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(New title:) How are people manipulated by psychopaths?

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posted on Jul, 12 2011 @ 04:57 AM
Well it seems to me it's either the Female Egg Rebellion or.......The Coming Of The Purple Better One

The scene is Grants Park Chicago 1968. A full scale model of the Mayflower with American flags for sails has been set up. AJ in his Uncle Sam suit steps to a mike on the deck.

"Ladies and gentlemen, it is my coveted privilege and deep honour to introduce you to the distinguished senator and former Justice of the Supreme Court Homer Mandrill, known to his friends as the Purple Better One. No doubt you are familiar with a book called The African Genesis, written by Robert Ardrey, a native son of Chicago, and I may add a true son of America. I quote to you from his penetrating work:

"'When I was a boy in Chicago I attended the Sunday School of our neighbouring church. I recall our Wednesday night meetings with the simplest nostalgia. We would meet in the basement. There would be a short prayer and a shorter benediction . . . And we would turn out the lights. . . and in total darkness. . . hit each other over the head with chairs.'

"Mr. Ardrey's early training tempered his character to face and make known the truth about the origins and nature of mankind.

"'Not in innocence and not in Asia was mankind born. The home of our fathers was the African Highland. The most significant of all our gifts was the legacy bequeathed us by our immediate forebears, a race of terrestrial flesh eating killer apes. Raymond A. Dart of the University of Johannesburg was the strident voice from South Africa that would prove the southern ape to be the human ancestor. Dart put forward the simple hypothesis that man emerged form the anthropoid background for one reason and one reason only – because he was a killer.

"'A rock, a stick, a heavy bone, was to our ancestral killer ape the margin of survival, and now we sit in his office at the wrong end of the world. . . Man's original nature imposes itself on any human solution.

"'The aggressive nature of the southern ape, sir, glowing with menace, fought your battles on the perilous veldts of Africa 500,000 years ago. Had he not done so you would not be living here in this great city in this great land of America raising your happy families in peace and prosperity. Who more fitted to represent our Simian heritage in all its glory than Homer Mandrill, himself a descendent of that illustrious line?'

"Who else can restore to this nation the spirit of true conservatism that imposes itself on any human solution? And at a time when this great republic is threatened by enemies foreign and domestic? Actually, there can be only one candidate: The Purple Better One. . .Your future President. . ."

To the battle Hymn of the Republic an American flag is drawn aside to reveal a purple assed mandrill (thunderous applause). Led to the mike by secret service men in dark suits that bulge suggestively here and there, the Purple Better One blinks in bewilderment.

-William S Burroughs - The Coming Of The Purple Better One.

posted on Jul, 23 2011 @ 12:29 AM
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

"The Golden Rule"

Well, you are assuming they DO have that ability. While there is no written in stone for sure answer yet about why they cant or wont empathize, fMRI show really different brain activity.

Greetings, my apologies for the delay.
You are correct, I can only speculate on that ability or lack there of, I can't prove they can abide by it, but I believe they for the most part know the difference between what is "right" and "wrong"." Do on to others as you would have them do on to you" I would think that is pretty self evident? But within the mind of such who knows?
I decided not to go there, as I believe you are correct. Excellent info btw.

While not everyone you describe in your post above sound to me like actual sociopaths or psychopaths, although some of their behaviors are taken from the pyschopath handbook, asking a true psychopath or sociopath to explain themselves and prove themselves "better" people is kinda silly. Its very possible that they really cant.

Very true, and point taken, lol, again, Im not gonna go there.

I believe there is a researcher who did these studies and found he too was void in his brain activity via his own FMRI?I remember a vid we watched in PSYC-101 pertaining to such. He seemed normal however in every respect, but than again so did BTK aka Dennis Rader. A pillar in his community even.What a rabbit hole this topic employs.

Again, excellent info

posted on Jul, 23 2011 @ 02:33 AM
reply to post by Wolf1nManSkin

Thank you for doing what you do. The more people looking out for socio/psychopaths the more bad players will be weeded out of the game. It gets bothersome after a while when I see so many people get taken by the inexperienced.

