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So you thought that America is a "Nation under God"? The Forefathers wouldn't agree!

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posted on Jun, 29 2011 @ 11:41 AM
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To get right to the facts and not waste your patience like most ATS members like to do with long, convoluted and incoherent introductions, here's the meat:

The Treaty of Tripoli - 1797

This treaty was unanimously ratified by the US Senate



Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.



And I say: BOOM!

Not only the Treaty clearly States that America is NOT a Christian Nation-State, but it EXPLICITLY declares that any war in the future against the Muslims of the Barbary coast (which includes today's Libya) is totally illegal! Not that the current US administration cares about respecting the Law and the Constitution, but just to let you know...

As a final nail in the coffin, here's another article, Our Godless Constitution , from The Nation.

The US Constitution, like the Constitution of the First Republic of France, was written by humanist, "Luminary" intellectuals and politicians who totally rejected the intrusion of religion and religious faith in State affairs, namely the Separation of Church and State.

This is the common philosophy school of David Hume, Diderot, Voltaire, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, John Locke, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine; all radical republicans, promoters of a society ruled by man and not God, of liberty instead of tyranny, or any despotic monarchic ruled supposed to represent God's authority.

They rejected even the slimmest forms of collaboration with the monarchic power and the central authority of Rome of the Anglican Church, unlike the Commonwealth countries, under the British Empire, who adopted some liberal policy while still having their balls owned by the monarchy and the Church.
edit on 29/6/11 by Echtelion because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 29 2011 @ 11:53 AM
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It was also ratified unanimously without any debate over the language contained therein.

Not that it needs to be said. There is no christianity present in the Constitution. Or even in the Declaration Of Independence.

But the religious right keeps repeating the lie and citing a few forefathers that they've quote-mined. Funny though, they never can point out the christianity in any of our nation's formative legal documents.



posted on Jul, 12 2011 @ 09:49 PM
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The United States is part of Western Civilization, which is based upon Christianity and Christian principles. Most, if not all people of the United States, and North and South America for that matter, are either Christians or have ideals based upon Christian morals. We are a nation built upon Christianity, like it or not.

The self hating attitude of white christians in the West, who I assume you are also one, is nothing more than an effect of the brainwashing white people have gone through by Zionist media and culture. Don't you see, with Christianity gone and a lack of identity in the United States, Zionist Jews are able to run rampart freely in the social, cultural, economic, and political spectrums. The thing that Jews hate the most is a strong Western christian nation, because all throughout history, the people that have been able to get rid of the Zionist scum the most, because they were pillaging their country and people, have been white christians.

Do some research before you attempt to call me a racist, anti-semetic, or a Nazi. Open up your mind for a change, and realize just how much you are a puppet of the Zionist machine.



posted on Jul, 12 2011 @ 09:56 PM
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What exactly are you saying Boom about?

I'm not following your point to this thread



posted on Jul, 12 2011 @ 10:52 PM
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Your title is misleading. America was founded by Theists & Deists, who are believers in a God, but not necessarily Christianity. Your title should be something like, "America was never a Christian Nation"... Many peoples influenced the ideas of the founders, such as the ancient Greeks, Native American tribes such as the Iroquois, Freemasonry, and of course Christianity. All of the influences were based on the idea of God existing.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 12:08 AM
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reply to post by rdavis
 


Not everyone in western world is Christian or have principles based on Christianity. There are many different religions in western society today. for example i am a Pagan, I observe Pagan holidays(which by the way, many were stolen and used by Christianity in order to make people conform). saying that all morals and laws today are based on christian principles, i would beg to differ. as to being a "hater of christianity" yes I am, I however do not have any problems with the teachings of Christ. they are two different things. christianity has twisted the words and teachings of Christ to suit man's needs and desires. losing all meaning of the religion.

To the OP I think that the US was found on the idea that there is a god, but not a christian one. religion is throughout the founding father works(that they are endowed by their Creator, written in the Declaration of Independence), so the idea of god is there just not the one that everyone thinks it is.
edit on 7/13/11 by littletheif203 because: forgot to add something



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 12:12 AM
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its awful watching nbc edit the pledge during sporting events now



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 01:17 AM
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Originally posted by cocopuff
its awful watching nbc edit the pledge during sporting events now


i don't think its fair that the pledge says under god when everyone in the nation doesn't fall into the category of worshiping "god"

its not even the original pledge of allegiance, it was added in by the same category of people that you fall into.
"my way is right, your way is wrong"



posted on Jul, 14 2011 @ 04:24 AM
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The "Under God" bit means that whoever you refer to as God that this nation is protected under. Get your facts straight before you try and come here and spew ignorance.



posted on Jul, 14 2011 @ 05:59 AM
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Oh good god. Here w ego again


Originally posted by Echtelion
To get right to the facts and not waste your patience like most ATS members like to do with long, convoluted and incoherent introductions, here's the meat:

The Treaty of Tripoli - 1797

This treaty was unanimously ratified by the US Senate



Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.



