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Should Flogging Be an Alternative to Prison?

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posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 04:55 AM
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Flogging someone with a cane causes intense pain and permanent bodily damage. An Australian who was flogged for drug trafficking in Malaysia in the 1970s recalled that the cane "chewed hungrily through layers of" his "skin and soft tissue" and "left furrows" on him that were "bloody pulp."

It's tough stuff and generally considered a barbaric punishment that the 21st century Western world would and should never consider. That makes it a bit startling that there is a new book out by a serious U.S. academic arguing that the U.S. should start flogging criminals. Peter Moskos' In Defense of Flogging might seem like a satire — akin to Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal," an essay advocating the eating of children — but it is as serious as a wooden stick lashing into a blood-splattered back.
(See pictures of the world's most humane prison.)

Despite what you may think, Moskos is not pushing flogging as part of a "get tougher on criminals" campaign. In fact Moskos, who teaches at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, begins not by arguing that the justice system is too soft on criminals, but the opposite. So before you accuse him of advocating a cruel and unusual form of punishment, he offers this reminder; in the U.S., there are 2.3 million inmates incarcerated in barbaric conditions. American prisons are bleak and violent, and sexual assault is rampant.

And, Moskos points out, imprisonment is not just cruel — it is ineffective. The original idea for the penitentiary was that criminals would become penitent and turn away from their lives of crime. Today, prisons are criminogenic — they help train inmates on how to commit crime on release.

Flogging, Moskos argues, is an appealing alternative. Why not give convicts a choice, he says: let them substitute flogging for imprisonment under a formula of two lashes for every year of their sentence.


This definitely makes on think, if it is a choice and thus completely voluntary, then flogging as an alternative to imprisonment could be a viable alternative. Many non-violent criminals enter prison and leave violent criminals only to return again for a more heinous crime. We see that happening all across America every year.

Not only would it potentially reduce the number of criminals who go from non-violent to violent but it also saves them years of their life which would otherwise be spent behind soul-crushing bars… and it would save the taxpayer too. Perhaps it is a rather drastic measure, beating someone with an object like a cane or whip would be excruciatingly painful, but is it any more painful than years locked in prison being beaten, raped, and having to live in such a harmful environment?

What is your opinion?




posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 04:56 AM
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So instead of being locked up give them a spanking?



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:02 AM
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reply to post by Lysergic
 


Heh. Spanking.

I'd rather have been put in prison as a child than to have undergone those beatings my mom gave me with a shoe, stick, paddle, belt, whatever she got her hands on.

I would wonder about the mental state of a person who would want to flog somebody. My opinion, NO.



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:08 AM
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I wonder how long it would take cane scars to become a status symbol between gang members...

The problem is that while criminals could have the choice, the general public would have to face said criminal back on the streets within a week after he was all healed again.

My solution is find an island in the middle of nowhere give them weekly food drops and let 'em fend for themselves.



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:15 AM
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Originally posted by kyred
reply to post by Lysergic
 




I would wonder about the mental state of a person who would want to flog somebody. My opinion, NO.



Feel free to let your mind wonder. A person who maliciously beats a child is in no way the same as someone who feels no objection to the flogging of an adult. Can't say I get any complaints at home anyway.
A cane breaking the skin though? Speaking from experience I've broken many a cane - but never the skin when using one.
The only way I can think is either the cane is doctored in some way or splintered to cause such damage. An undamaged cane even full pelt WILL leave temporary raised welts and cause some mighty bruises, but permanent damage? Not likely.
edit on 27-6-2011 by Suspiria because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:16 AM
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Originally posted by Lysergic
So instead of being locked up give them a spanking?


kinda like the naughty corner or a smack.

hmmmm

need to think about this one.



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:17 AM
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reply to post by Suspiria
 



but your not flogging criminals for punishment.

well, not for real , outside of role playing... right?



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:20 AM
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reply to post by Misoir
 


Does flogging "help" any more than prison would? It may cause less harm to the convict and less expense to the taxpayer than a lengthy prison term, but the problem is still unaddressed; neither provides a positive reparation for criminal acts. Both are simply methods of revenge. Both are violent and potentially crippling. Both degrade society at large.

You want to address the problem, have the convict make restitution in some way to the victims of his crimes. Decriminalize victimless "crimes."



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:22 AM
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Originally posted by guessing
reply to post by Suspiria
 



but your not flogging criminals for punishment.

well, not for real , outside of role playing... right?


The only Role Playing I've ever done was a bit of D&D waaaaaay back.



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:24 AM
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Great post. In all honesty, what happens in prison? You go to prison for stealing cars, and you learn how to steal cars better. It's pointless



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:24 AM
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reply to post by Suspiria
 


Now, I'm not sure exactly what kind of canings you have endured. But the sort of canes that are made for, er, entertainment purposes? They're actually made limber enough to not cause lasting damage. Same with the riding crop you use on a horse (though those are more stiff, since the horse has hair and thick skin)

Someone beats you with a bamboo or rattan switch or cane, you're going to bleed. They don't need to alter the stick at all; human skin is pretty darned delicate.



