Oh good god. Here w ego again
Originally posted by Echtelion
To get right to the facts and not waste your patience like most ATS members like to do with long, convoluted and incoherent introductions, here's the
The Treaty of Tripoli - 1797
This treaty was unanimously ratified by the US Senate
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character
of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against
any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
existing between the two countries.
And I say: BOOM!
Not only the Treaty clearly States that America is NOT a Christian Nation-State, but it EXPLICITLY declares that any war in the future against the
Muslims of the Barbary coast (which includes today's Libya) is totally illegal! Not that the current US administration cares about respecting the Law
and the Constitution, but just to let you know...
And I say BOOM. You fail at history and basic english comprehension.
The treaty is stating that Christianity is not the state religion of the United States, and therefore has no problems with dealing with Muslims/
At the time, The Muslim Barbary Powers (Tunis, Morocco, Algiers, and Tripoli) were warring against what they claimed to be the "Christian" nations
(England, France, Spain, Denmark, and the United States (notice . . . state religion of the first 4?).
Christianity was and is not the state religion.
That does not mean that our founding fathers and the documents thereof were not steeped in Christianity.
. . .
namely the Separation of Church and State.
. . .
A separation that means that the state can't force anyone to a certain church.
Funny how you anti-religious people fail at the first amendment. You get the first part right . . . the government can't establish a national
religion, but you fail on the next part "shall not prohibit the free exercise thereof."
This is the common philosophy school of David Hume, Diderot, Voltaire, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, John Locke, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine;
. . .
--The order of the universe proves an omnipotent mind.
Wherever I see order, I infer from experience that there, there hath
been Design and Contrivance . . . the same principle obliges me to infer an infinitely perfect Architect from the Infinite Art and Contrivance which
is displayed in the whole fabric of the universe.
[Found in Capaldi, see below]
The whole frame of nature bespeaks an intelligent author; and no rational enquirer can, after serious reflection, suspend his belief a moment with
regard to the primary principles of genuine Theism and Religion . . .
Were men led into the apprehension of invisible, intelligent power by a contemplation of the works of nature, they could never possibly entertain any
conception but of one single being, who bestowed existence and order on this vast machine, and adjusted all its parts, according to one regular plan
or connected system . . .
All things of the universe are evidently of a piece. Every thing is
adjusted to every thing. One design prevails throughout the whole. And this uniformity leads the mind to acknowledge one author.
Philo and Cleanthes, in the Dialogues accept the argument from design. Hume scholar Nicholas Capaldi states that:
All of the characters in the Dialogues speak for Hume, and the message of the Dialogues is that morality is independent of religion.
(David Hume, Boston: G.K. Hall & Co., 1975, ch. 9, 188-97; Capaldi is an internationally-known Hume expert and founder of the Hume Society)
Capaldi states in the above section:
Hume believed in the existence of God. He rejected the ontological argument. He accepted in one form the argument from design. God exists, but his
properties are unknown and unknowable by us . . . In none of his writings does Hume say or imply that he does not accept the existence of God. On the
contrary, Hume says in several places that he accepts the existence of God . . .
Guided by basic misunderstandings of Hume's position on causality or at the very least the negative aspects of Hume's skepticism, most readers
assume that the central question is one concerning God's existence.--
--"In the Pensees, Diderot defends a Deistic conception of God as essential to the explanation of the function of the natural universe, and as the
necessary basis for morality. Yet while rejecting Atheism, he is strongly tempted by it, as it constitutes a more honest and intellectual attitude
than Deism." Diderot's politics: A study of the evolution of Diderot's political thought ...
By Anthony Strugnell pg. 134--
--All sects are different, because they come from men; morality is everywhere the same, because it comes from God. - Voltaire
--"What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and
intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason."- Voltaire
--It does not require great art, or magnificently trained eloquence, to prove that Christians should tolerate each other. I, however, am going
further: I say that we should regard all men as our brothers. What? The Turk my brother? The Chinaman my brother? The Jew? The Siam? Yes, without
doubt; are we not all children of the same father and creatures of the same God?"-Voltaire--
--Having converted to Roman Catholicism early in life and returned to the austere Calvinism of his native Geneva as part of his period of moral
reform, Rousseau maintained a profession of that religious philosophy and of John Calvin as a modern lawgiver throughout the remainder of his life
"I perceive God everywhere in His works. I sense Him in me; I see Him all around me." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau
“God made me and broke the mold.”- Jean-Jacques Rousseau
"Yes, if the life and death of Socrates are those of a wise man, the life and death of Jesus are those of a god."- Jean-Jacques Rousseau
"“The Bible is one of the greatest blessings bestowed by God on the children of men.- It has God for its author; salvation for its end, and truth
without any mixture for its matter.- It is all pure.” - John Locke
"John Locke defines 'Law of Nature'
"Thus the 'Law of Nature' stands as an eternal rule to all men, legislators as well as others. The rules that they make for other men's actions, must,
as well as their own and other men's actions, be conformable to the 'Law of Nature', i.e. to the will of God, of which that is a declaration, and the
fundamental law of nature being the preservation of mankind, no human sanction can be good, or valid against it."
