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Breaking: NY Passes Gay Marriage

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posted on Jun, 28 2011 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by pityocamptes
Morality aside, it still does have some other issues, such as non propagation of species, and non-differing sexes - male/female who have been shown to provide a complete mental stability for adopted children.


So gays are not moral?

Propagation? Who the hell cares.

Children need love - - they don't give a crap what gender their parents are.

Damn! I get sick of this totally ridiculous unfounded archaic crap.




posted on Jun, 28 2011 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by pityocamptes
Morality aside, it still does have some other issues, such as non propagation of species, and non-differing sexes - male/female who have been shown to provide a complete mental stability for adopted children.


So gays are not moral?

Propagation? Who the hell cares.

Children need love - - they don't give a crap what gender their parents are.

Damn! I get sick of this totally ridiculous unfounded archaic crap.



Moral by whose definition? Propagation - I guess Japan and Russia seem to care, look at stats. Children do need love, but studies have shown confusion on gender role. Its not archaic crap. In any event, who really wants to even get married these days? Its all about STATE benefits, etc. if these benefits were gone tomorrow, no one would get married via the STATE.



posted on Jun, 28 2011 @ 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by pityocamptes
Moral by whose definition? Propagation - I guess Japan and Russia seem to care, look at stats. Children do need love, but studies have shown confusion on gender role. Its not archaic crap. In any event, who really wants to even get married these days? Its all about STATE benefits, etc. if these benefits were gone tomorrow, no one would get married via the STATE.


Oh please fill me in on how gays are not moral according to your judgment.

I do not care what Japan and Russia are doing.

What studies are you choosing to read? Are they coming from a religious site?

Truth is - - studies have shown children from same gender parents are better adjusted then those of straight parents. Because same gender parents have great appreciation for being a parent - - and children grow up learning to accept people for who they are. Not judgmental labels - - put on them by the self righteous.

And I do not care about the state benefits. Only that ALL citizens have the same rights.

This is about Equal Rights for a minority group.



posted on Jun, 28 2011 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by pityocamptes
Moral by whose definition? Propagation - I guess Japan and Russia seem to care, look at stats. Children do need love, but studies have shown confusion on gender role. Its not archaic crap. In any event, who really wants to even get married these days? Its all about STATE benefits, etc. if these benefits were gone tomorrow, no one would get married via the STATE.


Oh please fill me in on how gays are not moral according to your judgment.

I do not care what Japan and Russia are doing.

What studies are you choosing to read? Are they coming from a religious site?

Truth is - - studies have shown children from same gender parents are better adjusted then those of straight parents. Because same gender parents have great appreciation for being a parent - - and children grow up learning to accept people for who they are. Not judgmental labels - - put on them by the self righteous.

And I do not care about the state benefits. Only that ALL citizens have the same rights.

This is about Equal Rights for a minority group.



I did not say that they were not moral, you alluded that I said that. I just asked what your definition of moral was.
Studies as in professional scientific studies, not religious - not my thing.
Equal Rights - playing devils advocate, then should I be able to marry an animal, or underaged child? Where does society draw the limit, and who decides what is the limit? Citizens only have the rights that the STATE within which you live allow you to have. Now if you are implying your rights as human then that is different but not necessarily invoked depending on what your "civilization" enforces...

Equal Rights - they can get married via the church, just not part of the legal contractual agreement the STATE has set up. So why the need to push it? Why try to push your way into a system and belief that does not embrace your ideals? Why is sharia law not something that is entertained in this country, should we not afford these people "equal rights"?
edit on 28-6-2011 by pityocamptes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2011 @ 07:45 PM
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Oh yes - - this is what we should do - - because we need more humans on this planet.

And why do we need more babies? Because we need their tax money to pay social security for the elderly - - and to fuel capitalism.

Remember the old days? When extended families took care of each other without government help? What a concept.

Russian and Israeli Mass Civil Marriage Ceremony (this is not the only time Russia has done mass marriage)

June 21, 2011 by Greek News

Larnaca.- (CNA) – A mass civil marriage ceremony was held in the coastal town of Larnaca for a total of 154 couples from Israel. It was the largest number of civil marriages held in one day in Larnaca.

