Why Don't You People Just Get Over It? Here's Why (PSA Viedo)

Originally posted by timidgal
How sad it is that DaddyBare started this thread with the intention of educating those interested in expanding their knowledge and, in the end, is left in a defensive position where he is forced to endure personal attacks. As has been said many times in many other threads, if you find the subject matter or opinion of any OP to be personally offensive or frustrating for whatever reason, you have the right to move on to the next thread but let's appeal to our better selves and respect the rights of others to express and disuss issues without derailment or personal attack.

DaddyBare, thanks again for the knowledge I personally attained from your sharing of this information. I'm now disengaging from this thread because it sways me from my purpose of being a member of the ATS community (to learn and grow). I wish you well and will always give more attention and consideration to these issues - if nothing else, you should feel good that you changed the perspective of at least one other person.

Be well!

Timidgal

Some of us are just trying to bring some logic to this illogical non-issue. And trying to explain why this is a non-issue and it is not the 'many' that need changing... it is the 'few' who still suggest that there are injustices being imposed on 'non-offending' parties. There are no inocents here. A crazy person, is a crazy person no matter what culture they come from. Nobody is going to treat a crazy person with the same equality as they would a normal person. Equality is earned this day and age because first you must prove that you mean well.

At the risk of seeming disingenuous or self-promoting... I would like to encourage anyone to read this

Chief Seattle's letter - No, the real one.....,

I doubt those who live manifest destiny as some grand achievement will allow the point to slip into their considerations, but some of you may find it interesting nevertheless.

OOOPS - I hit submit too soon!

My point is that despite what some seem to believe, the natives had no illusions about their prospects of harmoniously coexisting with the white invaders. It was clear that the white invaders would rather wipe them out, than share the land they found - and claimed - as their own "property"... a concept which eluded the natives, and rightly so, since it is illogical to assume that you are born naked and die to become dust... but somehow you "own" something that was there before you were, and remains long after you leave.

Adjusting to neighbors is something all humans have trouble with. But virtually none can 'coexist' when there is a systematized effort to eradicate them.

There is no amount of apology or reparations that can undo the past. But continuing the practices that make people somehow less worthy of dignity and respect seems like the act of a remorseless criminal. I think that's why people don't like to talk about it.

Originally posted by one4all
The word indigineous is a fallacy and a creation of a manipulative mind.It does not exist.

Here let me help you out with a couple of definitions.

ig·no·rant    [ig-ner-uhnt] adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
Origin:
1325–75; Middle English ignora ( u ) nt < Latin ignōrant- (stem of ignōrāns ), present participle of ignōrāre to ignore; see -ant

in·dig·e·nous    [in-dij-uh-nuhs] adjective
1. originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native (often followed by to ): the plants indigenous to canada; the indigenous peoples of southern Africa.
2. innate; inherent; natural (usually followed by to ): feelings indigenous to human beings.
Origin:
1640–50; < Latin indigen ( a ) native, original inhabitant ( indi-, by-form of in- in-2 ( compare indagate) + -gena, derivative from base of gignere to bring into being; compare genital, genitor) + -ous

Take the time to learn the meaning of both of those before commenting further please.

reply to post by one4all



If the FEMA camps get filled with people like you, I would encourage it!
Tomorrow I'll drop by at your home with some friends, uninvited and unexpectedly, beat the crap out of you, destroy your family albums and personal belongings and throw you and your family in a cage in the garden.
And I say to your children that it's your own fault!

Though I have native indian ancestory on both my Mother and Father's side, I am still researching my Father's side so can only include information from my mom's side.

The Huron indian tribe were the first indian tribe to contact the french.
Continual wars broke out amongst the Irequois and Huron, after many generations of fighting, the Hurons were finally crushed.

A great number of Huron's were driven from their lands in 1650
The first group travelled to quebec, while the other larger band moved to the Ohio valley.


I would love to have known how things would have been today had natives kept their culture and language, but it doesn't mean that it would have been a peaceful existance. As you can see, the Huron tribe was almost wiped out by the Irequois.

Videos where people just reel off factoids and statistics are not effective. It doesn't get to the point of the story which is how can we help? These factoid videos are no different that all the horrible statistics and factoid videos of human suffering going on around the world right now too (Tibet, Sudan, Sub-Saharan Africa, India, etc.). Everyone is suffering these days and you'll be pressed to get anything more than emotional sympathy from people who are having hard time struggling in this society.

