you with them, you sound grown up enough to have heard all the arguments, lol. I may debate it with you in another thread someday

I did want to mention your comments about fear and doubt, and that we need them for survival. In modern times, do you not think it possible for people to outgrow the need for fear, if not on a mass level, at least on a personal level? I only ask, because I feel I have left my fears behind. I am at peace with my present, curious but not fearful of my future,my past can stay where it is - it has served its purpose and can be discarded like an outgrown article of clothing at this point as it holds no fear for me now. Does there have to be fear in order to know what path to take and how to keep safe, or as an adult can we expect to be able to do these things because of our intelligencse, and using the fear we had inour youth and how it shaped us as a guideline for making our way?

As for doubt, I think the OP was referring to self doubt, IMO, though he may pop on to correct me. I dont have doubts about my faith, I have an open mind however and look into other thoughts, but I can't really call that doubt. I do have plenty of doubt about the validity of things put forth in forums, haha. I dont understand why people start these threads, and get complainy when we dont all change our views to suit theirs. Maybe they are right and have answers, but only a person of weak mind is going to follow an ATS thread and change their views at once. It takes time and patience and study and maturity to decide if the path we are on needs to be altered or changed or abandoned.
but anyway, i blabber on a lot, sorry. Just wanted to bring that up about fear.
thanks
chrissie

reply to post by jean59


You're talking about how dualism is fallacial, that we're all one and the same; everything, that reality or consciousness is a mirror, and that our output and input on an individual level are impossibly entangled through paradoxical mechanisms?

If so I agree, and are you suggesting people go further than to visit the place within themselves where all this is made apparent? Or just that?

reply to post by laffoe

It is indeed easy to make a quick judgement and move on, move so fast to the next subject, another thread... so fast that you almost don't feel the insecurity, the little doubt inside you... what if the are right, what of they speak the truth?

Truth? What is truth? Are "we" all on the same page on what that means? Certainly in terms of physics there is truth. As Alan Watts and author and individual puts it, a: "cold, calculating, detached" objective view of the universe as it is nothing more than mechanisms, or again as Watts puts it a universe filled with "mere objects is objectionable", and indeed it is! There is truth in this mechanistic universe, to be sure, but there is more than this, and if we ignore that then the "truth of physics" becomes a lie of omission.

Truth is more than just objective things or phenomena. Whatever truth actually is, part of that truth is that every individual is inherently subjective. Because of this, and at the very least, in terms of the big picture and truth, part of that truth is subjective and such from the perception of that subject. Physicists and other mathematical adherents love to get all up in arms whenever someone takes a more "spiritual" approach and dares to link the idea of a relationship between observer and the observed, and declare them criminal for there mistakes of fact, their misinterpretation of quantum mechanics, and certainly "the laws of physics". It is without a hint of irony that these modern day scientist insist on a priest class status and that all others bow down as religious adherents to their mystical incantations of mathematical equations.

The physicist will rely solely upon objectivity as a tool to dismiss the notion that laws of attraction, or manifesting intentions have nothing to do with the "laws of physics", but in doing so they are willfully ignoring the reality of subjectivity. Indeed, as they argue for the purity of their objectivity they pretend they are being solely objective and have some how overcome their own inherent subjectivity. This inherent flaw in their own arguments is similar, ironically, to the inherent flaws within the O.P.'s argument.

It takes the O.P. very little time at all to go from "we" to "you", and even before this the O.P. was clear in distinguishing "we" as seven. In doing this any attempt at objectivity is hopelessly chained by the subjective viewpoint of the author. That author, whether they be one individual representing them self as seven, or if seven individuals actually sat down together in some fashion and fashioned "the letter" I will from here on out call simply the O.P, that Opening Post is as subjective as it can get, and the follow up post by that member is even more subjective. What if they are speaking the truth?