[SOURCE: John Locke, "Second Treatise in Civil Government", Chapter-11, Section 134].
God in heaven is judge. He alone, it is true, is judge of the right.
[SOURCE: John Locke, "Second Treatise in Civil Government", Chapter-19, Section 241].
--Jefferson rejected the orthodox Christianity of his day and was especially hostile to the Catholic Church as he saw it operate in France. Throughout
his life Jefferson was intensely interested in theology, biblical study, and morality. As a landowner he played a role in governing his local
Episcopal Church; in terms of belief he was inclined toward the religious philosophy of Christianity:
In private letters, Jefferson refers to himself as "Christian" (1803): "To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the
genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in
preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence....
Jefferson believed in the moral teachings of Christ and edited a compilation of Christ's teachings leaving out the miracles.Jefferson was firmly
anticlerical saying that in "every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot...they have
perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their
With this one, I will give you credit, as he was anti-Christian, but still believed in God to a small extant.
--"But where, say some, is the king of America? I’ll tell you, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the royal brute of Great
Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be
brought forth placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of
monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there
ought to be no other. But lest any ill use should afterwards arise, let the crown at the conclusion of the ceremony be demolished, and scattered among
the people whose right it is." Thomas Pain, Common Sense--
Funny enough, you fail to mention the rest of the founding fathers, besides the two that you could pull ant-Christianity quotes from.
Let's check out some signers of the Constitution, yes?
--Charles Carroll Catholic
Samuel Huntington Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Congregationalist
William Williams Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Congregationalist
John Hancock Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett Congregationalist
William Whipple Congregationalist
William Ellery Congregationalist
John Adams Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Episcopalian
John Penn Episcopalian
George Ross Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Episcopalian
George Read Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Episcopalian
William Paca Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson Episcopalian
Francis Lewis Episcopalian
Lewis Morris Episcopalian
William Hooper Episcopalian
Robert Morris Episcopalian
John Morton Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Episcopalian
George Wythe Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton Presbyterian
Abraham Clark Presbyterian
John Hart Presbyterian
Richard Stockton Presbyterian
John Witherspoon Presbyterian
William Floyd Presbyterian
Philip Livingston Presbyterian
James Smith Presbyterian
George Taylor Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Presbyterian
(thx to SirMike for the quick list)
So have at it. Let me see how you claim that all these men were not Christians, and try to twist Jefferson's words into something that he did not
all radical republicans, promoters of a society ruled by man and not God, of liberty instead of tyranny, or any despotic monarchic ruled
supposed to represent God's authority.
Look up where man got the right to rule, according to the enlightenment philosophers. From God. All of the enlightenment proponents will confirm
God is the sovereign authority. Not government. Not man. I can hear the appeals already. "God is not mentioned in the Constitution," they will say.
In the beginning God created mankind in His own image, placed man on the Land, gave man dominion, agency and possession. Dominion, Agency and
Possession are the three elements that define Sovereignty. What God created no man has the capacity to remove. Your sovereign nature simply exists;
there is nothing you can do about it. When you enter into a contract your sovereignty is not bound; quite the contrary, it is your sovereignty that
binds the contract. It is your sovereign will that gives you the capacity to contract. Without sovereignty you could not enter into a valid contract.
This Republic was designed, not to govern the people but to provide for a central body of government that could exercise the ability of our nation: to
coin money, to regulate international and interstate traffic of goods and services, to better provide for a common defense of our nation from foreign
encroachment and to secure the ability of the people to govern themselves and to protect their private land and property.
In this nation, other than God, there is no power greater than the will of the people. The sovereign people are supposed to be constitutionally
secured to their right to pursue life, liberty, happiness and property to their heart's content.
edit on 7/14/2011 by Lemon.Fresh because: (no reason given)