Freedom aint what it used to be

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke (1729�1797), Irish philosopher, statesman.

Philosophy is what got us in this mess in the first place. If folk stop quoting dead men and lived their life then maybe they would find a lil peace and happiness regardless of what the evil do.

You are just as capable thinking up something catchy to say. What does that cure? Homelessness? Joblessness? Misery? Nauhn, it cures nothing. One must work for self-betterment and self improvemment that way no matter what the "aristicrats" do you are well...your family is well. Doing for self is more important than saving the world because you save your lil world. If everyone saved themselves there would be no need to save the world. So you see, it's not doing nothing talking about doing something about the world while your personal life is a mess is doing nothing.

Leveler, we are less free now than we have ever been.

The old days were based on moral codes, not govornment ones, people simply didnt do things.

When my granny was young, there were no cameras watching you everywhere. They were free to walk the street at night without fear of evil befalling them. They were free to move and start wherever they liked without banks controlling damn near everything. Hardly anyone had debt. They were poorer, but finacially, freer.

They did not have security checkpoints wherever they traveled. They did not have the FBI holding thousands of records on private citizens.

No, we are not freer, we are slaves.

Originally posted by saturninesweet I'm tired of just hearing talk.

You and me both.

Does anyone want to actually do something about it?

HELL YES! I am one of those people who has been trying, and through so I learn every day about those I have decided need to leave. Also every day I gather new and usefull evidence that will expose and cripple the shadowy thieves. Thus far ignorence is thier best weapon, but everyday people are wakeing up, and seeing action must be taken.

You're right. The government is supposed to be run by the people, yet it tells them they can't go on certain gov. property (military bases), and it has more power than them since it has fighters, bombers, well-armed troops, etc. The government lies to its citizens all the time now, i.e. 9/11/2001; war with Iraq. There should be reform. We all know diplomacy won't work so American militias and the rest of the citizens should uprise already before the government has too much power for them to fight. The USA will probably go fascist like Nazi Germany, the other nations of the world will have to step in, making a World War III, and afterware there will be a One World Order because countries will convince their citizens that if there's an NWO, there will be no war. I encourage everyone who reads this post to make explosive devices, shelters, and firearms (or buy unregistered firearms) and store them in case of emergency, or at least store the equipment to make these if you're afraid of breaking the "law." If the government turns tyrannical it's your constitutional duty to uprise anyway, and the current government is pretty tyrannical already. The founding fathers said that federalism leads to a tyrannical government, but that was so long ago that we don't seem to care. Now we have huge federal programs such as the Homeland Security Act, or the FBI, NSA, BATF, CIA, and other oppressive programs, and don't seem to care. Maybe your neighbourhood will be the site of another Waco or Ruby Ridge. Do you want to be shot dead or burnt to death? Think about it.

Any uprising will only lead to shut down...the system is designed so that if the masses uprise martial law is declared which brings in FEMA. Under FEMA all aspects of life are controlled down to how much food your family is allowed and where you are allowed to work. In the first few weeks you prolly won't even be allowed to leave your home without fear of incarceration or detainment. The thing has just gone too far and there's no way to turn it back with violence in the streets.

Let's say you are able to organize a mass uprising. How will that make you any free'er than you are today? It won't. The government will clamp down even harder trying to preserve its systems. You will be forced to work. In essense, forced to participate in the keeping the very systems alive that you were trying to destroy or reorganize.

How will you even get the masses to go along with your lil scheme to overtake a government which has looked at history and built so many fail safe systems on top of systems on top of systems to keep folk in line. Uprising is not even worth the price that will have to be paid.



[Edited on 1-6-2003 by Saphronia]

Romanias dictator fell within a couple of days. It can happen. You simply need the right catylists, like poverty, govornment massive corruption, ect.

The best thing that can happen to America is total economic collapse, widespread hunger and poverty, and the like. Only then when people have nothing left to lose, will they gain everything.