And my super power is making you believe I'm normal

Greetings Wolf1nManSkin,

I can assure you I will continue to do what I do, however, I do not perceive what I do as beneficiary, or favorable to those who are, or who claim to be sociopaths. It is interesting to note, yet not surprising, that one claiming to be such would twist it so.

I also applaud you for your sincerity, if it is genuine, with regard to your mission, as the traits that would normally accompany said mission are likely not displayed often with any substance, if at all, THIS, based on my experience pertaining to the predator that attacked me and mine. That said, I will give you and others here claiming to be such, the benefit of the doubt. Those claiming to be sociopaths, thankyou for your contributions to this thread as others have too I see condoned your missions. A more disciplined path can mean many things. I hope at the end of your journeys you find your soul, your conscience, indeed your humanity, and do so without causing harm to someone else.

Your “super power” is duly noted.

My true “super powers” are that of husband and father. The other, is an extension of those, born of necessity to restore and protect the integrity of the originals.

Wolf, your description of your self, in relation to what you claim to be I find “spot on”. I have borrowed what you have shared here, and have applied it to a well known case. Its an extreme scenario.

With regard to “positive affects” & “negative affects”, by default, a sociopath lacks the emotional, moral and ethical intellect to comprehend these concepts as say, society perceives them, or maybe they can, but just don’t. I, in no way, shape, or form would be comfortable with the thought of a sociopath claiming otherwise, but perhaps it is possible.

This young child was kidnapped, held prisoner, for 18 years. She was taken at age 11, repeatedly raped, and was pregnant by 13, eventually had three children as a result of what her attacker perceived as “positive affects” both for her, and the predator. Perhaps her attacker after getting arrested/convicted twice in the past for kidnap and rape before kidnapping Jaycee, decided his tactics too were “silly” and modified his tactics to provide “long term gain”, as "short term gain" proved costly, just a thought.

That said, I would ponder a true sociopaths first taste of a “long term relationship”
is likely more consistent with Stockholm syndrome or some twisted version thereof.

My “super power” extension is not one I asked for nor did I want. Likewise, I don’t believe a sociopath asked to be a sociopath, a vampire a vampire, a lycan a lycan, born or made, whatever. I also don’t believe all sociopaths are absolutely evil. Forgive the symbolism I often use, I believe many of the legends associated with mankind’s worst nightmares or born from being victims or survivors of sociopaths.

Wolf you also shared that after a tramatic event, you discovered your self. I too, after what I and mine went through, found myself so to speak. There were many events that defy explaination, sometimes bordering on the paranormal, or maybe spiritual, a "calling" maybe. Indeed your kind best stay clear or be delt with, like a stinging insect that finds its way into my home, it's quickly squashed.
Like I said it played out like a movie. I think those interested will enjoy the book, if it ever becomes a reality.

Ponder this:

Peter Parker didn’t ask to be Spiderman. I think young Bruce Wayne before witnessing the murder of his parents would have inspired to be anything other than a glorified vigilante. The man had issues, perhaps a sociopath in his own realm, hell, maybe I am as well. ('
') I know more symbolism, life imitating art or the opposite?

Indeed, I believe there must be “balance”.

Wolf1nManSkin, have you ever seen the movie “Unbreakable”?

If I may, I'd like to use this opportunity to update situations I have mentioned in my earlier post.The family we sought to save remains intact. The last few weeks have been very productive in that regard. It is good to have them back. I am also researching “Dragon” software as a tool to simplify the “book” endeavor. I have also posted a rant pertaining to the “Trial of the Century” on this thread, if anyone cares, I warn you however, it is a “rant”

Unrelated: My apologies ATS & OP for not returning to this thread as soon as I would have hoped to. Indeed the “trial of the century” and other events have kept me busy. I must now utilize time to seek employment pertaining to my training and it will not be an easy task. Living in the unemployment/murder capitol of the USA, it’s gonna suck actually. With that said, the current stats by social science pertaining to ratios of said sociopaths in relation to those who are not, at least in my location, I think is inaccurate. They do seem to be everywhere here.

