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very cool site on the various Flood Legends around the world.

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posted on Aug, 9 2004 @ 07:41 PM
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Link to this web page if your interested in knowing the details in some Flood Legend myths.

Some of the different regions have interesting common themes. For example the Native American tribes believed that bad people turned into dogs and most of them said the survivors tied their canoes to one tall mountain when the land flooded. I wonder if the flood stories are actually different events or some of them are one in the same. I feel that both are true.

www.talkorigins.org...




posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by lostinspace
I wonder if the flood stories are actually different events or some of them are one in the same. I feel that both are true.
www.talkorigins.org...


Why do you feel that a global flood occured?



posted on Sep, 28 2004 @ 02:34 AM
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Why don't you believe that a global flood, if not at least massive regional floods occured? I just ran into this subject matter in another string where you expressed your stance on the topic of the diluvial (singular or plural) occurence. What is your reasoning for denouncing the idea of the deluge(s)?



posted on Sep, 28 2004 @ 02:38 AM
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Excellent book on the subject, written by to men that researched not only ancient documents, but also Masonic legends that go back to tubalcain, and the two pillars.

www.amazon.com...



posted on Sep, 28 2004 @ 03:18 AM
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Yeah man. Nearly all cultures have a great flood myth.



posted on Sep, 28 2004 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by Howard the Dolphin
Why don't you believe that a global flood, if not at least massive regional floods occured?

Global flooding and massive local and or regional are two entirely different things. One has evidence to support it and is theoretically possible, the other has no evidence to support it (but rather evidence that contradicts it having occured) and isn't even theoretically possible.

Now, I am willing to accept that there is some workable theory to explain how it could've occured, and if someone can come up with a global flood theory that accounts for the evidence that currently exists, then things would be different. Its quite unfortunate really, but no one has been able to do it, at least that I am aware of.


defcon5
Excellent book on the subject

What is the most convincing piece of evidence from that book wrt a global flood? I've heard people mention, but never any evidence that it has.



posted on Sep, 28 2004 @ 05:06 PM
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Thank you for replying, I was just curious to know if you opposed any type of massive flooding or just one that completely consumed the earth's surface. I am currently reading the section in Underworld by Graham Hancock that is dealing with this issue; I will post any new information that he presents.



posted on Sep, 30 2004 @ 03:57 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan

defcon5
Excellent book on the subject

What is the most convincing piece of evidence from that book wrt a global flood? I've heard people mention, but never any evidence that it has.



Without trying to dig up the book and give you actual quotes from it, the general synopsis was this:

That the flood that world wide traditions are related to happened around 12000Bc. It was due to an asteroid that broke and fell into several oceans at once. This created world wide Tsunamis, which where the floods. Watch the movie Deep impact to get a feeling for what they are describing.

The Biblical flood was one that happened around 3000Bc, and was also caused by a smaller asteroid impact into the Mediterranean only. There has since been an impact creator found in the Mediterranean that dates to roughly this time.

They use various scientific means to prove this is the case.

They give an entire chapter based on various traditions about flood mythology from cultures around the world, to show that this event was recorded with a fairly good amount of accuracy even back in the pre-CNN days.

They also go into Enoch, Masonic traditions back to the pillars that where build to save what man had known (also mentioned by Josephus), and the use of Henge’s as predictors of impacts.



posted on Sep, 30 2004 @ 08:33 AM
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no problem, I don't need exact quotes or diagrams or mathematical figures to consider the arguement

As far as considering multiple flood myths, it would be expected that since flooding occurs normally, without the influence of asteroids, that different cultures will have these myths.

I've never heard of any meteor impact in the med. that caused flooding like that described. Also the flood myths don't mention tidal waves but profuse rain.

And as far as 'masonic' legends, how did they get acess to them? And why would the freemasons have any legends that are partiucularly trustworthy, since they've only been around since relatively recent times?



posted on Sep, 30 2004 @ 01:03 PM
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I know that most of the myths speak of a time of profuse rain, however, going off of the tsunami idea that defcon5 presented, I have heard something a bit different. I have heard that the tsunamis came from melted glacier water that was released by either an "ice dam" breaking or the water escaping out of the bottom of an "ice dam-like" structure. This occured on top of the ice sheets which spanned across entire continents during the ice age. When these enormous ammounts of water were released and rushed down the ice sheets, they accumulated into a tsunami wave upon finally reaching the ocean; similar to the effect of a beach creating friction which causes the wave to form. This is what has been explained to me about tsunamis that could have come inland as far as many, many thousands of kilometers. This isn't saying that the possibility of the astroid theory is incorrect; possibly neither of these theories happened or maybe both of them happened, after all, they are just theories.



posted on Oct, 1 2004 @ 11:04 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan

As far as considering multiple flood myths, it would be expected that since flooding occurs normally, without the influence of asteroids, that different cultures would have these myths.



