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I don't believe in "God" so why shouldn't God be taken out of the pledge?

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posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 08:52 PM
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reply to post by ArMaP
 


The problem is the true history of the Pledge. And that Under God was added as political propaganda.

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in August 1892 by the socialist minister Francis Bellamy (1855-1931). It was originally published in The Youth's Companion on September 8, 1892. Bellamy had hoped that the pledge would be used by citizens in any country.

In its original form it read:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

In 1923, the words, "the Flag of the United States of America" were added. At this time it read:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge we say today. Bellamy's daughter objected to this alteration. Today it reads:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

www.ushistory.org...




posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by ArMaP
I'm an atheist, but in my country we don't have such a thing as the "pledge of allegiance".

How I see it, if the expression "under God" is there to represent that the person making the pledge agrees with the idea that the United States are "a nation under God" and that expression is meaningless to an atheist, then it means that the person was not sincere when they made the pledge.

If I was in that situation, I would remove the "under God" myself and would say the rest of the pledge. After all, what's the meaning of a false pledge?


You are exactly right, but I think the problem is not easily resolved. Here's the difficulty; Since I do believe in God, the *ONLY* way I would pledge allegiance to any nation if it was recognized that it's governing authority was "under God." As grating as it is to every government and leader, a believers fundamental allegiance is God's kingdom first. I would never pledge allegiance to any human authority unless it was with the understanding that my primary allegiance was to God, i.e. "under God."

"Then they sent to Him some of the Pharisees and the Herodians, to catch Him in His words.
When they had come, they said to Him, "Teacher, we know that You are true, and care about no one; for You do not regard the person of men, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?"

"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." Christ said this to the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders when they epically failed in attempting to trick Him. They had already submitted to the Roman rule and law as a nation, so what was there to dispute about? But even above their submission to king or nation was His declaration of a submission of greater degree to a greater authority.

No easy solution. But I guess it's like Bob Dylan said, "You’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord But you’re gonna have to serve somebody"

I guess it comes down to who/what your god is, because in the end, by our very nature we are going to pledge allegiance to that.
edit on 26-6-2011 by quadagent because: clarify context of Mark 12 quote



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 09:05 PM
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For my entire life I have wondered why people are so offended by what other people are doing with their lives. Someone is gay, religious, short, etc... you will find someone out there that is offended by it. I wonder if these same people turn on their TVs and refuse to change the channel because they want to complain about how they hate the current program.
Or perhaps they get into their car and someone has tuned it to classical music (which they hate) and instead of changing it they complain and write letters to the radio stations in protest.
Everyone is offended by something. Me, I hate seeing small dogs in fancy clothing but, instead of bitching about it I simply chuckle, shake my head and move on.
Same situation with "Under God" you don't like it then don't say it. Skip that part. It is real easy to do. Let those that do believe in God to say it without you mucking it up for them.
It has only been in there around 60 years. (maybe a little less).

IMHO it equates to this... People that find offense in things that they could simply ignore, if they chose, have a problem with self esteem. Especially, if said things would not even indirectly affect them. A confident individual will not worry about hearing you say "Under God" they will respectfully keep their mouths shut and expect you to do the same when you don't hear them say it.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 09:15 PM
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America was founded on religious beliefs. Many ideas come from religious beliefs or masonry practices.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by Warpthal
America was founded on religious beliefs. Many ideas come from religious beliefs or masonry practices.


It was founded on FREEDOM of belief and the philosophies of Deism. The Deist creator is an architect of the universe - and that is all. Man is responsible for himself.

If ALL citizens are not god believers - - then a pledge can not include god.

Plus the writer of the pledge wrote it to be a universal pledge that all nations could use. Whether they be secular - atheist or anything else.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by newcovenant
Peoples identities are wrapped up in them and like sports teams our allegiance comes with colors and customs. I think it is part of a method of controlling the masses and manipulating their actions at any given time.


I think that statement hits the proverbial nail right smack dab on the head. It's the real true motivator for resisting changes in things as simple fandom to loyalty and patriotism to your nation right down the very fear of globalism and a one world government. I would say the controlling of masses has been quite successful.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 09:46 PM
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It was originally added as just one more way that the U.S. could be the opposite of the Soviets. It was nothing but one more Cold War political ploy. It's not really a religious thing and never really was, and people feeling offended by it on those grounds is ridiculous.