They are, it would be only fair to assume, speaking "their" truth. This is not to argue that the truth itself is pliable and malleable. If we are to ever effectively come to some form of communication, then surely we have to have a much more specific understanding on what we mean by "truth", and it seems counter-intuitive to define this "truth" as something pliable and solely subjective. Surely the objective exists within truth and not as some paradoxical conundrum but as a unified field that perfectly describes the nature of nature itself. The truth is quite simply that which is in its full fledged glorious all. The allness of is, this is what the truth is.

So, again we come back to this question of whether or not "they" in the O.P. are speaking the truth. What is true for "them" is true, just as what is true for you is true. What is true for you is true as long as it remains true for you. The moment it no longer remains true for you then it is no longer true, replaced by some other belief in what is true. This what is true for you is trueness is a part of subjective truth, and has little, if not nothing at all, to do with objectivity.

No matter how much you think you are being objective, if what is true for you turns out not to be true at all in the bigger picture of truth, then objectively speaking, this presumed objectivity is being overwhelmed by subjectivity. Of course, one can argue, and with a certain amount of validity that because this thing that was true for you was true, then in the bigger picture of the truth, that thing is the allness of is, this "what is true for you is true"ness becomes a part of that truth. How that fits into the allness of is can be the overwhelmingly and seemingly unknowable part of truth...or maybe not.

Everyone is an individual and as such subject to their own subjectivity and just as equally subject to the objective universe. This is the balance that must be obtained. Learning to balance our subjectivity with an objective universe, and understanding that the distinction doesn't mean the universe itself is solely objective, only that the objective universe tends to impose certain boundaries. How the subjective "object" deals with these impositions is the exciting part of coming to understand the universe. Can the subjective "object" go beyond pushing the envelope of the universe, and go beyond the objective boundaries?

These are the very real and tangible questions that arise when any individual attempts to grasp the allness of isness.

However, when someone asks others to go into agreement that they have succumbed to fear and doubt - and here is the point and why I Am compelled to address your post - this question of the allness of isness gets much more complex. It is not enough to assume that everyone will succumb to fear and doubt. Of course some not only will, but will sing their praises of fear and doubt as if they are necessary emotional tools in succeeding in an objective universe.

Respectfully, I suggest to you, and anyone else willing to listen, that fear and doubt are, as another member put it: "base emotions". This is specific language that should be given significance. That member chose not to use the phrase foundational emotions, but instead called them "base emotions'. Of course, that member can always come in and defend the choice of the word as meaning foundational, but in my opinion a competent unconscious mind consciously chose that word instead of foundational for a reason. Another definition of base other than foundation, would be the lowest point of a thing or place. Fear and doubt are the lowest points of emotions not the highest.

In this regard we come to understand that base is not being used to describe any foundation, but is rather speaking to the lower levels of emotions, even if this is being done while praising fear and doubt.

It is a choice.

Every individual can make the choice to feel fear, and/or doubt, or they can embrace love. If one has fully embraced love, there is no room for fear and doubt. The cup runneth over with love, and there is no room for base emotions. One must empty their cup in order to feel fear and doubt, they must be willing to function in the absence of love. For those who sing fear and doubt's praises, this choice is a valid choice because what is true for them is true. Even so, fear and doubt lead to turbulence, and remaining undisturbed becomes improbable. Being gentle while doing good, becomes far too difficult in an absence of love.

Every person must take their own path. If a person chooses to embrace love as the primary functioning emotion fear and doubt have no use. That path will lead to where it will lead just as the path of base emotions will lead where it will lead, but both will not lead in the same direction. One will go in one direction, and the other will go in a different direction. In the end, it is each individual's choice to make.

There is no right or wrong to this, there is only the subjective truth of choice. Each subjective choice will manifest its own reality based upon the intentions borne of that choice. No one has to go into agreement with fear and doubt, and no one has to go into agreement with love. Which is necessary? That is choice only you can make.

reply to post by chrissiel123


Greetings Chrissie,

Thank you for both the response, and the support. I always welcome debate, so long as it is not of a nonsensical persuasion. I have never authored a thread on ATS claiming to know the Truth™, because I recognize that spiritual and religious perspectives are subjective. There is no objective truth about the nature of existence. That does not mean, however, that everything under the sun is up for grabs. Quite the opposite. It means that we must dig deeper, and make our personal soul-searching all the more thorough. There are objective aspects to existence (as I stated with Balance and Moderation), just as their are obvious fallacies (Law of One, Love, etc).