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:30 AM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Suspiria
 


Now, I'm not sure exactly what kind of canings you have endured. But the sort of canes that are made for, er, entertainment purposes? They're actually made limber enough to not cause lasting damage. Same with the riding crop you use on a horse (though those are more stiff, since the horse has hair and thick skin)

Someone beats you with a bamboo or rattan switch or cane, you're going to bleed. They don't need to alter the stick at all; human skin is pretty darned delicate.


Actually I don't use useless fantasy items. My canes are bamboo - The best BDSM implements you can find are generally from hardware stores & fit / made for heavy purpose, NOT some ridiculous titillation item generally bought by people desperate to spice up their failed sex lives who like the idea of pain but don't want it.



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:34 AM
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reply to post by Suspiria
 


Please just stop already.

You are arguing against that which history has provided us ample evidence for; that caning and flogging can cause severe and crippling injury.



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:40 AM
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Originally posted by Exuberant1
reply to post by Suspiria
 


Please just stop already.

You are arguing against that which history has provided us ample evidence for; that caning and flogging can cause severe and crippling injury.





The birch, used for a good while was doctored with brine and used on prisoners. The severity depended on length and the number of twigs used. THAT caused blood loss - Historical fact. I'm not arguing the cane can cause injury, I'm well aware it does. I'm just arguing what a bog standard length of bamboo can do.



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by Suspiria
I'm just arguing...


Those three words are quite accurate.

You are just arguing.



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:44 AM
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reply to post by Exuberant1
 


There ya go. I can't imagine anyone wanting to be flogged with a cane for punishment. But that's just me. I'll let my mind wander, though, as Suspiria suggested.



And, sorry, forgot the name of a previous poster, yes, caning just seems like a revenge punishment. Like the kid in Malaysia, I think it was, who was flogged for doing some sort of damage on a street. I remember at least, though, he was an American and there was an outrage about the punishment. I'm sure he learned a lesson, what with being strapped naked to a punishment rack and then flogged with a cane. Left him bloody and bruised. Perhaps this criime of his would also have taught him a lesson if he had to clean up his mess and also pay for everything he damaged.



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:52 AM
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Originally posted by Exuberant1

Originally posted by Suspiria
I'm just arguing...


Those three words are quite accurate.

You are just arguing.


How erudite and observant you are.



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 05:53 AM
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reply to post by Suspiria
 


See the redness caused when you whack someone's ass with your stick? That's damage. Broken blood vessels. Keep whacking, and you cause blistering. Keep whacking, and the blister peels away, exposing the flesh underneath. Most of the blood vessels have been crushed, so not an awful lot of bleeding (as opposed to whipping, which simply rips skin away) but still, raw and bloody enough. A slender enough rod can simply cause the skin to split from the force of the blow - it effectively acts like a knife

if you've never seen these results, then I assure you, it's because you're just not putting the effort into it. Hell, one good hit with a bamboo pole (or any stick, really) is usually pretty able to tear skin.

Michael Fay - remember him, got arrested in Singapore for car vandalism back in the 90's? he was sentenced to six lashes of a rattan cane. These are 1.2 meters long and 13mm thick. Not too different from a hardwood dowel, except rattan is a lot less brittle.

His sentence was reduced to four lashes.
This is what his ass looked like afterwards

So... yeah. Criminal flogging can mess your day up.
edit on 27/6/2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 06:06 AM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Suspiria
 


See the redness caused when you whack someone's ass with your stick? That's damage. Broken blood vessels. Keep whacking, and you cause blistering. Keep whacking, and the blister peels away, exposing the flesh underneath. Most of the blood vessels have been crushed, so not an awful lot of bleeding (as opposed to whipping, which simply rips skin away) but still, raw and bloody enough. A slender enough rod can simply cause the skin to split from the force of the blow - it effectively acts like a knife

if you've never seen these results, then I assure you, it's because you're just not putting the effort into it. Hell, one good hit with a bamboo pole (or any stick, really) is usually pretty able to tear skin.

Michael Fay - remember him, got arrested in Singapore for car vandalism back in the 90's? he was sentenced to six lashes of a rattan cane. These are 1.2 meters long and 13mm thick. Not too different from a hardwood dowel, except rattan is a lot less brittle.

His sentence was reduced to four lashes.
This is what his ass looked like afterwards

So... yeah. Criminal flogging can mess your day up.
edit on 27/6/2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)


6 lashes? 4 lashes? I see at least 20 in that pic, but never the less I see the point you make. Purely by stature alone I could probably never wield enough force to do that, nor would I want to.
But does it work though? Are people deterred from committing further crime when the punishment is doled out? If it does then there's worthy argument for using it, if it doesn't then there's no point. As has already been said, criminals would likely use scars as a badge of honour eventually.



posted on Jun, 27 2011 @ 06:08 AM
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While a good idea in theory the ACLU would just wee themselves over the "cruel and inhumane" aspect of such punishment.

I'm all for the poster that said deserted island. Made a great movie also!




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