The role of Zionism during the Holocaust.

This is an excerpt from the site jewsagainstzionism.com. It has to do with what many Orthodox and non Ortho Jews believe was responsible for the Holocaust, from a religious view.

They also have very clever ideas as to the political machinations that the Zionists used to secure their "promised land".

From its' inception, many rabbis warned of the potential dangers of Zionism and openly declared that all Jews loyal to G-d should stay away from it like one would from fire. They made their opinions clear to their congregants and to the general public. Their message was that Zionism is a chauvinistic racist phenomenon which has absolutely naught to do with Judaism. They publicly expressed that Zionism would definitely be detrimental to the well being of Jews and Gentiles and that its effects on the Jewish religion would be nothing other than destructive. Further, it would taint the reputation of Jewry as a whole and would cause utter confusion in the Jewish and non-Jewish communities. Judaism is a religion. Judaism is not a race or a nationality. That was and still remains the consensus amongst the rabbis.

We were given the Holy Land by G-d in order to be able to study and practice the Torah without disturbance and to attain levels of holiness difficult to attain outside of the Holy Land. We abused the privilege and we were expelled. That is exactly what all Jews say in their prayers on every Jewish festival, "Umipnay chatoenu golinu mayartsaynu" - "Because of our sins we were expelled from our land".

We have been forsworn by G-d "not to enter the Holy Land as a body before the predestined time", "not to rebel against the nations", to be loyal citizens, not to do anything against the will of any nation or its honour, not to seek vengeance, discord, restitution or compensation; "not to leave exile ahead of time." On the contrary; we have to be humble and accept the yoke of exile. To violate the oaths would result in "your flesh will be made prey as the deer and the antelope in the forest," and the redemption will be delayed.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...




EX Tags, Link.

Well said, sir. Judaism as a faith is far more pure and holy than Christianity or Islam, and much older. I firmly believe the original Shepardic Jews were descendants of the tribes of Sumer, some of the oldest peoples on the planet. However, Judaism was firmly attached to a certain race of people, the Hebrews and Israel was promised to them (not the Israel of today but a tiny plot of land on the Israel/Lebanon border). The current inhabitants of the false state of Israel have no claim to these artificial borders and its existence has fueled Middle Eastern rage for half a century. I'm not opposed to the existence of a state of Israel along 1948 lines but even that was generous. Palestine should be Gaza, all of southen Israel and the West Bank with Israel being the portion of land above Gaza and to the west of the West Bank.

Zionism is going to destroy this world. And in the post-apocalyse world I shall smite every zionist I meet with an AK-47.

reply to post by LongPatrol


I cetainly agree with this:

From its' inception, many rabbis warned of the potential dangers of Zionism and openly declared that all Jews loyal to G-d should stay away from it like one would from fire. They made their opinions clear to their congregants and to the general public. Their message was that Zionism is a chauvinistic racist phenomenon which has absolutely naught to do with Judaism. They publicly expressed that Zionism would definitely be detrimental to the well being of Jews and Gentiles and that its effects on the Jewish religion would be nothing other than destructive. Further, it would taint the reputation of Jewry as a whole and would cause utter confusion in the Jewish and non-Jewish communities. Judaism is a religion. Judaism is not a race or a nationality. That was and still remains the consensus amongst the rabbis.

But I do not see how Zionism was the cause or a factor for the Nazi Holocaust. As far as I am concerned they are to completely seperate events. The Nazi's carred not for the Arabs of Palestine, but rather had their own racist ideals, which led them to the path of the dessimation of European Jewry. The Nazi Holocaust is a sad event in History, but it is in now way (atleast in my belief) the Jews fault.

We must stop putting the blame on the Jews for everything. Yes, I believe Zionism equates to racism (as decreed by the UN general assembelly), however I am sick of people laying the blame for everything that happens on the Jews. This causes a vicious anti-Semetic cycle, which led to the climax of the Nazi holocaust.

We must, accept that the Jews are not going anywhere, and we as gentiles must learn to peacefully co-exist amonst them. Thus we should give them what they are entitled to, under international law. A Jewish state under the pre-June 1967 borders, next to a Palestinian state under the pre-June 1967 borders.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


When Europe began to ostrasize the Jews', the Zionists became ( unwantedly) the "voice" of the Jews in Europe.

When the Zionist reps refused all deals that could have saved ALL of the Euro Jews, Hitler became infuriated. The Zionists would only accept Palestine as a refugee settlement.

The Zionists also caused the Jewish boycott which is believed to have directly influncenced Hitlter's decision to implement the Final Solution. So yes, Zionist's had a VERY big part in causing, and failing to prevent, the greatest slaughter of living things this Earth has ever seen.

reply to post by LongPatrol


Star anf flag for you my friend, i have been saying the same here aa ATS since a long time, your post is very well writed and clear and i hope many will soon understand why Zionism is NOT Judaism. I posted alot about it in a very good thread here titled ' All Roads Lead to Rome ' where i detailed the relations between Rome and Zionism.