The ceremony took place in the Medieval Castle square for Israelis and Russians who arrived by ship from Haifa. Including the couples and guests, were around 600 people attending the weddings.

The couples were sprinkled with rosewater; the brides were presented with bouquets and were entertained by artists from Israel and Cyprus after the ceremony.

www.greeknewsonline.com...



posted on Jun, 28 2011 @ 07:48 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
Oh yes - - this is what we should do - - because we need more humans on this planet.

And why do we need more babies? Because we need their tax money to pay social security for the elderly - - and to fuel capitalism.

Remember the old days? When extended families took care of each other without government help? What a concept.

Russian and Israeli Mass Civil Marriage Ceremony (this is not the only time Russia has done mass marriage)

June 21, 2011 by Greek News

Larnaca.- (CNA) – A mass civil marriage ceremony was held in the coastal town of Larnaca for a total of 154 couples from Israel. It was the largest number of civil marriages held in one day in Larnaca.

The ceremony took place in the Medieval Castle square for Israelis and Russians who arrived by ship from Haifa. Including the couples and guests, were around 600 people attending the weddings.

The couples were sprinkled with rosewater; the brides were presented with bouquets and were entertained by artists from Israel and Cyprus after the ceremony.

www.greeknewsonline.com...




You didn't answer the other questions...


You don't need to get married to have kids... so why get married?



posted on Jun, 28 2011 @ 07:50 PM
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You are also talking about equal rights on a state contractual agreement, nothing more, nothing less. So why not give equal rights to minors for smoking, drinking, driving, purchasing weapons, etc.? Surely they should have the same contractual rights as adults?



posted on Jun, 28 2011 @ 07:50 PM
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Originally posted by pityocamptes

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by pityocamptes


Equal Rights - they can get married via the church, just not part of the legal contractual agreement the STATE has set up. So why the need to push it? Why try to push your way into a system and belief that does not embrace your ideals? Why is sharia law not something that is entertained in this country, should we not afford these people "equal rights"?
edit on 28-6-2011 by pityocamptes because: (no reason given)


So you are saying you're perfectly fine with the fact that despite being with the same partner for twenty years, my mom's friend's family can deny that partner the right to see him in the hospital? How would you feel if your spouse's family hated your guts and when your spouse got sick, were legally allowed to shut you out of your spouse's life? This is exactly what I'm talking about. The state needs to change the laws. I'm not talking about children, propagation or morality. Just the right to hold the hand of the person you love for years while they are dying.

By the way. My mother was straight. Her straight husband abused me. I would have been grateful for having a stable gay parent when I was a kid rather than the unstable straight ones I had. The old gays can't raise good kids argument is invalid because very few straight couples can raise good children too.



posted on Jun, 28 2011 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by tncryptogal

Originally posted by pityocamptes

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by pityocamptes


Equal Rights - they can get married via the church, just not part of the legal contractual agreement the STATE has set up. So why the need to push it? Why try to push your way into a system and belief that does not embrace your ideals? Why is sharia law not something that is entertained in this country, should we not afford these people "equal rights"?
edit on 28-6-2011 by pityocamptes because: (no reason given)


So you are saying you're perfectly fine with the fact that despite being with the same partner for twenty years, my mom's friend's family can deny that partner the right to see him in the hospital? How would you feel if your spouse's family hated your guts and when your spouse got sick, were legally allowed to shut you out of your spouse's life? This is exactly what I'm talking about. The state needs to change the laws. I'm not talking about children, propagation or morality. Just the right to hold the hand of the person you love for years while they are dying.

By the way. My mother was straight. Her straight husband abused me. I would have been grateful for having a stable gay parent when I was a kid rather than the unstable straight ones I had. The old gays can't raise good kids argument is invalid because very few straight couples can raise good children too.



If you are a partner with someone and the state does not recognize the contractual marriage agreement, there are other ways such as going to court and allowing your mate to have POA, court wills, etc. I'm not saying that they are not good people, I judge no one. Yet, please explain WHY the state should change the laws, given some of the previous examples I gave. Should not these minority groups also have their voice heard?



posted on Jun, 28 2011 @ 08:01 PM
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Originally posted by pityocamptes
Rights - playing devils advocate, then should I be able to marry an animal, or underaged child?