And I say: BOOM!

Not only the Treaty clearly States that America is NOT a Christian Nation-State, but it EXPLICITLY declares that any war in the future against the Muslims of the Barbary coast (which includes today's Libya) is totally illegal! Not that the current US administration cares about respecting the Law and the Constitution, but just to let you know...


And I say BOOM. You fail at history and basic english comprehension.

The treaty is stating that Christianity is not the state religion of the United States, and therefore has no problems with dealing with Muslims/

At the time, The Muslim Barbary Powers (Tunis, Morocco, Algiers, and Tripoli) were warring against what they claimed to be the "Christian" nations (England, France, Spain, Denmark, and the United States (notice . . . state religion of the first 4?).

Christianity was and is not the state religion.

That does not mean that our founding fathers and the documents thereof were not steeped in Christianity.




. . .
namely the Separation of Church and State.

. . .



A separation that means that the state can't force anyone to a certain church.

Funny how you anti-religious people fail at the first amendment. You get the first part right . . . the government can't establish a national religion, but you fail on the next part "shall not prohibit the free exercise thereof."


This is the common philosophy school of David Hume, Diderot, Voltaire, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, John Locke, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine;
. . .


Again fail.

David Hume:

--The order of the universe proves an omnipotent mind.

(Treatise, 633n)

Wherever I see order, I infer from experience that there, there hath
been Design and Contrivance . . . the same principle obliges me to infer an infinitely perfect Architect from the Infinite Art and Contrivance which is displayed in the whole fabric of the universe.

(Letters, 25-26)

[Found in Capaldi, see below]

The whole frame of nature bespeaks an intelligent author; and no rational enquirer can, after serious reflection, suspend his belief a moment with regard to the primary principles of genuine Theism and Religion . . .

Were men led into the apprehension of invisible, intelligent power by a contemplation of the works of nature, they could never possibly entertain any conception but of one single being, who bestowed existence and order on this vast machine, and adjusted all its parts, according to one regular plan or connected system . . .

All things of the universe are evidently of a piece. Every thing is
adjusted to every thing. One design prevails throughout the whole. And this uniformity leads the mind to acknowledge one author.

Philo and Cleanthes, in the Dialogues accept the argument from design. Hume scholar Nicholas Capaldi states that:

All of the characters in the Dialogues speak for Hume, and the message of the Dialogues is that morality is independent of religion.

(David Hume, Boston: G.K. Hall & Co., 1975, ch. 9, 188-97; Capaldi is an internationally-known Hume expert and founder of the Hume Society)

Capaldi states in the above section:

Hume believed in the existence of God. He rejected the ontological argument. He accepted in one form the argument from design. God exists, but his properties are unknown and unknowable by us . . . In none of his writings does Hume say or imply that he does not accept the existence of God. On the contrary, Hume says in several places that he accepts the existence of God . . .

Guided by basic misunderstandings of Hume's position on causality or at the very least the negative aspects of Hume's skepticism, most readers assume that the central question is one concerning God's existence.--



Diderot:

--"In the Pensees, Diderot defends a Deistic conception of God as essential to the explanation of the function of the natural universe, and as the necessary basis for morality. Yet while rejecting Atheism, he is strongly tempted by it, as it constitutes a more honest and intellectual attitude than Deism." Diderot's politics: A study of the evolution of Diderot's political thought ...
By Anthony Strugnell pg. 134--



Voltaire:

--All sects are different, because they come from men; morality is everywhere the same, because it comes from God. - Voltaire

--"What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason."- Voltaire

--It does not require great art, or magnificently trained eloquence, to prove that Christians should tolerate each other. I, however, am going further: I say that we should regard all men as our brothers. What? The Turk my brother? The Chinaman my brother? The Jew? The Siam? Yes, without doubt; are we not all children of the same father and creatures of the same God?"-Voltaire--




Jean-Jacques Rousseau:

--Having converted to Roman Catholicism early in life and returned to the austere Calvinism of his native Geneva as part of his period of moral reform, Rousseau maintained a profession of that religious philosophy and of John Calvin as a modern lawgiver throughout the remainder of his life Source

"I perceive God everywhere in His works. I sense Him in me; I see Him all around me." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau

“God made me and broke the mold.”- Jean-Jacques Rousseau

"Yes, if the life and death of Socrates are those of a wise man, the life and death of Jesus are those of a god."- Jean-Jacques Rousseau




John Locke:

"“The Bible is one of the greatest blessings bestowed by God on the children of men.- It has God for its author; salvation for its end, and truth without any mixture for its matter.- It is all pure.” - John Locke

"John Locke defines 'Law of Nature'

"Thus the 'Law of Nature' stands as an eternal rule to all men, legislators as well as others. The rules that they make for other men's actions, must, as well as their own and other men's actions, be conformable to the 'Law of Nature', i.e. to the will of God, of which that is a declaration, and the fundamental law of nature being the preservation of mankind, no human sanction can be good, or valid against it."

