Atheists, be honest. We know it, you know it.

reply to post by TylerDurden2U


you have a short memory. im not catholic. what could i possibly do that would jeopardize my salvation or freedom in the usa by following the ten commandments, and Jesus' teachings. ( give to ceasar what is ceasars)???? try to live life in the examples of Jesus' parables and follow the law(my countries and my God). I know i fall short, and i honestly try to do better. when i confess my sins, its easy to remember the next time temptation comes around. when I confess my sins in private to God, i am honest. so if you say what you mean, and mean what you say, religion isnt a problem at all.

reply to post by JR MacBeth


u have a short memory. im not catholic. what could i possibly do that would jeopardize my salvation or freedom in the usa by following the ten commandments, and Jesus' teachings. ( give to ceasar what is ceasars)???? try to live life in the examples of Jesus' parables and follow the law(my countries and my God). I know i fall short, and i honestly try to do better. when i confess my sins, its easy to remember the next time temptation comes around. when I confess my sins in private to God, i am honest. so if you say what you mean, and mean what you say, faith in God isnt a problem at all.

Originally posted by TylerDurden2U
reply to post by JR MacBeth

 

u have a short memory. im not catholic. what could i possibly do that would jeopardize my salvation or freedom in the usa by following the ten commandments, and Jesus' teachings. ( give to ceasar what is ceasars)???? try to live life in the examples of Jesus' parables and follow the law(my countries and my God). I know i fall short, and i honestly try to do better. when i confess my sins, its easy to remember the next time temptation comes around. when I confess my sins in private to God, i am honest. so if you say what you mean, and mean what you say, faith in God isnt a problem at all.

Whoa Tyler, I can't imagine how you must feel, being taken for a...CATHOLIC!!

Actually, you have no idea what Catholics believe, and I would pity the poor fellow who you decided was Catholic, considering your intense negative feelings about them. They appear to the the big "enemy" in your mind, or Satan's chief minions, or something.

Just to clear up your substantial confusion, no one accused you of being anything so loathsome as a Catholic! The only thing I can see why you would react this way is because the example I used about blood products, I guess it's one more terrible thing on your long list of Catholic crimes. But, they're not the ones that believe that, just as they don't "pray to beads on a string" either. God only knows what other silliness you believe about various groups.

OK, so you are not a Catholic! What are you then? Do you even know?

This next part isn't likely to help "you" in particular, but let me explain a bit nonetheless. From an agnostic or atheist standpoint, Catholics, and Protestants, and lots of other groups with various labels who claim to "follow Christ", or Jesus or some approximation, you're ALL "Christian", for purposes of rudimentary classification.

Notwithstanding my short memory, it looks as if you imagine that you are a true Christian, and these other groups, (like Catholics) are not. That's fine. But it's actually either ignorant, or dishonest, to simply classify yourself as a mere "Christian".

I understand that it's a popular thing to do of course, and in the past few decades, this thing has really taken off. Early on, you had some "Christians", mostly of a "Protestant" background, who decided at some point that their historical connection to the ancient European church ("Catholic") was irksome, so they sought some distance.

Initially, this new "movement" labeled itself variations of the word "inter-denominational".

At some point, it occurred to the brighter bulbs that continuing to call yourself a "denomination" was falling into "the trap" (the Devil's, presumably). SO, they got "smart", and coined a new term: "non-denominational".

Better perhaps, considering their intentions, but actually truth isn't served by this approach, IMO. Why? Because it denies their doctrinal "heritage", ala 1984-style word games.

I'm not putting this "kind" of Christian down, I know they are legion, but that old saying says, "To thine own self be true." Why not at least admit your roots? Why try to rewrite history, at such a late date?

It's embarrassing when you think about it, but the Old European Church (Catholic) is indeed the "mother" of what came later. Arguable? Sure, like anything else. But then, I'm agnostic, so who cares?

Back to you. Clearly, not everyone is ready for information. A lot of times ATS members may want to help others out, and even if all of what I said flew right over your head, hopefully, others might get something out of the discussion.

I leave you with this: "What KIND of Christian do you think you are?" Please don't answer something like "good", or "true", those words have nothing to do with your doctrinal heritage. Figure it out, and in the process, trace the history back. When you get to the Catholic Church, let me know!

JR

PS: I don't personally care what "kind" you are BTW, it's more for YOU to discover something, within the murky waters you simply call "faith".

reply to post by Lionhearte


id rather rule in hell than serve in heaven. # your dead pallid god. it mens nothing to me in the face of the true almighty yog sototh. for he is one in all and nothing

reply to post by Lionhearte

You don't know what true Christianity is about.. because you're not a part of our family.

Actually many of them including myself were a part of the "family"... The problem is when you go to church, 90% of the time, they tell you what to read. When you actually read the bible for yourself, you'll find most denominations haven't got a clue.

I had no belief in God when i was part of the "family"... it was only after i went searching for answers they didn't have that i found my beliefs.

A lot of atheists know just as much about the bible as any christian does, if not more.