I am just not going to address this stupidity again. It has been addressed on ATS for years ad nauseam. Use your search function.

You say you are not religious - - but everything you post points to that mindset. Something doesn't ring true.



posted on Jun, 28 2011 @ 09:34 PM
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Originally posted by pityocamptes
I did not say that they were not moral, you alluded that I said that. I just asked what your definition of moral was.


No you didn't.

This is what you posted: "Moral by whose definition?"

I did not allude - - but you implied by an accumulation of expressions.



posted on Jun, 28 2011 @ 10:13 PM
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reply to post by pityocamptes
 


Consenting adults are given contractual privileges, minors are not. Therefore, consenting adults are the only people who can engage in marriage contracts. The Constitution really doesn't even address minors or extend any rights to them until age 18. So the laws that are in place for such things as driving, smoking, purchasing weapons, and drinking are somewhat appropriate.

I personally believe that when a person is of an age where they are legally recognized as being able to fight and die for their country, that they should be able to benefit from every single right and privilege that they would be fighting to protect.



posted on Jun, 29 2011 @ 07:45 AM
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Originally posted by Annee
I am just not going to address this stupidity again.


Yeah. Me, too.
I'm done dealing with the blatant willful ignorance. I'm happy to discuss the issue, but it has become clear that there's nothing here but bigotry, whether for religious reasons or hatred-of-self reasons, I don't care anymore. I'm going to concentrate on the positive side of this issue and that is equal treatment under the law for ALL citizens.

Check this out. THIS is the difference between civil unions and marriage. Seven couples with civil unions have been shafted when it comes to their rights as partners. They want marriage! Good luck to them!

Gay Couples to Sue New Jersey over Same-Sex Marriage



Seven gay and lesbian New Jersey couples, along with many of their children, are going to court to try to force the state to recognize gay marriage.

The families say in their legal complaint that the state's civil union law designed to give gay couples the same legal protections as married couples has not fulfilled that promise.

One man says he was denied being able to make urgent medical decisions for his partner. Another saw his partner and children's health insurance canceled by a skeptical auditor. One woman had to jump through legal hoops to adopt the baby of her civil union.



posted on Jun, 29 2011 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


Yes BH. I've been following the fight for gay rights for about 20 years.

There are so many horror stories. It has to be full Equal Marriage - nothing less. I am so proud of gays fighting against Civil Union - - for their Full Equal Rights to Marriage.

There was a documentary on TV recently addressing the issue of how the gay partner had everything stolen from him/her after his/her partner died - - - even when they had legal paper work. Or prevented by relatives from seeing them in the hospital or even going to the funeral.

One man had been with his partner for at least 20 years. They had a farm - where they raised a son (natural son of one of the men). It was somewhere in the southern part of the US. After the one partner died - - some distant relative no one even knew filed suit. The judge gave the farm to the relative. Something about a signature not being in the right place - - something totally bogus just to deny this property going to a gay man.



posted on Jun, 29 2011 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


Yes BH. I've been following the fight for gay rights for about 20 years.

There are so many horror stories. It has to be full Equal Marriage - nothing less. I am so proud of gays fighting against Civil Union - - for their Full Equal Rights to Marriage.

There was a documentary on TV recently addressing the issue of how the gay partner had everything stolen from him/her after his/her partner died - - - even when they had legal paper work. Or prevented by relatives from seeing them in the hospital or even going to the funeral.

One man had been with his partner for at least 20 years. They had a farm - where they raised a son (natural son of one of the men). It was somewhere in the southern part of the US. After the one partner died - - some distant relative no one even knew filed suit. The judge gave the farm to the relative. Something about a signature not being in the right place - - something totally bogus just to deny this property going to a gay man.







You guys need to relax. I'm not anti-anything - just jerking the chain. You do bring up a good point about the "rights" afforded those you seek a state sanctioned marriage. Yet, you can basically do the same thing through wills, power of attorney, and other court proceedings. So basically, why even push the issue for gay marriage when other avenues are available? Actually why would anyone even want to get married in this day and age?



posted on Jun, 29 2011 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by pityocamptes

You guys need to relax. I'm not anti-anything - just jerking the chain. You do bring up a good point about the "rights" afforded those you seek a state sanctioned marriage. Yet, you can basically do the same thing through wills, power of attorney, and other court proceedings. So basically, why even push the issue for gay marriage when other avenues are available? Actually why would anyone even want to get married in this day and age?