As for fear, I apologize for not making my position more clear. Fear as an emotion can be evolved beyond. However, it must always exist because it is vital to our growth and development. I, like you, have evolved beyond the need for common phobias (stage-fight, fear of death, etc). However, that does not mean my fears were useless when I had them. A fear of death inspires a joy and ecstasy in life. A fear of public speaking inspires courage and intellectual advancement so you may overcome such a short-coming. Fear is absolutely necessary, just as evolving beyond it is also necessary (there it is again: balance and moderation).

Self-doubt, or regular doubt, one out of all of the OP's stances won't ruin my argument. Ha ha. Self-doubt is generally just an inhibitor. However, regular doubt (denial, disbelief, etc) is most definitely a valuable cognitive process to have on our side.

As for God... I try not to argue too fervently about it. God is subjective (in my opinion and experience). To those lives whom God has a hand in, perhaps He is present. To those of us (like myself) who God's hand has passed over, we find our own answers and explanations for the mechanics of the universe.

~ Scribe

Originally posted by posthuman
reply to post by jean59

 

You're talking about how dualism is fallacial, that we're all one and the same; everything, that reality or consciousness is a mirror, and that our output and input on an individual level are impossibly entangled through paradoxical mechanisms?

If so I agree, and are you suggesting people go further than to visit the place within themselves where all this is made apparent? Or just that?

just raising the collective, changing the idea of doom to something
beautyfull around the corner, is all we are trying to do here. if all stop pointing fingers and writing a half page on prooving us wrong , look inside and find your own truth, and make it a beautyfull one , a vision(creation) that is allowed to last , seeds planting in a new earth . a new era.

reply to post by posthuman


An orchestra has many sections, led by the conductor.

Before they can start to play the music...they must first tune up their instruments.
The sound made in doing this, is very chaotic...this is where we are now...tuning up
our instruments.

The next step is taken after your instrument is tuned...each one joining together in harmony with their
own section.

Then each section comes together as one...led by the "conductor"...making sweet music as "one".

As a child we are fearless...we are taught fear as we grow...there is no harmony in discord

I hope i answered your question.

reply to post by yets777


Sorry to intrude here, but, I don't think you quite grasp the nature of spiritual meditation, and the inward-flow of consciousness. You seem to think that by turning and focusing inward—towards the madhya—we can bring about the evolution and advancement of the entire species.

This is wrong. Inward spiritual motion is an individualistic process. It can change you, shape you, balance you; bring you peace, comfort, and inner harmony. It cannot save a war-torn nation from greed, corruption, and misogyny.

Unfortunately, no matter how "beautyfull" that vision of creation and formation that I coalesce internally is, it will never affect anything other than myself.

I can see the beauty of the world, in all it's myriad facets: from a lone torii gate standing amidst the ruble of a post-tsunami Japan; to the flowering buds blooming into a canopy of bright colors on a large tree catching sunlight in various angles; to the contours of a human face in half-light giving off an internal glow.

Knowing these things, and seeing these things, does not change the murder count in my country. It does not sway the people in power from pursuing economic ends. It does not convince a Christian that God wants us to care for our planet, thus supporting environmentalists, and eco-friendly awareness. Most of all, it does not convince the skeptical atheist that there is any unseen bond to life beyond blood ties and familial units.

I appreciate a good spiritual message just as much as the next guy. I walk a very spiritual road myself. I just don't let my head dissipate so high up into the clouds that I forget spirituality is a personal journey. I cannot change the world through prayer and visualization meditation. I can only change myself through magickal and meditative means.

When I want to change the world, I take off my robes. Put down my crystals. Open my front door, don my uniform, and go to the donation center in my town. I collect goods from caring community members, and help redistribute them to the needy, and the poor. I clothe those in need. I feed those without. And I shelter those in my own home who have nowhere else to go.