I think Gandhi said it best...

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

Sad but true...

reply to post by Akragon

A lot of atheists know just as much about the bible as any christian does, if not more.

I have found that this is true, for the most part.

Many Westerners have familiarity with the old religion, many have family still who are believers, many have even been raised as Christians of various sorts.

By the time they have stepped away from all that, they have been on a journey that, by it's nature, often requires far more from the seeker, than the comfortable fellow in the pew.

Many go on to learn even more, exploring other religions, other traditions, maybe even Eastern philosophy.

It's much like what a Jewish friend of mine once mentioned years ago. He said that he felt knew more about Christianity than the majority of Christians he had run into. Yes, I suppose I'd like to think that I was the exception, but he piqued my curiosity nonetheless, and I wondered if maybe he had an interest, that caused him to study it.

His explanation wasn't quite what Christians might imagine about the "curious Jew", as he put it. He said he didn't need to be curious, he was surrounded by a dominant culture from "Easter to stinking Santa Claus", which required him to know things about "us", while we were required to know very little about his minority religion / culture. Of course he know more about us, than we did about him, because we mostly hadn't even begun to care about his beliefs.

His was an "advantage" you might say, that allowed him to observe various "brands" of Christianity from afar, so-to-speak. Long story short, he was the first person I heard the famous Gandhi quote you mentioned (which reminded me of this old friend from years ago).

Christians should be less presumptuous about their imagined levels of knowledge, just because they are believers, who may know a verse or two from their Bibles. You literally may not know who you're dealing with. The next time you run into an "atheist", could be you just found a former pastor or priest! Sure, take a poke at their personal lives maybe, note the cigarette in the hand, whatever. It may mean nothing at all, in spite of what they have always told you. In fact, could be they really did honestly take a look at what they believed.

To the Christian out there, I would ask: How much have you truly studied your "faith", from outside their box? Have you ever honestly tried to walk in those other moccasins?

I'd like to think that Jesus might recommend that everyone tries walking in those other moccasins for a bit.

It might make all the difference in the world.

JR

reply to post by JR MacBeth

To the Christian out there, I would ask: How much have you truly studied your "faith", from outside their box?

the real question is, how much have learned on your own as opposed to sitting there and letting someone else tell you what to believe.

Theres another thread i read recently that said this pastor was telling his.... followers(cult?) that everything other then baptist beliefs are "of the devil"... That kind of garbage is why religion is so detrimental, to our world.

People follow others beliefs because they have a gift for speaking. The general population is weak minded, and need something to believe in. And unfortunatly these idiots (sorry) come along and turn them into judgemental morons, they end up spreading their crap like a bloody virus. And before you know it you have a mass of them.

Religion is based around the blind leading the blind... Intelligent people decieving the masses and exploiting the average persons "fear of God" or the unknown for their own gain

The problem is when you go to church, 90% of the time, they tell you what to read

Nice figures.

....so are you an Atheist?

Or do you believe in a creator, a beginner, a starter? (Deist)

Or do you claim to understand and know the creator's thoughts, wishes, and desires of a species within the suberbs of the Milky Way gallaxy? (Theist)

Or perhaps you're one of those people who are difficult to debate with; and just say "i don't have any labels".

Before you reply with "i don't need a label" consider the following;

I don't like (or need) a label for my lack of belief (Atheism); i don't need one for my lack of belief in astrology, or unicorns. But for the purpose of debate, it serves as an idicator for your specific belief (or lack of belief) in a deity.

reply to post by Akragon

Religion is based around the blind leading the blind... Intelligent people decieving the masses and exploiting the average persons "fear of God" or the unknown for their own gain

Very well put, IMO.

Many years ago, my first girlfriend was a Baptist girl. Of course, eventually I went to church with her. It wasn't long before I figured out that this group wasn't very tolerant. Her family acted "normal", but only at first. It was clear the thing wasn't going to work. Yes, there are some out there that just can't live and let live.

But, religion isn't all bad of course. Many people seem to really need it. Maybe the people who run the world realized many important truths about human nature millennia ago, and just went with it. Obviously, we all fear the unknown, and no one knows what happens after death, etc. A smart person in charge could easily exploit these givens.

Probably they didn't always merely "exploit". Maybe they came to believe that the masses were more easily managed, if they could just have enough fear of punishment. So, even when Massa isn't looking, is it OK to take too much of a break? Certainly not! Because God still sees you! No doubt, when Massa came around a corner, and saw the sweaty slave toiling away, his heart swelled with pride. He would be sure to tell his children about the "secret" of religion being bogus, but the slaves' children? No chance!

It's only fairly recently that more than a handful of proles got on the other end of the game. But things are so fragile. It wouldn't take much for even the small gains some of us have made, to disappear. Our masters could laugh again, as we worried about much insignificant nonsense, whilst we performed our labor.

So, while religion isn't all bad, maybe people really do steal less when no one is looking. Maybe most people sleep better when they know they have a powerful Friend Upstairs, in their mostly powerless lives.

