Should A Womans Womb Be Considered Shared Property During Pregnancy?

Originally posted by Rockdisjoint
reply to post by gabby2011

 

What if the father doesn't want her to abort, what happens then?

Does he have the right to put a gun to her head and force her to carry the fetus?

Absolutely not, tha'ts when some kind of contract should be written up , saying he is not ready and willing to raise that child , which could almost be done beforehand, if something were to go wrong with birth control. The woman has the right to decide if she does not want to raise or support the child by aborting it, a father should have legal right to "detach" himself from the situation as well.

Originally posted by Dilligaf28
reply to post by incrediblelousminds

 

Using that same logic would not a man have equal say based upon the years and years of financial burdens associated with the child; the child that if he does want and she doesn't he is denied but if she wants it and he doesn't that he's still obligated for?

There is no comparison between the legal financial obligations our society puts on fatherhood and the phsyical realty of actually carrying a child. To pretend this is comparable is absurd.

Its a basic inequity in the law. Don't forget that justice is blind even to gender. If two people create something both of those two people should have a say in that somethings use/future.

Yes, a 'say'. but not 'equal' which is a myth.

The bulk of your argument appears to be nothing more than rehashes against the feminist movement of the late 60's Feel free to move on, this is 2011.

Originally posted by queenofsheba

Originally posted by milkyway12
reply to post by queenofsheba

 

Stop making it Angelic , yeah pregnancy sucks , but you put yourself on a peddel stool here.

Men give you the ability to be the giver of life.

I never said pregnancy sucked. Your words, not mine. Certainly you put the child's life before yours in many ways. If abstaining from things means your "angelic" then I guess the definition fits. But in my experience, I had a dream of my daughter before I was pregnant and when I asked my husband if he'd like a "brown haired, blue-eyed baby girl" he said yes. And yeah, I was pregnant with her the next month and she looked exactly like she did in my dream as she did on the day she was born. So, in regards to your statement of, "Stop making it Angelic" perhaps it was for me.

She is my angel girl...

I have an Angel Girl too!! I dreamt of her and her name right before 9/11, and 4 months later I was pregnant

reply to post by incrediblelousminds


The child has a direct impact upon the man's life. The child is his seed, his progeny, and to rip it from a womb without his consent is a heart wrenching emotional experience that can seriously damage a man's psyche.

The child is within the woman's body but created of the man and the woman. The child's future is up to both parents not one or the other. It is that simple.

And don't forget a woman's body is not her own to do with as she pleases. If it were she could charge for the sex that produced the child and use any sort of "controlled substance" without fear of legal reprisal.

reply to post by incrediblelousminds


The physical impact upon the woman's body is equalled or exceeded by the emotional bond and financial bond of the parent.

Do you feel that a woman can tell a man that she will have the child even if he doesn't want it and that he better pay for it?

reply to post by incrediblelousminds


My wife agreed that I have equal ownership rights of our children during fetal stage.

She is actually really smart and knows tons of data about all kinds of things, and she is pretty good at critical thinking.

Just saying, when one of the most brilliant women on Earth (my wife), gives me long-winded debates about feminism, she almost always criticizes their irrationality and considers them brainwashed fools.

I guess I should be super happy how lucky I am that I got stuck with a intelligent woman who understands Liberty and Justice.

Originally posted by Dilligaf28
reply to post by Starwise

 

I can't quite grasp how your text is in anyway a response to my statement.

you stated:
Both parents create the child and both parents should have a say in if the child is born.


If the woman lies to the man about how many partners she has slept with, than he has no confirmation that that embryo is HIS!! He therefore has NO SAY, if that child can be aborted or birthed....is that any clearer for you

reply to post by Starwise

Therefore since it relies on maternal blood flow, it is a part of the mother. IT CANNOT BE A JOINT RESOURCE!!!!! That is just RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!

It must be considered a joint resource for her and her child, which is also the child of someone else..therefore a joint resource to them all.

Does the man not have any rights over the welfare of his child if a woman decides that she will inflict harm on the fetus,by being a hardcore drug addict?

Should a man not have the right to control the harm a mother puts his child into , if she chooses not to care? It is his flesh and blood that has to live with the outcomes of bad prenatal care, whether or not she decides to keep the baby after or not. What is happening in that womb, and the choices she is making contributing to the child's health ,is a decision she must make on behalf of her child as well.