True, but your really have to read the various flood myths for your self, and you will see that the similarities are pretty astounding. Most of the stories leave only one family that survives the flood to carry on humanity.


Originally posted by Nygdan

I have never heard of any meteor impact in the med. that caused flooding like that described. In addition, the flood myths do not mention tidal waves but profuse rain.



Here is a link to a site that I found on a quick search that shows the possible meteor crater:

www.freerepublic.com...

Also while I mentioned the movie Deep Impact in my last post, for brevity sake, in reality they have found that in an impact, rather then ONE large wave such as the movie, it would be a series of increasingly large wave that would wash ashore, increasing in height, and distance they would cover inland. There is no other scientific way to cover the Earth entirely with water, there is not enough even with the poles fully melted.


Originally posted by Nygdan

And as far as 'Masonic' legends, how did they get access to them? And why would the freemasons have any legends that are particularly trustworthy, since they've only been around since relatively recent times?



At least one of the Authors of the book was a mason. If you look at the Masonic legends, which are not to tough to find, even if you are not a mason yourself, you will see that the masons believe their origins date back to the first Artificer, Tubal-Cain, that is mentioned in the 5th chapter of Genesis. At least one of their rites is directly related to the psudopigraphal book of Enoch. Here is a quote and link that I just found relating to this:

www.glnb.ca...



Enoch and Freemasonry

Both York Rite masonry and Scottish Rite masonry have degrees based on what is referred to as the great Masonic Legend of Enoch. These degrees were no doubt fabricated by Andrew Michael Ramsay (the Chevalier Ramsay) sometime in the early eighteenth century. Chevalier Ramsay was a Jacobite supporter having come to their cause while a tutor of James III's two sons. He had also traveled extensively on the continent and lived for some time in France where he became a Freemason and was Grand Chancellor of the Grand Lodge of Paris. Based on his literary reputation the University of Oxford conferred on him the degree of Doctor of Civil Law. Ramsay's idea of Freemasonry excluded any operative connection. He saw its roots in the noble and chivalric orders and based on the military prowess and religious enthusiasm of knighthood. He no doubt encountered the Enoch legend in his continental travels.4 While he may have fabricated the degrees he did not fabricate the Enoch Legend as the following discussion will illustrate.

What has been called the great Masonic Legend of Enoch runs to this effect:

Enoch being inspired by the Most High, and in commemoration of a wonderful vision, build a temple underground, and dedicated it to God His son, Methuselah, constructed the building; although he was not acquainted with his father's motives for the erection. This temple consisted of nine brick vaults, situated perpendicularly beneath each other and communicating by apertures left in the arch of each vault.

Enoch then caused a triangular plate of gold to be made, each side of which was a cubit long; he enriched it with the most precious stones, and encrusted the plate upon a stone of agate of the same form. On the grave he engraved, in effable characters, the true name of Deity, and, placing it on a cubical pedestal of white marble, he deposited the whole within the deepest arch.

When this subterranean building was completed, he made a door of stone, and attaching it to a ring of iron, by which it might occasionally be raised, he placed it over the opening of the uppermost arch, and so covered it over that the aperture could not be discovered, Enoch himself was permitted to enter it but once a year; and on the death of Enoch, Methuselah, and Lamech, and the destruction of the world by the deluge, all knowledge of his temple, and of the sacred treasure which it contained, was lost until, in after times, it was accidentally discovered by another worthy of Freemasonry, who, like Enoch, was engaged in the erection of a temple on the same spot.5

The origin of this legend remains obscure with no known reliable reference alluding to its source. Within Freemasonry it is regarded as traditional and is accepted for what it is a legend. There is however a widely quoted fourteenth century article by Nicephori Callisti6 that would appear to lend support to the veracity of the legend. This article is preceded by an even earlier, essentially identical, ninth century article in the "Epitome of the Ecclesiastical History compiled by Photius. Both of these articles are based on the writings of Julius the Apostate (C.E. 332 363) who apparently attempted to rebuild the temple of Jerusalem. Julius restored paganism and declared a form of religious freedom. As a result of this heresy some Christian authors promoted the writings of Julius as fabrications and totally fantastic. Such a position would make both accounts suspect and of little use as corroborative evidence. In all likelihood, the authors were aware of Julius' apostasy and nevertheless accepted the story. Further study is required.



