Do angels have a moral sense?

A question a collegue of mine and I have been discussing lately has driven me hear to get all your takes.

The question was: Do angels have a moral sense, the knowledge of good and evil?

If not, why were a 1/3 of them cast down to Earth? For they did not have the understanding that they were committing sin and going against god.

If they do, how did they come upon this knowledge? Was it bestowed upon them at creation? Doesn't seem quite fair that we had to disobey god and bring all of the suffering upon us to learn something that was just given to the angels.

Or... of course the alternative would be that we are not the first creation of god to have gone through this whole ordeal. Thus making our lives here upon earth, almost an initiation into the realm of god that all heavenly beings at one time had experienced.

There isn't a whole lot spoken of about the angels, so it opens the door for this discussion.

I am curious to hear all your ideas on the matter.

reply to post by UnknownPhilosopher


Angels are aliens..
Gods are aliens

reply to post by mb2591


Very possible

For arguments sake, I am using more of the traditional ideology.

for arguments sake prove they exist..


then we can debate thier emotional and moral standings...

Originally posted by UnknownPhilosopher
reply to post by mb2591

 

Very possible

For arguments sake, I am using more of the traditional ideology.

edit on 28-6-2011 by UnknownPhilosopher because: (no reason given)

and what ideology is that?

"To those who may think it impossible that spirits of high degree should bind themselves to a task so laborious and demanding so much patience on their part, we reply, that we influence your souls while at many millions of leagues from you. To us, space is nothing; and, while living in another world, our spirits preserve their connection with yours. We possess qualities of which you can form no idea; but be sure that God has not imposed upon us a task above our strength, and that He has not abandoned you upon the earth without friends and without support. Every guardian-angel has his ward, over whom he watches as a father watches over his child: he rejoices when he sees him following the right road; he mourns when his counsels are neglected.

"Do not fear to weary us with your questions. Remain, on the contrary, always in connection with us: you will thus be stronger and happier. It is this communication between each man and his familiar spirit that will eventually make all men mediums, and drive out incredulity from your world. You who have received instruction, instruct in your turn: you who are possessed of talents, raise your brethren. You know not how great a work you accomplish by so doing; it is the work of Christ, the work imposed on you by God. Why has God given you intelligence and knowledge, if not to share them with your brethren, to aid them to advance on the road that leads to eternal felicity?"

Read this book. I beg you. It will enlighten you. www.spiritwritings.com...

reply to post by okamitengu




Not what I am trying to do here.

Arguments sake, assume they are real.

This is a theoretical question.

I feel discussions like this are like...................
debating how many angels can dance on a pinhead.
you might as well ask what an angel is.
some sort energy being?
A creature with wings?
A product of mankind's imagination?

reply to post by ELahrairah


Of what value is it to discuss these things. Their appearance isn't the discussion.

reply to post by agentblue


Traditional christian ideology. Angels = gods servants, warriors, messengers, etc....

reply to post by UnknownPhilosopher


What about angels in the Islamic or Judaic tradition?
Apparently Judaism claims that angels have no free will and satan is simply another angel used by god to test people and is not an adversary to god like the christian traditions depiction of him.
Why keep the debate to just one of the three abrahamic religions it seems kind of limiting?
I'm sure even within the christian traditions there are many theological views on the nature of angels.

I seem to remember learning in college, that in the beginning that the angles were like advocates ad litum to observe man and report back to god and and during this time they got to familiar with man even consorting sexually with "the daughters of men" and producing children. These all seem like things they would not have done with out emotion and some sense of right or wrong,. They lost their golden ticket to heaven so obviously god thought what they did was out of line. If they had no concept of right or wrong god would have know that and might have taken it easier on them. Also when the war between the angles faithful to god and those who followed satan the angles took sides. Just my thoughts. Maybe some one can jog my memory as to where the first story comes from. Think is was the Jewish faith.

It really depends

Ultimately angels are designed to be servants of god...so that implies no real free will, they are just following orders.

However, lucifer did rise up against god to try and take over the joint for a variety of reasons...so that implies free will, and moral judgement..

So, ya...going to have to go with yes, they do have moral judgement, but they also see things not them and higher to be insects (aka, us)...and pretty much won't blink when ordered to destroy us...so, a different concept of morals perhaps...

Originally posted by Ladysophiaofsandoz
I seem to remember learning in college, that in the beginning that the angles were like advocates ad litum to observe man and report back to god and and during this time they got to familiar with man even consorting sexually with "the daughters of men" and producing children. These all seem like things they would not have done with out emotion and some sense of right or wrong,. They lost their golden ticket to heaven so obviously god thought what they did was out of line.

Actually, what your discussing is genesis 6, and there is no actual evidence that god was upset about this breeding...actually, quite the opposite argument can be made (the outcome of the sons of god mating with the daughters of men = heros.

eventually there is trouble, but suggesting the breeding is what ticked god off is an assumption...it says shortly after god was upset that =men= were evil and wicked and regretted making em.

I think, if you look at it in a more proper sense...they may have been told to go breed with them, however, a few heros here and there didn't stem the tide of evil in men.

Sounds like the kind of thing jealous siblings would do.

Originally posted by Ladysophiaofsandoz
Sounds like the kind of thing jealous siblings would do.

More like a medieval structured organization where nobody advances in rank and the underlings to the lord of the land became sick of endless stationing...finally they blew a gasket when he outsourced a upper managment position.

Being human, I say, suck it up
But being logical, I can see why that upset them...I would be pretty ticked off also...serve for an eternity before perfectly, then the boss decides to hire on someone and put him as VP, even though the person is clearly incapable of taking on the tasks.

I thought Ats is about denying ignorance? yet here is another thread about angels?
I think il start one about the easter bunny. see how many flags i get sheesh.

One possibility I thought up a while back is that angels would need some way to understand evil if they were confronted by it somehow, so there was a special tree they could go to gain that understanding. Angels being naturally not prone to being inclined to ever do anything other than to follow instructions would have needed an especially strong dose to have an affect. If a man was to make use of that same tree, it would most likely throw them for a loop to actually become evil, or to very soon after, die.
Just an idea and I don't necessarily believe it. I also have to consider the possibility that the tree was put there by Satan and they did not want to say that in the Bible because they did not want people asking why God could not just get rid of it.
I don't think that the common angel has the same sort of true evil thoughts that a human is capable of. They, like I said, are hard-wired to do what they are told, and their mistake was to continue to take orders from Lucifer after he turned bad, instead of following God's warning to break away from him.
The exception would be the higher order angels, such as Lucifer, who had greater capabilities, including the possibility to eventually turn those capabilities into doing things in a completely independent sort of way. If he entertained thoughts of self-aggrandizement, he could come to the point where it went over the line and became rebellion.

Originally posted by Elvis Hendrix
I thought Ats is about denying ignorance? yet here is another thread about angels?
I think il start one about the easter bunny. see how many flags i get sheesh.

Did you ever stop to think that it is your version or perception of what an angel is ignorant and ridiculous?

Things dont need you to believe in them to exist.

reply to post by UnknownPhilosopher


Do angels have to work for their place in heaven?

Why didn't he create angels with free will and thus "original sin"? Is this a sick experiment or something? "created sick, and ordered to be well".