Originally posted by Starwise

Originally posted by Dilligaf28
reply to post by Starwise

 

I can't quite grasp how your text is in anyway a response to my statement.

you stated:
Both parents create the child and both parents should have a say in if the child is born.


If the woman lies to the man about how many partners she has slept with, than he has no confirmation that that embryo is HIS!! He therefore has NO SAY, if that child can be aborted or birthed....is that any clearer for you

There should be a way to find out from the womb, because a man has a right to take a woman who is harming his fetus to court. She just can't do any old thing she likes when pregnant, or shouldn't be able to.

reply to post by Starwise


So you feel that an example of a promiscuous woman is somehow meant to serve as good example as to why a woman with virtues and morals should not be obligated in some way to the wishes of the father of the child within her?

reply to post by incrediblelousminds


And what if that woman chose to poke holes in a condom, not tell me, and get impregnated on purpose to lay claim to my financial resources? Should I be forced to just sit back and suffer for her devious underhanded behavior.

And don't come back with "women don't do that". I won't be able to reply for the fits of laughter that will be racking my body should you say that.

Originally posted by Dilligaf28
reply to post by incrediblelousminds

 

And don't forget a woman's body is not her own to do with as she pleases. If it were she could charge for the sex that produced the child and use any sort of "controlled substance" without fear of legal reprisal.

Ummm, sorry, yes it is...........She can charge for sex legally in Nevada.....also xanax, valium, oxycodone etc etc etc are all controlled substances that can be legally taken while pregnant, Oh did I fail to mention I work at a hospital as a nurse and see this every single day......

Originally posted by Starwise

Originally posted by Dilligaf28
reply to post by incrediblelousminds

 

And don't forget a woman's body is not her own to do with as she pleases. If it were she could charge for the sex that produced the child and use any sort of "controlled substance" without fear of legal reprisal.

Ummm, sorry, yes it is...........She can charge for sex legally in Nevada.....also xanax, valium, oxycodone etc etc etc are all controlled substances that can be legally taken while pregnant, Oh did I fail to mention I work at a hospital as a nurse and see this every single day......

well my reply to that is... it is wrong, and the father of the child should have some say into what the mother is allowing into the fetus of his unborn child. Just because it is the law doesn't make it morally right.

reply to post by Starwise


Your points are invalid. To get those prescription drugs she must be prescribed them by a doctor. A woman cannot stand and say "I want to ingest prescribed drugs but I do not have a prescription" and get them.

Despite the laws in a few isolated counties in Nevada prostitution is illegal. A sexual act between to consenting adults is illegal if the exchange of currency is involved. Thats a woman and a man being told what to do with her body. And don't forget that NO woman can smoke marijuana (doing with her body what she wants) because it is against the law.

Clearly a woman's body in its entirety is not her own and neither is a mans.

A man and a woman create life together and decisions regarding that life should be made together. Why do you feel a father has no right to the life he equally helped create? And don't give me that "a womans body is her own" business as we can clearly see it isn't when you think about drug and prostitution laws.

Originally posted by Dilligaf28
reply to post by Starwise

 

So you feel that an example of a promiscuous woman is somehow meant to serve as good example as to why a woman with virtues and morals should not be obligated in some way to the wishes of the father of the child within her?

No Im not saying that, Im not here to argue about promiscuity,.....im just pointing out the obvious situations in life which happens to hundreds of thousands of people every single day........its a fact of life that promiscuity exists. Im not arguing that. Im arguing about the ability to claim an embryo in a womb of a woman is a joint resource of the father! Sucks yeah, life is not always fair....but until that child is BORN WITH FIRST BREATH, it is only alive through her blood, not the sperm donors.....therefore there is no proof he is the father until after birth! Do you get it or am I wasting time here trying to educate science and biology???

Originally posted by Dilligaf28
reply to post by Starwise

 

Your points are invalid. To get those prescription drugs she must be prescribed them by a doctor. A woman cannot stand and say "I want to ingest prescribed drugs but I do not have a prescription" and get them.