Let the truth be declared. The use of the Name "ISRAEL" by that State is a complete falsification. The People of Israel have nothing to do with that State. Zionism and its State have no share and no part in the true ISRAEL.

Tks
Shalom

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


None of you are able to understand or properly interpret anything said about waht Judaism or Zionism is, because you dont enough about either Judaism or Zionism.....


Is zionism racist?? How so? Are Americans racist? Are Polish racist? Are Philipinos racist???

Do you know WHY the Jewish state was established? Do you know why Herzl decided to write the Jewish state; on what historical and cultural premises this idea finally took shape?? Look up the French revolution. look up the promises the french made to the Jews; of civil liberty. Of equal rights. As clermont-tonnere said "We must refuse everything to the Jews as a nation and accord everything to Jews as individuals.". Seems fair, right? Legitimate? The Jews of late 18th century france, even the orthodox embraced this notion. They said Halakah and state can work hand in hand. Did it? No. it didnt.

However, the reactionaries did not cease their agitations, and the Jews were subjected to much suffering during the Reign of Terror

Forty-nine Jews were imprisoned at Paris as suspects; nine of them were executed.

Dreyfus Affair

Look at the czarist persecutions of Jews in the 18th and 19th centuries en.wikipedia.org... This too formed the background for why Herzl wrote the Jewish State.

The Jewish state came into being because it was NEEDED to protect Jews from their gentile tormentors. Doesnt matter in what age, this has existed. Was the Jewish state limited to just religious Jews? No. Because antisemitism wasnt limited to just religious Jews. ALL Jews felt the burden of persecution, and so the state was made to be their haven.

reply to post by dontreally

Is zionism racist?? How so? Are Americans racist? Are Polish racist? Are Philipinos racist???

Americans/Polish/Philipinos are neither religious nor political leanings.

reply to post by Zamini


You are an ignoramus.

Of course being polish is political. It is a political distinction. Those who are poles, speak polish live in the polish state. And is this not a racial distinction?Link

I was clearly referring to the UN resolution 3379 of 1975 that branded zionism as racism. (subsequently revoked in 1991)...

From my thread: Did the Jews Declare War on Germany in 1933?

Hiter was at war with the Jews since 1933 and that's why by 1939 so many had fled to other countries, this war had put them in a bad situation. more and more Jews would learn about the Zionist movement, many will be making their way to Palestine as a safe haven, they were escorted by the British/French. this whole act was a Zionist plan, the Jews who refused to leave their home would have to deal with Hitlers army, after all they are at war. this process filtered out the Jews who supported the Zionist movement and brought them to Palestine while eliminating the true Jews.

reply to post by RizeorDie


very interesting Link, here is the OP video of the thread, it worth being post again imo, Zionism is very degerous for the stability in the middle east and for world peace.

reply to post by dontreally


Zionism is violently racist *Snip*. The Zionists believe that anyone not spending their free time securing their disgusting little goals are labeled " Goyim" which happens to mean "human cattle."

They oft quote scripture that refers to gentiles as "animals" and "worthless others". How is that not racist? Take your Zion lust somewhere else ya?




Mod Edit: Personal comments removed. Please see Terms and Conditions of Use section 16) Behaviour and remember to go after the ball, not the player. Thank you - Jak

Originally posted by LongPatrol
reply to post by dontreally

 

Zionism is violently racist you fool. The Zionists believe that anyone not spending their free time securing their disgusting little goals are labeled " Goyim" which happens to mean "human cattle."

They oft quote scripture that refers to gentiles as "animals" and "worthless others". How is that not racist? Take your Zion lust somewhere else ya?

Really?
And you have the audacity to call Dontreally a fool?

Genesis 12:2: “I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

In Hebrew, ve'escha le GOY gadol. "וְאֶעֶשְׂךָ לְגוֹי גָּדוֹל"

Goy means a nation or people. Goyim is Plural of Goy.

reply to post by gravitational


Look up its Hasidic meaning in the Babalonian exile, *Snip*
You would agree with his glorification of the world destroying peoples who wish to worship at their evil rock, and will do anything to secure this future for their progeny.





Mod Edit: Personal comments removed. Please see Terms and Conditions of Use section 16) Behaviour and remember to go after the ball, not the player. Thank you - Jak

reply to post by dontreally


I myself believe the Jews are entitled to their own state under the pre June-1967 borders. No being Polish is neither a religion nor a political leaning. Being Polish means you belong to the State of Poland. Poland is not a nation, it is a governed entity, which means that being a member of the state of Poland does not mean you are culturaly, historically, religously hegemonic.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


O..K.......

WHY DO THE JEWS GET A COUNTRY THAT THEY NEVER, NEVER OWNED??

They have killed scores of people in our time, and even more in historical transgressions against the Trans-Jordan people!

THEY ARE FROM EUROPE!!!!! THERE IS NO ISRAEL!!!

How can you justify the murderous population control of the occupied territories??