That is how I change the world. Not with pretty visions about "beautyfull" futures full of love and kindness for everyone involved. Get your head out of the clouds. Take an active part in your community. Change the world with a smile, a hand-out, and real passion for those less-fortunate than yourself. Change yourself with prayer and meditation. I see you still have far to go on your path. I hope this little revelation here helps awaken you to the bigger picture. Go in peace as you learn to quell your ego and seek to help the world in solid means.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


With love and respect
Thankyou for taking you time to formulate this insightfull and inspiring post
I am gratefull for you sharing your time here with us

You write about truth, subjectivity and objectivity
That the truth we presentate here indeed are our own subjective truth.
So that in a way we are speaking our truth, but only our own personal subjective opinion,
based on whatever experiences our mind-body complexes have passed through.

From one level you are right
We presentate that what we have indeed experienced
That what have resonated with the ways we connect to this world

The point is, however, that this truth we present here is a truth connecting with the source of All
You will find this truth smiling to you in wherever you look, digging into the depth of any subjectivity,
there it is.... Laughing and smiling to you

This truth is beyond all that duality of subjective vs objective, light vs darkness... it just is
We have all been presentated with the way this truth are gonna find its way back to all of our hearts again.
I write again, because this truth has never really left us, we have just forgotten about it, chasing our shadows,
running down that hill.
It - the truth Source - however never forgat about us - never!

The way this will come, has been shown to us in most convincing way
It is for all
We are all united, all we have do it realize and accept it, embrace our true nature

Go and listen to the music from O.P.: LINK
Open your heart to it - do it for real
You will be amazed

More of made videos, including me: LINK
To show we're not bull#ting, but mean this sincere

Love be with you

To all...
You might not realize it
You might not see it
It might not resonate
...
Yet!
...
This is about reality
We are not flawless
We try to presentate something
That are flawless
And eternal
...
Is within you
...
Always was
...
Don't believe us
Believe IT
Within you
Faith
...
We - the Family - have all seen proof
Even if we didn't needed it
Have faith
You'll see, feel, resonate
IT
IT IS
...
Love love love

When you realize
Grasp the truth
All will be the same
Yet
All will be different
This is not about inside with no outside
This is not about light with no dark
This is not about high with no low
Is about ALL
About YOU
YOU
...
Our words can tell you it is true, and your ears can hear it
If you open up, goes behind the words
Feel them
Take them to your amazing heart
Then you'll know
Resonate
Not just hear and analyze
Analysis won't get you there
You analyse from within the box
The box tells you that IT is not real
...
What is not real is the box
Only a reflection of our mind
A reflection caught in time and space
Break the box
Feel IT
...
Resonate
...
Mirror
Doubt and fear
Anger
...
Feel what was hidden for so long
Feel
...
IT is
You ARE
...
Thank you
Thank GOD
...
Silently the wings flow through the dark and the light
Reality dawns, once again, upon man
This time he knows
This time he knows
...
Welcome home
Sweetest love
Our hearts been missing YOU

reply to post by yets777


I wasn't goiing to bother anymore with this but seeing as you think you know better than I, I thought a response was in order. If you had bothered to look, quite a while ago I replied to one of brians earlier threads and he wanted to pass on my response to everyone. Maybe we are not all as blind and stupid as you might believe.

Well, surprise surprise huh??

I don't care if you think your all trying to spread the word of love. As far as I see it, all that comes through is arrogance and condescending behaviour.

I will continue down my own path.

Originally posted by sunsetatdawn
reply to post by yets777

 

I wasn't goiing to bother anymore with this but seeing as you think you know better than I, I thought a response was in order. If you had bothered to look, quite a while ago I replied to one of brians earlier threads and he wanted to pass on my response to everyone. Maybe we are not all as blind and stupid as you might believe.

Well, surprise surprise huh??

I don't care if you think your all trying to spread the word of love. As far as I see it, all that comes through is arrogance and condescending behaviour.