I really enjoy the discussion here in the past few days!
In reply to this, firstly, I never said a word about armed revolt....might it need to come to that, sure....but saphronia (think thats right) I also agree with one tiny bit of your comments. Personal change is a PART of it. I wouldnt say everyone needs to build a huge militia, yet. But I think those interested in change should see to arming themselves, for their own protection and the protection of their constitutional rights, while creating a network between like minds to give cohesiveness and a firm goal and direction to a resolution for change. In some of my previous posts, I have made some broad suggestions on how this could be done through non-violent reform, but that does mean that will be possible. I just think it's the first step. If you don't first attempt non-violent reform, there will be hordes of the mindless sheople clamoring that the reform is unjust.
Also, very glad someone here agrees with me about the less talk more action! For a beginning of action, I was thinking of a couple of options. First, if there is someone interested in taking action who owns a private server, it could be used as a mostly secure hub for the sharing of various communications. That not being possible, or, perhaps, even if it is, I think it would be a good idea to generate a email mailing list or something of the like, to form a more cohesive group for the sharing of thoughts, ideal, goals and means for realizing them. Those who are worried about your privacy, get an anonymous web email, and if youre worried about your IP being traced, I'm pretty sure you can mask that, as well. The first step in any endeavor is the formulation of a plan of action. Would any of this strike anyone's interest?

Indeed it does strike my interest, but if you have seen how our government deals with others, the like is required in return. And don't forget, the Founding Fathers new times like these would happen, not could but would. And so they set up within our rights, the way to regain our country. I am all for a peaceful re-takeover of our government...unfortunetly I don't see that happening, and neither did the Founding Fathers.

Originally posted by Saphronia
Uprising is not even worth the price that will have to be paid.

You say that now, without a fight. Wait until you have nothing, and you'll wish you did...I refuse to lose.

Benjamin Franklin:
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security

Advisor: i believe it's flawed thinking to assume it has to get worse to get better. it doesn't in my opinion. if folk want change then they change. but, to believe we all have to be starving and beggin the government for bread before change can happen is idiotic to me. change is a personal thing in our society. our government will have its way. its too big and too powerful...more powerful than the people because the people aren't aware of their power. it's a waste to think you can save the world most folk don't even think they need saving...so save yourself.

it's not easy to revolt and here it would be damn near impossible. look around you. are the folk you see daily capable of revolting in a manner that could change anything? Are they even capable of rallying around change in a non-violent protest way? Most are not and you would need most and crazy organization to overthrow the beast we call the USG.

Before there will be any major change in the current system, there must be a drastic and rapid reduction in materialistic life style. Today Americans are more interested in maintaining a certain materialistic life style than in civil liberties. The vast majority of Americans will give up every civil liberty they have in order to maintain their life style. I doubt that many people on this board realize the threat that Electronic Commerce and Electronic Banking is to freedom. When almost all financial resources become electronic accounts, the government can easily seize anyones assets (Hell they don't even have to leave their office.) Damn few A
Aamericans will attempt to buck the government at that time because they will be afraid that they might lose their 401k, or their car, or whatever. The new US Patriot Act will be implemented throughout the entire USA regardless of what the states or local governments think. (If the states don't go along, the feds will just withhold various federal fundings given to the states.) Eventually this will be used to shut down any organization which advocates real political change. You expect a population who won't even attend a seminar to get involved with any form of resistance to the federal government???? In other postings in threads dealing with this same subject, I have posted links to web sites doing a lot of what saturnine_sweet
said should be done. Yet I doubt if any member of this forum (except for one) has ever accessed these sites. You see I base my observations on experience (been there and done that) and my experiences with the people in this country do not give me a very good feeling for the future of civil liberities. When you tell them the first thing they should do is get rid of their credit cards, 99 per cent just go home. I have come to the conclusion the most people would be happy with a government that 1) tells them where to work (ensures them a job), 2) tells them where to live (government housing), 3) takes care of their children and educate them in all matters (including religious and moral), 4) who to marry, 5) what to believe (what church to go to). In short they would be happy if the government controlled every aspect of thier life relieving them of responsibilty for their own lives and having to think for themselves. I wish it were different but that is the current trend. Today you are seeing a new form of Fascism on the rise in the USA.

the only reason things get better is do to the fact they ARE worse. People may have become content with being told how and when to live their lives, but that is assinine. This country was not created for that purpose, as a matter of fact it was created do to the exact opposite! I know most people don't give a rats arse about diddly these days, but I can feel many do. And as for me saveing myself, I'm not nor will be so selfish. I was raised better than that, and know others were also.
Morals, values, integrity and even honesty have become defaced in this country as well as others. People today have forgotten the lessons our parents and grandparents tried to teach us...to much is taken for granted. Which leads into my next post, I have something to say about that too. Its, going to be called "In my opinion" look for it in the Website-Related Discussions. Back to our current conversation though, Martial Law, I saw that mentioned. If in fact this country the USA ever enters a state of martial law, take cover. Because militias and many soldiers WILL revolt and march against the politicians that invoked such a state. I know, I am one of those who will...and Honor(something people these days have no understanding of) will be restored. I think my quotes say the rest.

