I don't believe in "God" so why shouldn't God be taken out of the pledge?

Originally posted by newcovenant

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by newcovenant

 

Since God is intrinsic to all life everywhere already always, now and forever, he would be hard to remove, from anything, so why waste your time..?

God is our very condition, but the atheist asks for "proof"!

There is no proof there is no God.
Science does not even claim evolution as a fact but a working theory with many holes in it.
But there is no proof of God either.
We are left with fragmented written evidence offering clues to the possibility of "God" and a stirring in our heart that cannot be described except to call it a spiritual longing and memory of a connection with all there is.

You can only prove that something DO exist.
You can never prove that something DOES NOT exist.

reply to post by fooks
You might want to polish your crystal ball. It's inaccurate.

Originally posted by newcovenant It is easy to see we lost something over the course of the last half century. I am not sure what though. It might have been naivety.

I contend that you are correct. We have eaten the forbidden fruit of knowledge. Blame the internet. We are here at ATS discussing information withheld from us. We were in ignorant bliss before. The more I learn, the less innocent I become, the more disturbed my mind. We can't afford not to know, but we can't afford to dwell on these man made worries. This is why I'm a fan of the willing suspension of disbelief. I agree to forget what I know for a while and return to innocence. I believe this is what a lot of people consider religious experience.

Originally posted by newcovenant I know TV advertises "look what other people have and you don't" and without that in our face daily we would not be tempted by such overwhelming want and greed, so I blame television and not the loss of "religion" for some of the most drastic criminal acts and moral depravity we see today.

TV today is full of bragging and violence. I cannot tolerate cable. Our antenna picks up a retro station. My family gets quality old programming.

Let's not forget video games. Grand Theft Auto is appalling.

Lets not forget parents who defer parenting to TV, Video Games, and the mall.

The mall is a giant advertisement and incitement to acquire.

Reading this debate as an outsider I am really glad there is no pressure on me to make any kind of pledge or oath of allegiance.

reply to post by tomten

I overlooked "secular".

godkind.org...

Easter, Halloween, and Christmas observances are among the most commonly observed religious and secular holidays

The guy doesn't think Halloween was ever Christian

Halloween is not Christian and should not be celebrated by true Christians

The principal fire-festivals of the Celts . . . May Day and the other on Allhallow Even or Hallowe'en, as it is now commonly called, that is, on the thirty-first of October, the day predecing All Saints' or Allhallows Day

Hallows' is an old word for a saint and Allhallows' Eve (31 October) is the vigil of All Saints (1 November), the Christian festival corresponding to an ancient feast of the dead.

From noon of All Saints' Day till midnight of the next day (All Soul's Day), all those who have confessed and received Holy Communion on either of the two days may gain the 'toties quoties' indulgence: a plenary indulgence applicable to the souls in Purgatory every time they visit a church or public chapel, and pray six 'Our Fathers', six 'Hail Marys', and 'six glorias' for the intention of the Holy Father [the Pope]

Halloween is a purely pagan, occult holiday

Incredible as it may seem, the Catholic church, which professes to worship Christ, admittedly has accepted pagan practices into their worship of God.

OH! Under the bus!

At 1st I thought this may be why Halloween isn't a government holiday. However, the party doesn't start until sundown. Anyone who's worth anything in societies eyes can get off work at that time. Well, society may think little of me and avert their eyes, but I still make sure I'm not working Halloween night.

EDIT: I forgot to check your link

www.history.com...

By the 800s, the influence of Christianity had spread into Celtic lands. In the seventh century, Pope Boniface IV designated November 1 All Saints' Day, a time to honor saints and martyrs. It is widely believed today that the pope was attempting to replace the Celtic festival of the dead with a related, but church-sanctioned holiday.

Originally posted by Grimmley
reply to post by DrJay1975

 

OMG I missed this post THANK YOU... Some one else who understands it....

Grim

I am well aware of the difference between the universal God/Creator and a specific religion.

It does not change the fact that a Pledge to Flag/country - - - must not exclude Atheists.

There were many American Atheists in the military/country when the government made the decision to add Under God - - (for political reasons) to a pledge that was in its origin secular.

The government was wrong to make this decision and implement it. It does not belong.

Originally posted by fooks
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

what does the fall of pagan rome do for your point of view?


nothing, i'd say.