But, I think it's more bad, than good, mainly because the future remains in jeopardy. Do I really want my grandchildren sinking back into a dark age? It's a tough one when we then extrapolate, and wonder what is best for the world. No, I wouldn't want to forcefully eradicate religion, not at all. But sometimes, you can talk to people, or read posts, and you tend to lose confidence that things will eventually be OK. Could be, this is just a temporary fluke, a small ripple in a long history of ignorance, and servitude. The curtain will fall again. Hard to know exactly what to do. Which isn't so good, considering the billion fanatics out there, who know exactly what to do.

JR

reply to post by JR MacBeth


your canned copy and paste response is bleak. your making this way too hard on yourself. too much booksmarts makes one all theory and no field experience. my irritations are not with catholics. it is with intelect. some of the smartest people out there , are the most clueless. good luck in your search for arguement.

reply to post by TylerDurden2U


I wish you, and others who are seeking, all the luck in the world on your search.

Of course, if you discount reason, or intellect too much, you may need a lot of that luck.

Just imagine if a Muslim had the attitude to "just believe", and to not over-think it. Heck, that's probably a pretty good recipe for remaining Muslim!

Not that I want to pick on any particular group, but I suspect that if "you" were born a Muslim, you might like to entertain the "reasonable" notion that you have at least a fair chance of getting out of it. If you, or the Muslim, or other religionists won't even make an honest attempt to think about any other things, things that you have not been told, or raised with, what chance do you have of ever escaping something that might be untrue? Sure, you "know" you believe truth, but so does Abdullah, on the other side of the world.

I know, I'm beating a dead horse, but I'm not going to bug you anymore after this one Tyler. Again, I do wish you, and all the various religionists of the world a lot of luck. After all, our future collective fate may depend far more on the multiplying majority, than it ever will on a few pompous pain-in-the-ars "thinkers".

Such has it always been. Such (apparently) will it always be.

JR

Originally posted by TylerDurden2U
reply to post by JR MacBeth

 

your canned copy and paste response is bleak. your making this way too hard on yourself. too much booksmarts makes one all theory and no field experience. my irritations are not with catholics. it is with intelect. some of the smartest people out there , are the most clueless. good luck in your search for arguement.

Wow that is your way of carrying out an argument? By challenging someones intellect? Do you have "field experience"? Have you met God? Or Jesus? Or is field experience going to church? I don't understand that statement at all. Are you one of those people that still think that the earth is flat and everything revolves around the earth? Your irritations are with intellect? You have never heard the phrase knowledge is power? Do you even believe in science or is that too blasphemous for your "faith"?

Originally posted by olliemc84

Originally posted by TylerDurden2U
reply to post by JR MacBeth

 

your canned copy and paste response is bleak. your making this way too hard on yourself. too much booksmarts makes one all theory and no field experience. my irritations are not with catholics. it is with intelect. some of the smartest people out there , are the most clueless. good luck in your search for arguement.

Wow that is your way of carrying out an argument? By challenging someones intellect? Do you have "field experience"? Have you met God? Or Jesus? Or is field experience going to church? I don't understand that statement at all. Are you one of those people that still think that the earth is flat and everything revolves around the earth? Your irritations are with intellect? You have never heard the phrase knowledge is power? Do you even believe in science or is that too blasphemous for your "faith"?

edit on 3-7-2011 by olliemc84 because: Removed a word.

reply to post by JR MacBeth


my faith is not like a chevrolet. i do not need to change it in for a better model next year. i understand a little more about agnostic athiestic condition. to understand more of the "following jesus condition" you may want to consider God in heaven as your father. a dad may punish for breaking rules or let you figure it out on your own that dad was right, or not bail you out in a hurry when you screw up.(tough love) but assuming your family unit was not disfunction, your dad still loves you. take into consideration the parable of the pridical son. why be so hard on a guy that believes in thou shalt not kill, or the golden rule? if you found what i said to be offensive by "considering god as your father" , then i would insist that you are the one that doesnt have the open mind. consider not having someone tell you what the bible means, and read mathew, mark, luke and john. is there anything written that is unfair to any of mankind? does it suggest that you do anything morally wrong? does it lead you to do anything that goes against your moral foundation?

reply to post by olliemc84


you like that, huh? why, are you really smart? then you'll know that I did not make up the phrase, "too smart for your own good"!

reply to post by TylerDurden2U


You are impossible. Don't judge people who don't believe in what you believe and your life will be much better in the long run.

reply to post by olliemc84


Well said.

Star.

reply to post by olliemc84


who are you? are you a scientist?

No you dont know it

I have read the bible...was a fantastic story, a fairytale made for children obviously though, considering your attitude towards us atheists in your opening post.

Get over yourself, believe what you want, and I'll believe in what I want

Originally posted by TylerDurden2U
reply to post by olliemc84

 

who are you? are you a scientist?

No and I never claimed to be. Whats your point? O thats right, you don't have one. Asking me if I am a scientist is completely irrelevant. What does it matter? I'm done with this thread because you are once again impossible. Peace