[Edited on 3-6-2003 by ADVISOR]

Well Advisor, you are one out of a thousand, a very rare individual who would actually stand up against the system. Most people wet their pants when they find out they might go to prison if they stand up to the system (many of my friends have been sent to prison or have had their assets seized). As I stated before, when you start telling people who are dissatisfied with the system what they must do, most give up and go home when you tell them what Step 1 is. They never get to Step 2.

Thank you

I'm proud to be among the few...and the rare. I just hope things work out so it never comes to that point.
Although I'm afraid it will...

Jag -
Firstly, if you could share those sites you mentioned, that would be great. I totally agree with your take on it....however, I am like advisor, I can't just stand by and do nothing. This isnt just our own lives, it everyone's, and our children, and their children. As Advisor says, a lot of it is about honor, about being able to be proud of the life we stand for.
As for the resistence of most, I agree that they won't, that they dont want to think for themselves. And that is why I see the best route for change is to have a multi-level structure. At one extreme, you have your militia members, those who are willing to risk their lives for the cause, just as every country has its military. But that doesnt mean that everyone else has to be totally out of it because they wont risk that much. In truth, not everyone who stands for change will be suited to militia action. At the other extreme, you could have those who support and attempt to enact a gradual reform of government. Something that would put them at zero risk. There are myriad solutions to the problem. Why not persue them all at once? You might say that this would fragmentize the oganization's ability to act, but that would not necessarily be the case, because by having such a multi-faceted approach, the number of recruits would be signifigantly higher. And something of this sort could easily stay within the bounds of current laws while persuing change, but also be capable of taking other action if put in a situation where such action would be necessary. You see, its not just the problem of people not caring....those who don't care will pay the price in the end, one way or another. It's a matter of not getting those who care structured into something cohesive and capable of action on a multitude of fronts. At the very least, something of this sort might build the power to hold conditions as they are. Nothing is impossible. Nothing.
Also, while many people are slaves to the materialistic lifestyle, history will show you that if a charismatic leader arises in a faction, the mindless masses can often be brought into the fold. In a world of mass media, this should be even more possible. Easy, simple, or quick? No. Possible? Yes. You seem resigned to life as it is. But I don't believe in giving up, or giving in. I am a free man, a good man, an honorable man, and I will not let anyone make me less than I am, be it a friend, a lover, or a government. No one holds the right to make me less. Maybe I will never be able to do anything to change the things that try to lessen me. But I will do what I can, and never let myself become the lesser for it. If I don't, then how can I call myself a free man?

Here are the web sites:www.familyguardian.tzo.com...
This site is ran by Chris Hansen. One of the best sites I have seen and has links into other web sites of interest. (He even has links into offical government sites.) A lot of people dislike his site because Chris Hansen is a Covenantionalist Christian (a'int too many Christians to the right of Chris Hansen) and he does not hide the fact. However, the research and information here is top rate and well worth the effort. His "The Great IRS Tax Hoax" is a must read for any person interested in how the government has lied to us. Chris also runs three mirror sites which you can get from accessing the link above.

www.givemeliberty.org...
This is the web site of the We The People organization (Bob Schulz). It is a pretty good site, but Chris Hansen's site has a lot more content.

www.taxableincome.net...
The web site of Larken Rose (developed the 861/862 contention).

www.freedomabovefortune.com...
This web site is ran by Joe Bannister - ex IRS CID agent.

If you guess that most of these sites are anti-IRS, you are right. The IRS is the "point man" for federal destruction of our civil liberties (the IRS is in the pocket book of almost every American.) If you want to restore civil liberties in the USA, you must first take down the IRS. (Abolishing the Federal Reserve would be next).

www.abovetopsecret.com...
A web site where a bunch of paranoid government conspiracy theorists "hang out". Most likely anyoune who has accessed this site more than once is a certified lunatic.

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out...sound good