You simply cannot be that daft friend, I have found your posts to be among the most resonable and relevant on the Site. How can you really believe in this?

reply to post by LongPatrol


Lol you may be mistaken in regards to my political opinion. I disagree and am wholy against the occupation of the West Bank. I believe Gaza and the West Bank should be sovereign Palestinian territories which compromise a Palestinian state. However, Israel is legally entitled to the territory it governed prior the the June-1967 war, thus I have no legal, rational or reasonable argument to dismiss the existence of a Jewish state alongside a Palestinian state under the international borders which existed prior to the June-1967 war.

I am gainst the occupation and for the establishment of a Palestinian state under the legal territories such an entity is entitled to. Just incase you are unaware or uninformed of the geographic borders.
This is what is legal under international law: (the territories under Egyptian and Jordanian control are the territories which should constitue a Palestinian state



Israel currently occupies the West Bank and also has in place settelments which continue to expand: I am against both of these.





This is the UN partition plan, which collapsed with the 1948 Israeli war of Independence:



Chronological map of Israeli expansion and current Israeli occupation of the West Bank:



The last image shows Israeli territory in 1999. However Benjamin Netanyahu has increased the settelments in the West Bank and denounced the Oslo II accords. He refuses to hand over the West Bank to a Palestinian authority.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


Im sorry, but that land was parceld due to DOCUMENTED Zionist lobbying in the British Gov.

They had ABSOLUTELY no right to invade the way they did in the 1940's and set up concentration centers for the indigenous population.

reply to post by LongPatrol


I wholly agree: The founding of the Jewish state in Israel was poorly planned and it was a violent creation. I could not in any sense agree more with you here. However, there is no way I can advocate entirely de-assembling the state of Israel. Yes Israel must withdraw from all territory occupied during the June-1967 war, however if one were to entreily remove the Jewish state, where would it's 7,000,000 inhabitants go? This is the practical answer to the question. Secondly I constantly advocate and cite international law on these forums, thus I myself must adhere to the principles of these laws and under these laws the government of Israel has legal authority over the territory it controled prior to the June-1967 war.

LongPatrol I understand you argument and I can in some sense relate to your ideology: However I have been reading into this conflict and studying economics and international politics, for far too long, to agree with it on a practical, rational and legal basis. I am a realist and in accordance with this I understand that Israel is here to stay and it is protected under international law. However I also understand that the only way a just lasting peace will be enacted is if Israel adheres to international law, finds a resolution for the Israel-Palestinian conflict in accordance with international law, resolves the refugee problem in accordance with international law and stop the agressive actions while acting only is self defence.

Sir, I understand your argument and I can sympathize with it, but as you contrinue to expand your knowledge you will understand that it unrealistic. The Jews have suffered for thousands of years, as have other nations, races and religions. The creation of a Jewish state in their eyes is the only way they see fit to protect therselves as they believe that no Gentile can keep them safe. This is evident in the realist, revionist-Zionist readings of Ze-ev Jabotinsky. I honestly sympathise with the Jewish nations and I understand the realism of the argument stating that they need to establish a defined geographic state to keep themselves safe. However once they exceed their legal entitlment they lose both legitamacy, security while creating insecurity in their Arab counterparts.

This is the security dilema: One state increases their level of power in order to escape the power of other states, however in the process they create insecurity in other states forcing them to focus on counter-measures which they see as self defence: This creates a vicous cycle of power acquisition and insecurity. My contention would be that Israel since it's creation has faced this security dilema and many if not most of the measures they have taken to achieve internal security or maximum regional power status, has been both counter-productive and detremental to their success.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


I assure you that my ideology is quite sound.

Make israel into trans-jordan, and give palestinians equal rights in the gov ( the jewish gov). That is not to much to ask considering the alternative. ( The Last World War)

If israel will not accept peace, then they will have to be coerced using force. They cannot be allowed to destroy the planet.

Do you even understand what the stakes are when you talk Israel??? Billions could die because of a Zionist aggressed war. There is precendent my friend.

reply to post by LongPatrol


Are you saying that we make this:


Into a Palestinian state? I have heard people say that the East Bank or West Jordan should be utilized to create a Palestinian state (infact Israel was a proponenst of Jordan is Palestine under the Begin government). I understand the reason behind this argument, as much of the East Bank is inhabited by Palestinian refugees, but I haven't seen much advocation of making Trans-Jordan into a Palestinian state. Are you saying we should make Jordan

into a Palestinian state? If so what is to be done with Gaza?

Creating a bi-national state (incoporating both the Jews and the Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims) would have difficulties as if it were governed by the Jews it couldn't maintain a democratic tradition and if it were governed by the Arabs it could't maintain a democratic tradition. If it were trully democratic, this would be unnecceptable to many Jews and Zionists as there would no longer be a Jewish safe heavan known as a Jewish state. This is exactly what the Zionists and many Jews do not want.

A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict is difficult. Many like you want to see a one-state solution as do many Zionists (however they want it under Jewish control with Jewish military hegemony). I see this solution as un-realistic as both sides are fundementally divided. I see a two-state solution under international law the only practical and rational solution.