It's like being offended by the South Park movie just because it has Jesus, the Devil, and the End of Time as plot devices.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 10:04 PM
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Originally posted by Sagittarian69
Same situation with "Under God" you don't like it then don't say it. Skip that part. It is real easy to do. Let those that do believe in God to say it without you mucking it up for them.
It has only been in there around 60 years. (maybe a little less).

IMHO it equates to this... People that find offense in things that they could simply ignore, if they chose, have a problem with self esteem. Especially, if said things would not even indirectly affect them. A confident individual will not worry about hearing you say "Under God" they will respectfully keep their mouths shut and expect you to do the same when you don't hear them say it.


Well good. When it is finally removed as it should be.

I expect all the God believers to keep their mouths shut.

But - - you know they won't.

All you have to do is put stuff like this in the opposite "frame" - - - to see it correctly.
edit on 26-6-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 10:13 PM
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Originally posted by DeepThoughtCriminal
Why should it not be removed? Because for Christ´s sake U.S., there are more important things to worry about that upsetting a few rabid atheists.

Removing it would have very similar logic to burning down churches in places where many atheists live. Part of your history, part of how your country was formed. So keep it, and worry about the more pressing issues.


Party Girl mentions this and yes, I think in a way it is like tearing down churches or mosques but also a little different because one is sort of a verbal incantation or indoctrination that requires participation and the other is simple visual and religious art-history. Thanks for the reply.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 10:16 PM
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Unless you mean the words you say, a pledge of allegiance is stupid.

So officially changing it may end up removing meaning for me...i don't know. I am a deist, and believe in a Creator. And believe He wants us to live under natural law...so this is what i am pledging as a "good American".

If you are atheist, then make your own revision and go on about your business. Why do people have to raise such a ruckus just to show that they are different? Do what you want to do...no need to be a squeaky wheel when it comes to personal matters.

It is like LBGT parades. What is the point? To raise awareness? I guarantee I am aware of them, and the kind of awareness I have after their annual excuse to be lewd in public (not all...but many), my awareness is usually less than favorable. What i do in my crotch isn't something I feel the need to discuss in public, much less have a parade about.

It just seems like people want to be seen as individual so much that they take it to an obnoxious level just to feel validated.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 10:18 PM
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What some people dont realize, you HAVE to say it to not get in trouble in some schools.

Also, its a national anthem. Therefore, it should encompass the entire nation, not some of it



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 10:33 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 



I don't know why you say that atheists can't stomach this argument. I've seen no indication of that at all. I'm not afraid of it.



I don't find anyone supporting and backing it's removal except a few isolated atheists who are brave enough to fight it but most seem to be standing quietly behind the sidelines waiting to see how it all turns out.
For example where are the threads to decry the Supreme Courts ruling?

Pepsi Omits 'Under God' in Patriotic Can Promotion
www.abovetopsecret.com...

This thread has 70-100 people who think its shameful that NBC cut under God from the pledge
NBC apologizes for cutting "under God" from Pledge of Allegiance before U.S. Open
www.abovetopsecret.com...

On the other hand no one seems to care here when elevatedone gives us the news the Supreme Court voted to keep it but not for the reasons you might think. Visit the thread there to find out why and it had nothing to do with the division of Church and State as you would suspect.
NEWS: 'One Nation Under God' to stay in Pledge,
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here is one of my favorites, I respect his reasoning but wisefoolishness did not get the response I think he deserved (only two replies) bringing this up. Take "Under God" out of the pledge- a Christian perspective www.abovetopsecret.com...&addstar=1&on=4390673#pid4390673

I wonder if our responses to this issue are largely emotional and not all that rational?



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 10:35 PM
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reply to post by newcovenant
 


if somebody has a problem with God being in the pledge then give me your money cause it's got God on it too.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by lbndhr
Why change something that has worked for how many decades?
Why do so select few think their likes and sis-likes take precedence over reality? Why don't you go ask Mexico, or Egypt to change something in their national pledge? Of you don't like it go back to where you came from.
You dis prove God and well maybe just maybe you would have a starting argument.