Sadly,I will have little time to contribute to this or any other thread for a while, but look forward to returning. I have many stories/theories to share pertaining to this topic and many other topics here on ATS. Particularly, disclosure, suppressed tech, HARRP and many others. I will be lurking, as I always have. Thank you OP, and everyone for sharing, sociopaths included. Wildtimes and timidgal,illusionsaregrander, thankyou for your kind comments and/or the friendings, talk soon

Sunlight & Silver

posted on Jul, 23 2011 @ 02:57 AM
reply to post by The7thShepherd

Hello ATS, thought I’d share this, my rant relating to the trial I believe Wildtimes pluged in her post. It was obviously written a few weeks ago. It deals mostly with the biased reporting by MSM and particularly HLN & NG. It is basically directed at the NG drones. The jest of this rant has been removed from HLN’s FB page. I guess they didn’t like it. Please know, I do not in any way shape or form condone what happened to this child. It is repulsive, and simply heart breaking. But I am angry at how the media incites witch hunts and whips the public into a feeding frenzy, for ratings and profit, or even to rally us into illegal wars, for again, profit. That to me is even more repulsive on many levels. This rant should be noted is a little "canibus fueled" as well.('


The “Rant”

The Defense?

That was an awesome display of "sunlight & silver” The defense didn't prove Casey’s innocence per say; it proved the states case had no substance, get over it!
The system Worked! There was more than one victory. Before one rants about how much profit the accused, a juror, lawyers or anyone else involved may secure from such rubbish, they can thank “Nancy Disgrace” and other media outlets that engage in such “witch hunts” and biased “bullscat” reporting, for making said profit possible.

How much profit did/is Nancy making? Her associated Network? Bet she wouldn’t disclose “that”! What about the "other" Networks? One should be able to see the hypocrisy that biased reporting produces and the dangers to freedom therein. “She” is “dancing with the devil” and if “Christ cries” it is for those who dance with her. The MSM is not exempt, and they know it. So quickly they jump the fence, and try to incite a “witch hunt” of their own. Not as “Guilty” as Nancy Grace but “Guilty” in their own realm. MSM please don’t make Nancy Grace a martyr for the rest of you. Allow us! Take note and act accordingly.

Food for thought: MSM

“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time”
Lincoln, very wise man. He has a few other credits to his name.

Nancy Grace?

She and "her" unbecoming conduct while a prosecutor allowed some to walk, and her show and biased reporting has caused some to take their own lives. Pathetic, NG settled out of court , how typical, she is a heretic!
If NG wants a “witch hunt” hers is one many may condone, but then is it fair, or just fighting fire with fire? I'll have my pitch fork and torch handy.

You are not Julian Assange , don’t try to be Nancy, you are a parasitic opportunist at best! Your convictions have been lost in profit, just a self serving battle cry without substance. You are a SOCIOPATH!
"Wikileaks", "Anonymous" , Gary Mckinnon, Jessica Lynch, Bradly Manning, Julian Assange, to name a few, and the associated network of "whistle-blowers" & "white Hats/hackers" is a natural and needed element, born of biased media and their manipulative fear tactics. My hat is off to any such champions of truth, via "Sunlight and Silver"

“Few men are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change a world which yields most painfully to change.”
Robert F. Kennedy 1966 Speech, US Democratic Politician

This quote does not apply to you Nancy Grace, don't twist it so.
The “sheeple” have spoken! They said “Nancy Lovers” -->“Shut the “F” up! “

To the MSM ?

Look us in the eye while giving it to us straight; please refrain from giving it to us as you bend us over. Can any of you declare you report unbiased and fairly? 9/11, BP gulf disaster, Pentagon, Iraq, WMD's, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Afghanistan the un-winnable “War On Terror”, and then the nerve to use these fear tactics and biased narratives to bring birth to TSA, Patriot Acts 1 & 2, DHS, Fema camps...there is more important issues and dangers to US citizens, such as "American Fukushima" Fort Calhoun, Nebraska: I think this is more important than the current distractions.
copy & paste


Casey is not “guilty” of innocence, but neither are you, nor any of us. Is she a sociopath? If she is I question if she was born that way, or MADE that way. The acorn didn't fall far from the oak. WTH?--> Tot-grandpa an ex cop and tot-grandma a nurse? It just adds insult to injury.

George & Cindy, Law enforcement and other fed/local employees’?