Just saying, many people think that since the country was "founded on christian values" (tell that to the native americans btw) means nothing overall...it doesn't mean that it must or will remain that way.
History shows a endless flipping of religions for countrys.

Originally posted by imherejusttoread

Originally posted by TheButcher23
Atheists are one step above Religious people. They have sense and an openness that religious people do not. Atheists do not need to hide behind a wall of pretense in order to feel good about what they do.

As this is 2011 and no 565 AD the belief in god should be taken as a joke or light comedy at best.

Well, if this is what it means to be atheist and religious, respectively. I'll gladly take agnosticism. The amount of contradictions here is quite self-evident to anyone with a sincere openness.

First off, the comment you responded to is incorrect
"Atheists' do not come from one mold...a person whom enjoys mountain dew does not have a singular set of personality traits either...

Atheists simply are defined as a lack of belief in a deity...not a knowing that there is no deity, not a "openness", etc.

Now, your reply..
Explain to me what agnosticism is
An atheist can accept there may be a deity after all, they are simply waiting for proof, until then, to believe in one is simply little more than wishing.
An atheist can be a spiritualist...an atheist can believe in souls, afterlife, elves, etc...or they can be highly skeptical of everything not founded in solid proof and barely even believe in black holes, much less the rest.

agnosticism means you do not know....an agnostic atheist means you do not know, so won't pretend to know if there is a deity

agnostic theist is you do not know, but you believe in a god anyhow...not sure which god, but you generally accept in some form of deity present

agnostic is a adj. it should never be considered a noun as it is far too general.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
Religion harms people

No, idiots hurt people. Religion is just a scape goat. Greed, power etc. will happily fill the void where religion at one point stood. So blaming religion for everything wrong in the world is an idiotic scape goat which shows just how far certain people think.

In the bigger picture, humans are to fault. Not some belief in magical people in the sky. We'll gladly kill people for their tennis shoes, for their wife, for anything.

/rant.

Originally posted by newcovenant
I wondered this too. If we are not all Christians what is he doing on my vacation!
Well we need reasons to take vacations and I think they are calling Christmas Winter Break now. The vacations will stay but I don't think we will even miss this small item in the Pledge. When was the last time you said it anyway? Thanks for your reply!

The better question is, of course, why are christians always celebrating pagan holidays.

Originally posted by Frontkjemper

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
Religion harms people

No, idiots hurt people. Religion is just a scape goat. Greed, power etc. will happily fill the void where religion at one point stood. So blaming religion for everything wrong in the world is an idiotic scape goat which shows just how far certain people think.

In the bigger picture, humans are to fault. Not some belief in magical people in the sky. We'll gladly kill people for their tennis shoes, for their wife, for anything.

/rant.

Religion can be a symptom of a delusional mindset that could use the excuse to harm people

not all those whom practice religion of course are dangerous, many (if not most) are quite peaceful and friendly people, however, the "extreme" elements do tend to show signs of insanity to an extent.

reply to post by newcovenant


I wasn't talking about atheists, I was talking about the other lines of the pledge.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
... excuse to harm people

But see that's my point: If it isn't religion, it's something else. Be it power hunger, greed or whatever.

reply to post by Frontkjemper


When did I say religion was responsible for all the harm in the world?

I agree that even without religion humanity would still have wars, would still have petty conflicts and we will never be truly at peace with ourselves. That doesn't mean we can't IMPROVE conditions or get closer to peace even if full on utopia is unreachable. It also doesn't mean we ignore all the damage religion has caused and just pass it off as mere greed or some other flaw of human nature. These irrational beliefs directly harm people and organized religions hold up these beliefs, simply because without them we would still find a reason to fight isn't a reason to disregard religion. To use an analogy disease will always exist but that doesn't stop us from curing some diseases does it? And we're all agreed that we're better off without things like smallpox right? EVEN if other diseases still existed.

reply to post by freedish

putting "under god" in the pledge ISN'T making a law. it's making a PLEDGE.

Which is a violation of separation of church and state. Of course I've read the first Amendment, however I don't merely take it literally. The Constitution has long been interpreted and the commonly held interpretation of the First Amendment Establishment Clause is that it establishes what Jefferson called a "wall of separation" between church and state. The government is not supposed to stamp approval on any religion, it is meant as and should be a secular institution.