I will continue down my own path.

edit on 3-7-2011 by sunsetatdawn because: (no reason given)

why so angry ?
where did u find the arogance,
when we always stayed around to talk about the subject
but we projected an idea behind the replies,
if your respectfull , you get respectfull
if your humble and coming in a calm order , you receive the same
the mirror concept
u guys kept fighting and disputing on details(don't take this personal)
but never saw the message ,
while we did explain it numerous times
the concept is the way you react towards god is the way he will react towards you,
that counts for every fear people have too,
we are honestly trying to give gift away,
but you all seem to miss the major points , and don't seem to respect the time we put in here,
to try people to actualy listen to eachother with understanding
and love uncondicionaly , stop debating and work together in a respectfull manner

reply to post by yets777


You really have no idea. I have been on this earth for quite a while now and have lived a very full life. I have been treated very well and very poorly by different people I've encountered.

What I don't need is someone telling me I don't hear the message. I have enough love for those that deserve it.

reply to post by sunsetatdawn


I can tell you, dear friend, that I know Yets personally and know that there is nothing arrogant or cordescending about him, or any of us that is.
You might mistake the confidence that we shine with being arrogant
We are only confident, since it has been revealed to us the key to free this world out of misery, pain, greed, anger and so on
This key has been shown by the source and have resonated with such power within each and every one of us so that we can not deny the truth of it
I am not trying to speak in riddles
You will always be welcome
We are here for you as you truly are here for us too
That is a fact, imprented by our hearts connection with eachother through God
When the deal is done, it will all be so amazing that we can't even imagine
And think all of this is indeed real
Look at the world
It will all be lovified
The proces has been initiated
It will come to each and everyone of us, eventually
The pull of the helping hand, softly catching our fall, becomes stronger day by day
Can you help?
Yes!
Will you help?
...
Your answer
Listen within your heart
Resonate
...
May love and light guide your steps
...
Love and respect

reply to post by laffoe


The condescending tones and arrogance I am referring to is from a combination of all of the varying threads that you and your "family" have participated in, and brian is a shining example of the afforementioned arrogance.

The message in itself is a good one. But remember, you all are not the first ones to come up with this brilliant concept, and you won't be the last.

Basically if we all treated one another with the love and respect we wish for ourselves, wow, what a world this would be. Sadly, this is not the case, and never will be.

So I will continue to look after me and mine and have empathy for the downtrodden and mistreated and help when I can. But I cannot and will not love everyone on this earth because honestly, they don't deserve it.

reply to post by sunsetatdawn


For me that sounds just great, love those you can and for the reasons you find possible,
something to train for all of us.
More reasons for loving to be found and more loved ones present in the world.

True, we're not the first to bring this up and will certainly not be the last.
A longing build into our hearts since dawning of time.
A longing for Unity through realization of God.
I hope that you, Sir, beyond these words printed on a computer screen, that
you sense our sincerity.
We are really only up to reach out.
Create Unity, through the hearts of us all.
Hoping for this to reach your heart.

Best wishes

reply to post by laffoe


Just to clarify for you, I am a woman. A mother of four beautiful children who have made me into the person I am today. I know what unconditional love is and it is the best feeling in the world.

Unfortunately, not everyone in the world deserves this kind of love.

reply to post by sunsetatdawn


Ah sorry for my mistake.
A proof of my claim earlier that we are no way flawless.
I myself have three children, for whose love and company I
consider myself very lucky.
This is not about loving everyone blindly, there are those so
deep in sleep, contained within their own selfhatred, anger, greed, fear
or whatever, that it really will take a big gravity pull to get them out of there.
A gravity pull that more and more of us will make, standing together side
by side, Sisters and Brothers.
Eventually all of us will have to look at the life we have lived, not trough our
own eyes, but trough the eyes of God.
This will create a realization of where we went wrong, and a longing fro correct that.
I make that bow for God, freely out of love and respect, knowing His judgement is only
based on my innermost truth combined with His loving guidance.
For those who have lived a life of doing wrong, this will be a great chock and awakening,
and this only because God is looking from within their hearts on their very lives.
So at least you could love God, our Source, dwelling inside each and every heart.

Love