Casey got lucky, that simple, everyone dropped the ball. The outcome would have been completely different had the checks and balances worked in the beginning. The time to listen to one’s “gut” has come and passed. If some would have gone with their ”gut” sooner, perhaps tot - grandma and tot - grandpa, I dare say we would know more.

The Verdict?

The “system/justice” and especially the MEDIA, FAILED in the “beginning”, that’s why, "the constitution" and Casey via an unbiased jury, WON in the “end”.


I hope some take the time to explore these links below. They explain why Nancy Grace and others are able to do what they do, and why the FCC is null and void in some respects. The results of which are, I dare say, why the planet is in the scat can that it is, not to mention these once great United States.


All of us heard Judge Perry describe the parameters by which the jury was required to render the verdict. My hat is off to them. I also enjoyed Perry’s slamming of the MSM .Noble indeed, JFK and Lincoln would be proud.

“Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” -Margaret Mead

The one forgotten in all this?

This child’s death, and the media circus that surrounded it, has alerted the MSM that the “sheeple” are “awake”, at least on some levels, and that is “priceless”. You bet your ass it reverberates to the highest of institutions who engage in such tactics, and I hope, “that” is this child’s legacy.

Sunlight and Silver

posted on Jul, 23 2011 @ 03:06 AM
I agree with you, the socios seem more prevelant then the shrinks estimate. In fact, I am firmly convinced that for every one empathic, there is one socio.

In fact: EVERY --MAN-- I have ever met and encountered, was ---at least--- NOT introspective-and-empathized. (And I'm not being facetious.) (My men-of-mention were all strait, not gay, but testosterone and orientation are a fascinating mysterious element in this mix.) (I think, anyway.) (I knew a gay man who was very empathetic.)

I know there are women baddies. Cayce Anthony. I'm just telling my experience.

posted on Jul, 23 2011 @ 08:32 AM
reply to post by The7thShepherd

I think Nancy Grace is a despicable monstrosity. She makes my skin crawl, she makes my blood boil, she makes my stomach heave. She and her minions are the absolute DREGS of humanity -- and in my opinion, she should be FIRED, FINED, and then TAKEN OUT BACK AND SHOT. Who on earth -- ALL of earth --- needs such a vile, hateful, opinionated, dehumanizing (if I hear the T-mom-word again I may go ballistic) piece of trash around?

Entertainment? PLEASE.
I wrote to CNN's "contact us" box for her asinine show as well, and said so. Needless to say, I did not get a response. The MSM bigwigs have ignored the hundreds upon hundreds of comments on various sites condemning her viperous sniping and hysteria-mongering...some of which voiced similar feelings to mine:
i.e. throwing a brick through her talking head.

Absolute horror of a human being. At least Jerry Springer is obvious about his show's "entertainment only" value - I just drool over the fantasy that she will be knocked from her self-appointed tower by someone with a lower pain tolerance than mine....and sent straight to where she deserves to be: Eternal Nonexistence.

What an ABOMINATION! What a waste of fresh air, food, space, and water!
Ugh. That is all the energy or thought or time I will give to that female rendering of a demon. Mkes me want to heave.
Thanks for ranting; this OP was a spin-off of one I tried to post that was closed because it was related to the trial, and of course, there was already a thread on it.

I was watching the grandfather of the victim on the witness stand -- and HE seems to me to be an absolute psychopath, a twisted, lying, monster....
and it made me you said,
SOMEONE CREATED CASEY....should they not be held accountable?

EDIT TO ADD: I had never even heard of N G before this trial -- and I didn't even know who the accused was - but because the MSM (in particular CNN online) kept putting headlines about the jury, the judge, the hearings, etc on their homepage, finally one day I thought "Who the heck is this Casey Anthony?"

That was my intro to the entire debacle. I watched the trial on CNN's camera -- and tried to avoid the MSM spin on it. The one time I looked at Nancy Grace's blathering blob she made me sick...

MODS: If this post is too assaultive, please remove. I just needed to say it.
edit on 23-7-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 24 2011 @ 05:57 PM
Taking advantage of someone else, manipulating them, is breathing.
Second line for now.

posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 04:42 PM

Originally posted by squandered

Originally posted by Wolf1nManSkin
reply to post by squandered

For me it is not so much a choice not to care, but find a reason to care. What do I care if anyone dies? I do not. However, if someone that has potential to further the human race dies without contributing, I would be unhappy that we lost potential.