Thanks for the reply because you push the responses further ahead and this is the only thread I ever started to make it to the big time! So even though it is negative your response is appreciated.
Even though you did not read the original post to the end and have my opinions completely wrong, I appreciate your response.
And even though you ask me to leave my country if I don't like it I appreciate your taking the time to reply.
You may even come back and misread some of the other comments and remark on them.
It's a wild pagan party! Everyone invited.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 10:47 PM
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Originally posted by infojunkie2
reply to post by newcovenant
 


if somebody has a problem with God being in the pledge then give me your money cause it's got God on it too.


I believe there are steps in place to take that off the money too.
It should go. It is a lie. It is the money that gives us a safe comfortable feeling. We don't know God or at least we don't act like it (IMO) It is the money we trust.

We have State Lotteries, gambling, strip joints, booze and cigarettes on every corner.
How religious can we be?
If we put God on the money does this suddenly make us a god fearing nation?
I don't know about that.

Trust God? Most "believers" would deny God exists if enough money were involved.
It is sheer hypocrisy and as other posters have noted, there are more than only Christians in this country and they should be represented or none of them should be represented...I mean if you want to be fair about it.

edit on 26-6-2011 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 11:01 PM
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Originally posted by aorAki
Get rid of the whole pledge, in my opinion. As an 'outsider' it is patently obvious that people are saying it without meaning it, just paying lip service to it, as where is the liberty and justice for all?



You are not the first person to suggest this and it makes me re-think the value of the Pledge to begin with.
Maybe this is part of the "brain washing mind control" making us THINK AND BELIEVE there is liberty and justice for all. If we say it enough times maybe we will believe it is true. After enough repetitions I think you WILL start to believe it and it will take on the mind altering POWER of a prayer. Interesting. Thanks for responding.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by Laokin

Originally posted by newcovenant
*snip*


I'm agnostic/atheist depending on the day really.... I don't mind under god being in the pledge... however...

It's not hitler esque at all to remove it from the national pledge. This isn't limiting anyones free speech in any way, shape, form, or fashion. The pledge is not an individualist idea... It is the product of cult mentality. Like you said, God is a topic open for debate, so to claim that we all in this nation believe in God is just wrong and cultish. We don't all believe in god, so to say "One nation under god" is a falsity. On the flipside, I do believe in freespeech... so I believe it has the right to be there if who ever has the authority to edit the pledge wishes it to remain....

I only propose that removing it does not infact harm free speech. It's only makes the pledge more factual, since we aren't all united in the belief of God.

This is a deeply philosophical question... Thanks for the topic :-D. Star and flagged.
edit on 26-6-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)



Thanks for your reply and most appreciated star and flag though I am not really after them. They are a nice touch. True on two points here definitely, we are NOT all united in this belief of God and we should respect everyone's right to free speech. I think that makes this a particularly tricky conundrum.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
I was in public school when the pledge was changed and we had to learn the new version.

Let me tell you - - a lot of people were not happy then either. It was not something that was fully embraced by all citizens.

It was just as controversial then - when our government over-stepped its bounds - - - as it still is today.



That must have been quite an unpleasant experience. You felt then the way so many are feeling today with this, as if it is an over stepping of the governments role. It is a change many are reluctant to accept and even the Supreme Court didn't make the change back to the original version, but this will come up again. I think in the best interests of us all perhaps we should return to the original version as you say. It does not sound unusual to me but it has been quite some time since I have HAD to say the pledge and I know there will be many who simply don't accept it. I also don't think they should be forced take the God part out and if they want to keep under God in the pledge they should be allowed to say it their way as well. Thanks very much for your insightful and very interesting comments in this thread.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 11:16 PM
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reply to post by Rockdisjoint
 


I don't believe that the pledge should be thrown out, I believe it is part of our history as a country. I don't believe that just removing the word god will solve any problems. But, if one wishes to pledge their allegiance to our country or the meaning of the symbolism of the flag (freedom) then try writing a pledge more viable in todays socio political, non secular, warmongering and greedy government agenda.

Personally I would not pledge allegiance or as it should be called, pledging to conformity under the guise of "freedom".



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 11:25 PM
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Easy solution, nobody has to say anything they dont believe in. If you don't believe in God then just don't say that part you could say "One nation under the sun, corporate logo or anything else your heart desires". There is no need to impose your beliefs on anyone else wheather you believe in God or not. If people would just shut up all their complaining about it and learn to live with and get along with others who may not believe all the same stuff we could end all this crap arguing.
Or you could just not say the pledge, if you don't agree with the words.






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