Despite the laws in a few isolated counties in Nevada prostitution is illegal. A sexual act between to consenting adults is illegal if the exchange of currency is involved. Thats a woman and a man being told what to do with her body. And don't forget that NO woman can smoke marijuana (doing with her body what she wants) because it is against the law.

Clearly a woman's body in its entirety is not her own and neither is a mans.

A man and a woman create life together and decisions regarding that life should be made together. Why do you feel a father has no right to the life he equally helped create? And don't give me that "a womans body is her own" business as we can clearly see it isn't when you think about drug and prostitution laws.

edit on 25-6-2011 by Dilligaf28 because: (no reason given)

Please do not presume to know me at all....You have no idea what I am about or what my beliefs are.

I stated I work in a hospital as a nurse and see this every day!! Lots of women have anxiety issues and chronic pain that they are already on these scripts when getting pregnant.....They stay on these meds throughout pregnancy. Im sorry you are ignorant to this but its true...

Im done wasting my time here.....out of this thread...later

reply to post by Starwise


I didn't diminish your work nor did I claim to know you. Your rebuttal is meaningless. You did not address any of the valid points I raised.

Your deflection is a nice attempt at not replying but alas it was unsuccessful. There are those that would say its just like a woman to leave the room and declare the argument over without even engaging in any sort of sensible debate.

reply to post by Starwise


The child is alive because the "sperm donor" gave the sperm that the egg needed to be fertilized! Thats science and biology that you seem to be lacking knowledge of.


How can you speak of a man so callously? The egg would have been bled out into a tampon had the man not deposited his sperm. It took two people to conceive that child NO woman (or womyn) can conceive the child on her own without sperm and no woman (or womyn) should be allowed to arbitrarily terminate that life without the father's input; except to say in cases of rape or medical danger to the mother.

Originally posted by Dilligaf28
reply to post by Starwise

 

The child is alive because the "sperm donor" gave the sperm that the egg needed to be fertilized! Thats science and biology that you seem to be lacking knowledge of.


How can you speak of a man so callously? The egg would have been bled out into a tampon had the man not deposited his sperm. It took two people to conceive that child NO woman (or womyn) can conceive the child on her own without sperm and no woman (or womyn) should be allowed to arbitrarily terminate that life without the father's input; except to say in cases of rape or medical danger to the mother.

edit on 25-6-2011 by Dilligaf28 because: (no reason given)

Okay, my sensitive side coming out:

Look, My beliefs are: The father and mother are both responsible. I never said that I didnt think that. I was only stating other sides to the argument. My first child: If my husband didnt want me to have my child, I would have said too f*&^*ing bad buddy....... But when I got pregnant again, I was older and it was unexpected I thought about having an abortion. My husband asked me not to. I didnt out of respect and love. Now if he was in agreement I would have thought more about it, but probably would not have done it....therefore the scenario would have been again, too f*&^^ing bad. Im having this baby.

So often people come on here and they can only see their point of view. Im here to argue that there are many points of view depending on the person, place, situation, man woman or young girl or boy......Just because I have values and morals does not mean that everyone else does.

Even though these are my personal feelings, I cannot let them get in the way of somebody elses liberty. Does that make any sense? If a woman finds out she is pregnant from a boyfriend she has only known a few weeks for example, and she wants to get an abortion because she lives at home without a job, and the boyfriend smokes dope all day, it is the female whose life would be most impacted at that moment in time. If she did not want to have him in her life, deciding he would not be a good father because of his drug abuse, and he found out she was pregnant, she could lie to him and tell him it was somebody elses child so that he would not have any say in her decision. That is just one scenario in life.....that is all I am saying, there are countless scenarios in which a woman might say, Oh sh*t, what the heck am I gonna do. Im not saying abortion is right or wrong, what
I am saying, is that under current law it is legal. Period. The discussion of whether or not abortion should be legal is off topic and has been discussed in many other threads and Im not going into that here......

Look, you cannot force your values on other people as much as you would like to. Its like forcing somebody to believe in God. You cant force that on somebody...

reply to post by Starwise


So a mother cannot force her values (to have an abortion) on a father whom does not want the child aborted.

I appreciate your response and your motives but I do not agree with the notion that a mother can arbitrarily end the life of the child within her without the father's consent.