That's not a huge leap from normal psychology to me.

Using a little skill and effort, meditating away dualistic thoughts invariably leaves you seeing no good or bad itinerant in anything (at least gain a notion of the idea). Similarly if you look for meaning in life you gain a hope for simple truths, symmetry and coherence.

Not being emotionally charged about something based on it's symbols is not necessarily a bad thing. I know people who were born without a sentimental bone. They tend to be driven by their ego's. I see a lot of that.

Degrees of sociopathy? A "worse" sociopath would not even care about that.
Again wolf I am curious about the music you like. You invited questions and it was not meant in a flipant or dismmisive way. I was wondering if your type like a particular genre.

posted on Oct, 6 2011 @ 12:49 AM
Whoa, there are some truly evil people out there, real psychopaths, fully aware of the real pain they cause others, and thriving off of this feeling of power over the ignorant fools they wield it over. Wonder what long term deprivation of social interaction/ solitary confinement does to a normal body. More than likely nothing beneficial.

posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 12:46 PM
Hi all, I'm back.
There's a new issue related to this topic going on right now that has received much network airtime, and very little factual presentation. In fact, it's a huge cluster of previously seeming strangers all shoved into a blender together.

I have exhausted my other efforts to discuss it rationally, and am now turning back to this forum, where things seem to make more sense and people are more willing to be open to discourse rather than blatant mis-quotes and implications and word-twisting.

we have certainly established that there are psychopaths all around us.
Recently my attention was brought to a website I had not run across before.
I would like to resume here on this ATS thread with like-minded people who enjoy discussing the art and science of psychology.

Here is the webpage and a brief snippet of their homepage intro.

Statement Analysis is the most accurate way of determining if a person is lying in a verbal or written statement. A person cannot give a lengthy deceptive statement without revealing that it is a lie. This is because people's words will betray them. There are usually several ways you can phrase a statement. People will always word their statement based on all their knowledge. Therefore, their statement may contain information they did not intend to share. Even though they want to withhold information, people will give us more information than what they realize. Unfortunately, they sometimes give us more information than what we realize. The key is to listen to what people are telling you and to know what to look for in a statement.

I would like to explore more about this "system", and the related Behavioral Analysis as discussed in its blog page, here:

Behavioral Analysis can be viewed in two ways:

1. Research
2. Common Sense

1. Research: The FBI amasses a great volume of research by simply reporting the actions of family of missing persons and when the case is adjudicated, they put the file on either pile A or pile B. Pile A is "family did it" and pile B, much smaller, "Stranger did it" and are able to compare the behavior of families in Pile A with families in Pile B


2. Common Sense

Some people are naturals at Behavioral Analysis. It is a matter of working through detail with systematic thought. It starts with a premise:

Believe what you are told.

This is the same principle of Statement Analysis: believe that what you are about to examine is truthful and make your way through the facts (or in the case of linguistic analysis, through the words) and see if you hit any bumps in the road.

I would like to discuss these two forms of analysis, from the point of view of investigators and detectives. My objective is to learn more about these two techniques, which I find fascinating and are appropriate to my field of study and my current interests...Case studies, of course, would be most relevant, and we could start with anything.

DISCLAIMER: The blog entry above from which I snipped is referencing the author's very definite opinon of a specific case, but also gives examples of the techniques and previous cases used as "training and discussion" examples. My aim is to discuss ANY case that people contributing would like to discuss, regarding behavior, deception, manipulation, character, and glaring exceptions to societal, cultural "norms".

If there are any of you who'd like to join in, please, well, you know what to do!!

posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 07:21 PM
I don't know if this is helpful but I find that I go back to the idea of a different personality type which, well...

I'm still in two minds.

Anyhow, what I wanted to add regarding liars is that after time they become more obvious, (as soon as you begin to look).

There was a person in my life whom I trusted implicitly. I trusted this person more than anybody, but ironically this person is a compulsive liar. I didn't know. I never looked. After an obvious and hurtful lie, which served no purpose, I decided to look for signs; to see how she lied. It took no time at all. I didn't really catch the signs as every statement was contradictory of something in the past - all of a sudden!. I had to go over the whole relationship putting question marks on all that I believed in.