You obviously have a strong religious background - - because "your religion is showing".

You say you are not religious - - and perhaps you have moved away from it - - but it has not left you.

NO - - legal paper work is not enough. There are many many factual cases of judges/authorities ruling against gay couples - - and finding bogus reasons to throw out their paper work.

Other avenues are NOT available. That is a fallacy.

Legal Government Marriage is the only guaranteed protection of a surviving spouse or children in a same sex union - - as most states only allow one parent on the birth certificate or adoption paper. (and I am not interested in your opinion on gays adopting - so leave it alone).



posted on Jun, 29 2011 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by pityocamptes

You guys need to relax. I'm not anti-anything - just jerking the chain. You do bring up a good point about the "rights" afforded those you seek a state sanctioned marriage. Yet, you can basically do the same thing through wills, power of attorney, and other court proceedings. So basically, why even push the issue for gay marriage when other avenues are available? Actually why would anyone even want to get married in this day and age?


You obviously have a strong religious background - - because "your religion is showing".

You say you are not religious - - and perhaps you have moved away from it - - but it has not left you.

NO - - legal paper work is not enough. There are many many factual cases of judges/authorities ruling against gay couples - - and finding bogus reasons to throw out their paper work.

Other avenues are NOT available. That is a fallacy.

Legal Government Marriage is the only guaranteed protection of a surviving spouse or children in a same sex union - - as most states only allow one parent on the birth certificate or adoption paper. (and I am not interested in your opinion on gays adopting - so leave it alone).




Key word is "had" a religious background, no longer believe in any of it. Trust me, it has left me. Legal paperwork trumps pretty much anything. Please cite me one case study wherein a same sex couple obtained the legal documentation required for property/person rights and was usurped by another judge or court in favor of the family? Other avenues are available, it is not a fallacy. I think the big push goes beyond the legal contract offered by state sanctioned marriages and really has roots in overturning or rubbing it in the face of the "religious". If you see WHO is on both sides and pushing the agenda, it goes far beyond the mere prima facia of "rights".



posted on Jun, 29 2011 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by pityocamptes
Key word is "had" a religious background, no longer believe in any of it. Trust me, it has left me.


You may think that - - but it hasn't.


Legal paperwork trumps pretty much anything.


NO it doesn't. Not in the case of gay partnerships/family/property etc.

That is a complete Fallacy - - supported by those against gay marriage.


I think the big push goes beyond the legal contract offered by state sanctioned marriages and really has roots in overturning or rubbing it in the face of the "religious". If you see WHO is on both sides and pushing the agenda, it goes far beyond the mere prima facia of "rights".


As I said - - you may have left religion - - but it has not left you. You are in denial.

edit on 29-6-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 29 2011 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by pityocamptes
You guys need to relax. I'm not anti-anything - just jerking the chain.


I won't relax.
This is an important fight for equal rights and I will not relax!



So basically, why even push the issue for gay marriage when other avenues are available?


Straight people have those same other avenues, too. Gay people want to get married for the SAME reasons straight people do.



Actually why would anyone even want to get married in this day and age?


That's beside the point. Why do people want to jump out of planes? Why do people want to have children? Why do people wear make-up? Should we disallow these things because I don't understand why people want to do them?



posted on Jun, 29 2011 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by pityocamptes
Key word is "had" a religious background, no longer believe in any of it. Trust me, it has left me.


You may think that - - but it hasn't.


Legal paperwork trumps pretty much anything.


NO it doesn't. Not in the case of gay partnerships/family/property etc.

That is a complete Fallacy - - supported by those against gay marriage.


I think the big push goes beyond the legal contract offered by state sanctioned marriages and really has roots in overturning or rubbing it in the face of the "religious". If you see WHO is on both sides and pushing the agenda, it goes far beyond the mere prima facia of "rights".


As I said - - you may have left religion - - but it has not left you. You are in denial.

edit on 29-6-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)


Ok so your telling me about what I believe in? You don't even know me... hahahaha

You made the statement that legal paperwork does NOT trump protection of property/person - please cite just ONE example.







 
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