[SOURCE: John Locke, "Second Treatise in Civil Government", Chapter-11, Section 134].

God in heaven is judge. He alone, it is true, is judge of the right.

[SOURCE: John Locke, "Second Treatise in Civil Government", Chapter-19, Section 241].



Thomas Jefferson:

--Jefferson rejected the orthodox Christianity of his day and was especially hostile to the Catholic Church as he saw it operate in France. Throughout his life Jefferson was intensely interested in theology, biblical study, and morality. As a landowner he played a role in governing his local Episcopal Church; in terms of belief he was inclined toward the religious philosophy of Christianity:

In private letters, Jefferson refers to himself as "Christian" (1803): "To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence....

Jefferson believed in the moral teachings of Christ and edited a compilation of Christ's teachings leaving out the miracles.Jefferson was firmly anticlerical saying that in "every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot...they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes." Source--



Thomas Paine:

With this one, I will give you credit, as he was anti-Christian, but still believed in God to a small extant.

--"But where, say some, is the king of America? I’ll tell you, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the royal brute of Great Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other. But lest any ill use should afterwards arise, let the crown at the conclusion of the ceremony be demolished, and scattered among the people whose right it is." Thomas Pain, Common Sense--









Funny enough, you fail to mention the rest of the founding fathers, besides the two that you could pull ant-Christianity quotes from.

Let's check out some signers of the Constitution, yes?

--Charles Carroll Catholic

Samuel Huntington Congregationalist

Roger Sherman Congregationalist

William Williams Congregationalist

Oliver Wolcott Congregationalist

Lyman Hall Congregationalist

Samuel Adams Congregationalist

John Hancock Congregationalist

Josiah Bartlett Congregationalist

William Whipple Congregationalist

William Ellery Congregationalist

John Adams Congregationalist; Unitarian

Robert Treat Paine Congregationalist; Unitarian

George Walton Episcopalian

John Penn Episcopalian

George Ross Episcopalian

Thomas Heyward Jr. Episcopalian

Thomas Lynch Jr. Episcopalian

Arthur Middleton Episcopalian

Edward Rutledge Episcopalian

Francis Lightfoot Lee Episcopalian

Richard Henry Lee Episcopalian

George Read Episcopalian

Caesar Rodney Episcopalian

Samuel Chase Episcopalian

William Paca Episcopalian

Thomas Stone Episcopalian

Elbridge Gerry Episcopalian

Francis Hopkinson Episcopalian

Francis Lewis Episcopalian

Lewis Morris Episcopalian

William Hooper Episcopalian

Robert Morris Episcopalian

John Morton Episcopalian

Stephen Hopkins Episcopalian

Carter Braxton Episcopalian

Benjamin Harrison Episcopalian

Thomas Nelson Jr. Episcopalian

George Wythe Episcopalian

Thomas Jefferson Episcopalian (Deist)

Benjamin Franklin Episcopalian (Deist)

Button Gwinnett Episcopalian; Congregationalist

James Wilson Episcopalian; Presbyterian

Joseph Hewes Quaker, Episcopalian

George Clymer Quaker, Episcopalian

Thomas McKean Presbyterian

Matthew Thornton Presbyterian

Abraham Clark Presbyterian

John Hart Presbyterian

Richard Stockton Presbyterian

John Witherspoon Presbyterian

William Floyd Presbyterian

Philip Livingston Presbyterian

James Smith Presbyterian

George Taylor Presbyterian

Benjamin Rush Presbyterian

(thx to SirMike for the quick list)--

So have at it. Let me see how you claim that all these men were not Christians, and try to twist Jefferson's words into something that he did not intend.


all radical republicans, promoters of a society ruled by man and not God, of liberty instead of tyranny, or any despotic monarchic ruled supposed to represent God's authority.


Look up where man got the right to rule, according to the enlightenment philosophers. From God. All of the enlightenment proponents will confirm that.

God is the sovereign authority. Not government. Not man. I can hear the appeals already. "God is not mentioned in the Constitution," they will say.

In the beginning God created mankind in His own image, placed man on the Land, gave man dominion, agency and possession. Dominion, Agency and Possession are the three elements that define Sovereignty. What God created no man has the capacity to remove. Your sovereign nature simply exists; there is nothing you can do about it. When you enter into a contract your sovereignty is not bound; quite the contrary, it is your sovereignty that binds the contract. It is your sovereign will that gives you the capacity to contract. Without sovereignty you could not enter into a valid contract. This Republic was designed, not to govern the people but to provide for a central body of government that could exercise the ability of our nation: to coin money, to regulate international and interstate traffic of goods and services, to better provide for a common defense of our nation from foreign encroachment and to secure the ability of the people to govern themselves and to protect their private land and property.

In this nation, other than God, there is no power greater than the will of the people. The sovereign people are supposed to be constitutionally secured to their right to pursue life, liberty, happiness and property to their heart's content.



edit on 7/14/2011 by Lemon.Fresh because: (no reason given)



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