So my point is that over time they will become obvious regardless of the improvable nature of their statements. They will eventually make new statements and invariably work on a different tact that forces them to forget anything they have said.

The one thing I note most of all is the technique of being what you accuse and accusing what you are doing. I've seen this a lot. I think it's inherited and cultural. As I became aware, of course this person knew. This person therein behaved as accused as if it would hide the trail. All the while I fended accusations, which really were just excuses. For example, when someone is caught they blame the other person, however if this person has normal to high level of sophistication they will pre-empt the behaviour on the other person - swear at them so they become agitated and then attack them, as if they are the victim. I think they always operate this way.

All they care about is what people deem attractive, desirable or just popular. Behaviour based on real value and merit are fools games to them.

All this being said, I'm not willing to state there is an evil amongst us. It seems stupid and feels like animals in human skin, but that's all. They can only see that the world exists for them.

posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 05:08 AM
reply to post by squandered

The one thing I note most of all is the technique of being what you accuse and accusing what you are doing. I've seen this a lot. I think it's inherited and cultural. As I became aware, of course this person knew. This person therein behaved as accused as if it would hide the trail. All the while I fended accusations, which really were just excuses

I agree. It's quite peculiar, though, how "individualized" they can be. I am thinking of two people from my past, one a senior, one a person of about 30...opposite genders, opposite backgrounds, circumstances, etc.

These two have no idea of each others' existence, they're simply two that have come and gone at quite different times in my own life.

One was, as you say, a liar non pareil, all to cover their own deception...I figured it out after a few months, but it was a very painful awakening.

The other was a master at passive-aggressive crapola, who had fine-tuned the method of self-defense in a way that one could never really point a finger and say "you did this!"....always had a "logical" explanation (and innocent one) for accusing me of "misunderstanding"....

The latter had a grown child with whom I was very close for a time; who was, I discovered, extraordinarily talented at their own style of doing the same thing.

None of these people were actually "available" emotionally; but all in different ways. Glad to have known them in retrospect, but my what PAINFUL relationships those were in the enduring and effort!

My point is that each case has their own unique "spin" on how to manipulate others, as nearly as I can tell each method was based on the latent and unmet "needs" they harbored. Respectively, those needs were for the one control; for the second, pity; and for the third, avoidance of intimacy.

Thanks for joining in...!!

posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 06:32 PM
reply to post by wildtimes

avoidance of intimacy

Coming from a male perspective, you know... I never thought of that.
I can say that I pushed intimacy. I wanted her to know the real me, and my wants weren't really based on 'her' because they were a need for approval from her kind... how bad is that. lol.

I don't think too many people are actually psychopaths. That's where there the variations exist. I think the generalised pathology is a matter of crutches used to avoid a sense of shame, and those people are only associated to the real psychopath, regardless of how certifiable they are.

It appears to work along these lines. If dad is a psychopath the kids will be messed up. SOME of them will learn the tactics without having the impetus. They know no other way and can harden their hearts. They will endorse and promote being 'tough' and admire ruthless people. They are the bankers and lawyers who make up the 4%, but I don't think it's that prevalent. It just takes one psychopath to create 100 aresholes.

A lot of them will try to escape the inhuman upbringing. They fill up the mental hospitals and religious fraternity, plus the kids that never could socialise etc etc. It isn't a case that they all had a psychopathic parent, no... it could be a great grand father 6 generations back. The family culture uses the tactics. That's why I say it's cultural and hereditary.

I still don't know if being a psychopath is a genetic blimp. Culture creates genetic diversions by allowing differences to be useful. That said, the whole concept doesn't bode well with me.

The problem is that it all ends up in war. More and more the truth becomes irrelevant and people live in fear. They learn that survival is only for the most ruthless and they strive to be harder, destroying niceties along the way. We are at the behest of some elite cultures that work this way. People are a long way off seeing through their charms. They just want to be on the winning team, after the dust has settled. I'd say 90% of people fit this bill. In this case the most heartless can rise to the top.

There seems to be a balance. You have to be a bit more bad than the others and the level of bad can't go up indefinitely as your people will invariable self-destruct.

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