Majority rules, doesn't it?

No. The United States was meant to defend the rights of the minority against the intrusions of the majority. That's why there are two houses of Congress instead of one, so that mere population, mere majority, doesn't decide every law of the land. By this line of thinking it's majority rules and the rights of everyone else be damned. Sorry but it doesn't and shouldn't work that way, especially if we want to establish actual equal rights.

were never a christian nation and i was simply providing evidence to the contrary

We're not a Christian nation, we're a secular nation inhabited primarily by Christians. We were founded by mostly Christians of course, and some deists and even folks like Thomas Paine, who wrote Common Sense, he was a non-believer. The ideas for the government did not come from Christianity or the Bible though, otherwise the first amendment might read, "You shall have no other God's before me" instead of setting up freedom to believe or disbelieve freely.

You are NOT being FORCED to do ANYTHING.

It doesn't matter, it still violates separation of church and state. It may be a somewhat benign violation but that doesn't change the fact that it's a violation of the 1st Amendment.

Originally posted by Frontkjemper

Originally posted by SaturnFX
... excuse to harm people

But see that's my point: If it isn't religion, it's something else. Be it power hunger, greed or whatever.

Sure...yes, as I said, its a symptom, not a cause...if there was no religion on earth, deranged people would probably find some other thing to use in order to excuse bad behavior and violence...but at least then it would be the true root...outward egocentric reasons...conquest or whatever.

But, religion does terrorize small minds...it puts them into supernaturalistic fear of their own very being..a perpetual fight or flight base instinct with its continous promise of eternal torture should you mess up, then adds on that you have to fight percieved demons in life also...and the whole thing can come crashing down if too many people think different than you...so, it could take a mildly unstable person and send them right over the edge.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
When did I say religion was responsible for all the harm in the world?

Not sure you did, but plenty others on ATS seems that once you remove religion from the equation, that we'll all be in some sort of utopia. And I just have to laugh at the idiocy as those people obviously can't think past their own misconceptions.

Originally posted by newcovenant

Originally posted by hawaii50th
reply to post by newcovenant

 

All this useless talk about taking God out, all the while what's really being taken out is freedom. When freedom is gone than all the useless talk will be turned into tears and crying. And then the reality of what happened while many were wasting their precious time looking in all the wrong places will be realized, but by then it will have been too late for most.
For the past 40 years freedom has been taken for granted, money and entertainment has become the new god in this spoiled rotten society.

It is easy to see we lost something over the course of the last half century. I am not sure what though. It might have been naivety. I know TV advertises "look what other people have and you don't" and without that in our face daily we would not be tempted by such overwhelming want and greed, so I blame television and not the loss of "religion" for some of the most drastic criminal acts and moral depravity we see today.

If everyone looked within themselves and accepted their own responsibilities for what they say and do, than the world might be a better place. But most individuals would rather lay blame on someone or something else, direct attention away from themselves and blame the other guy, this is the problem of society. Too many thinking that they are better than everyone else, this is the fools folly.

No - not really.

But - I'm tired of that debate.

I suppose it was muslims that Founded Our Country? Not Christians.

Being an atheist, I have always considered myself to be a little smarter than the average bear... and thus words like "God" imprinted on my money or mentioned in the pledge I sometimes recite at certain events have never bothered me. Why? Because they are just words and they ring hollow with me. So why not with all other atheists? I recently read S.E. Cupp's book "Losing Our Religion" a book pointing out the consistent and on-going attack on Christianity in our country. It's an eye-opener and laced with facts that can not be denied.

There is no doubt in my mind that Christianity is under attack, and it embarrasses me to call myself an atheist because of how my fellow non-believers conduct themselves.... like Rob Sherman who's simply doing what he does because of the bitter feelings he still harbors for his Christian ex-wife after all these years.

And yes, I have had the pleasure of knowing Mr. Sherman... if you'd call it that.

I believe in 'God' ( for the use of a better word) but why does a god have to have a religious background.

Steven Hawking has created the God Gene, lets say he created the big bang 3 million light years away and created what could be a new universe ( or an extention ) then steven hawking in his own right is a 'God'.

I hate the stigma that a God has behind it. I think all religious text's should point back at Steven Hawking because he can create new life