The freemasons, studied much of the ancient writings, at the vary least to make these ceremonies up. Much of this psudopigraphial writing can be found at this site:

www.earth-history.com...

You will find many of the ancient stories here, whether Hebrew, Sumerian, or Babylonian have many common factors, and can actually add to your understanding of some Biblical issues. For instance, you can find by reading some of these documents that the reason that God was upset about the tower of Babel, was because man built it so they could not be destroyed by anther flood.

You can also find additional info on some of these things in the writings of Flavius Josephus, here:

www.ccel.org...

Hope this helps…



posted on Oct, 1 2004 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
your really have to read the various flood myths for your self,

Yes, I am quite familiar with multiple flood myths. Unfortunately the similarities never end up being such that they should be from the same source. The only interesting portion in this respect is that a bird often goes out and brings a little bit of mud/dirt/land back or some variant thereof. This apparently goes back to shamanistic ritual myths too.


Originally posted by Nygdan

I have never heard of any meteor impact in the med. that caused flooding like that described. In addition, the flood myths do not mention tidal waves but profuse rain.



Here is a link to a site that I found on a quick search that shows the possible meteor crater:
!!! Excellent, Thankyou!! This is possibly the first or second time that I asked someone for some sort of support for their ideas and actually got a link, even better, a link that isn't pravda or crystallinks and the like. And more after this? Excellent.




There is no other scientific way to cover the Earth entirely with water, there is not enough even with the poles fully melted.

Even that isn't going to cover the entire planet with water tho, but it would certainly bring flood like conditions to people inland definitly yes.


Originally posted by Nygdan

And as far as 'Masonic' legends, how did they get access to them? And why would the freemasons have any legends that are particularly trustworthy, since they've only been around since relatively recent times?



At least one of the Authors of the book was a mason. If you look at the Masonic legends, which are not to tough to find, even if you are not a mason yourself, you will see that the masons believe their origins date back to the first Artificer, Tubal-Cain, that is mentioned in the 5th chapter of Genesis.
Interesting, the usual story I have seen has them starting with Hiram Abif being hired to start the great jewish temple.

I do have to wonder, however, at why it would take so long to recover from some of these disasters. Some civs I can understand are wiped out completely, but the events couldn't have been too destructive, certainly not on a global scale, I would expect there to be eveidence of genetic bottlenecking in modern populations to indicate a drastic dying off. And, even after a terrible flood, I would think that there would be enough government officials and people who wanted to get back to the old ways to be able to do it rather quickly, certainly within a generation or perhaps two.



posted on Oct, 2 2004 @ 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan

Even that isn't going to cover the entire planet with water though, but it would certainly bring flood like conditions to people inland definitely yes…..

I do have to wonder, however, at why it would take so long to recover from some of these disasters. Some civs I can understand are wiped out completely, but the events couldn't have been too destructive, certainly not on a global scale, I would expect there to be evidence of genetic bottlenecking in modern populations to indicate a drastic dying off.



Actually they state that the initial 1200BC impact hit in several major oceans, and although alone they would have only wiped out regional area’s, together, they where pretty much a worldwide flood.

Noah’s flood would have been a much more localized event, around 4000-3000bc, according to their theory, but would have affected most Mediterranean areas. You may also note that in some of these areas flood myths, not only is water mentioned, but also fire.

There is evidence of bottlenecking that has been discovered using mitochondrial DNA ( www.bbc.co.uk... ), and this information, while I do not have it here with me at work is in the book. They use DNA, magnetic reversal, and other means to show that this event happened when/as they state. I found that link to the crater after having read the book, and just remembered that it fit in well.


Originally posted by Nygdan

Interesting, the usual story I have seen has them starting with Hiram Abif being hired to start the great jewish temple.



You would have to ask a mason to further clarify this, I am somewhat familiar with the story of Harem Abif, but I also know that they revere Tubal Cain, Enoch, and so forth. Maybe they induct members posthumously…



posted on Oct, 2 2004 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
There is evidence of bottlenecking that has been discovered using mitochondrial DNA

Yes, but this is from a fantastically earlier period unfortunately, and is common to everyone. I was thinking more along the lines of something that showed the americas went thru a local bottle neck, and egypt, and sumer, and the others, rather than this very early universal bottleneck


Maybe they induct members posthumously…

Nice, I like that.






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