That being said, I completely disagree with this claim in the video that Native American's "identity" was taken away. Native Americans have a story. They have an identity. Don't act like you don't, and that all others do. That's not how many of us feel.

The average white american has no identity. My mom was from Finland, my dad from California, but his ancestors? We have no idea - Canada, yes, maybe France, maybe Ireland, but beyond that - I'm just a mutt.

My mother's parents fought the Russians in the Finnish-Russian war. They suffered, they struggled, but that's not part of my "identity". I don't have a "people" to call my own.

Native American's do. That's something I don't have, so it makes me scowl when I hear Native Americans claim the opposite.

reply to post by one4all


This entire post here: www.abovetopsecret.com... is a good read, but if you scroll down near the bottom, it goes into the kind of thing that happened, when the Europeans, and Spanish came over, and the accounts were horrendous. It was genocide, at the hands of these supposed barbaric pseudo Christians. They were just mercenaries, cutting of limbs,and murdering infants, hanging their mothers, some tried to commit suicide and kill their children first.

Natives are the first nation people, and our ancestors walked in and have since, destroyed, something pure, now deliberately with radiation and staged disasters, GMO.

Its not just to the natural citizens, that we need to feel shame, but just in general, because ironically, North America is supposed to be democratic, which means we have more chance of voting our own in than anyone else, yet.........Seems most are co-dependents and co-creators by their apathy.

My two oldest sons are Native ancestory, Bella Coola first nations people, from the house of eagles.

We should be ready to stand with natives, humbly and learn something for a change, and only use technology that is clean, in fact, I think they need to be the leaders in this movement and we need to listen a lot more

I feel your pain...

One question though, where does all the money go from the casinos? Does it only benefit the selected few? Or does the government own these too?

Unity 99,I also have two Canadian sons with some peripheral Native,Ukranian,English,and Scottish heritage,we all take pride in the diversity of our history,but we all accept ourselves as participants in Humanity FIRST,Participants as Canadians SECOND,and our personal opinions fall into third place.

We try not to dwell on the past and we believe that the past was simply the path to the future NO MORE AND NO LESS,lessons learned are carried forward,or we dont move forward,but as is obvious humanity ,Canada,and we ARE MOVING FORWARD EVERY DAY.

We do not accept failure and defeat,but we do accept the need to adapt and change our personal perspectives to best better and support the forward progression of our species,our country and ourselves.

This means that we all freely choose to accept that our past has been a willing sacrifice to ensure our future,and we DO NOT CHOOSE TO RELINQUISH OUR RIGHT TO MOVE FORWARD BY SUPPORTING PEOPLE WHO CHOOSE TO HANG ON TO THEIR OWN PAST.

I gained two sons when someones tribe lost a war and I am glad for it,I am not sorry,I offer no sympathy or empathy,I am aware that my family and I are subject to the rules of nature every day of our lives,BUT WE STILL CHOOSE TO MOVE FORWARD AND USE THE PAST TO SUPPORT OUR FORWARD MOMENTUM.

I appreciate that cultural diversity is gained at the sacrifice of cultural individuality,BUT WE ALL KNOW VERY WELL THAT WE ARE BETTER TOGETHER UNITED AND MIXED INTO WHATEVER BEAUTIFUL RAINBOW NATURE HAS PLANNED.

And a loss is still a loss,but remember that an individual cultures percieved and real loss,IS HUMANITIES GAIN---AND THEIR CONTRIBUTION TO HUMANITIES PROGRESS.

reply to post by DaddyBare


I may not be native, but i agree with you Daddybare.
Im canadian and i have seen and read about what
happened to the native population here in Canada,
with the schools and reservations. Growing up in
northern BC almost all my friends were native so
i have herd alot of stories about what it was like,
and i spent alot of time on the reservation, so i
have seen what its like. good post my friend
S&F

reply to post by DaddyBare


It only takes one voice to teach. Keep teaching brother!

Who knows, maybe some day we can all get along. But I don't think it will be in our lifetime. But that's the path we walk, ain't it?

reply to post by darius2025

Originally posted by timidgal

How sad it is that DaddyBare started this thread with the intention of educating those interested in expanding their knowledge and, in the end, is left in a defensive position where he is forced to endure personal attacks. As has been said many times in many other threads, if you find the subject matter or opinion of any OP to be personally offensive or frustrating for whatever reason, you have the right to move on to the next thread but let's appeal to our better selves and respect the rights of others to express and disuss issues without derailment or personal attack.

DaddyBare, thanks again for the knowledge I personally attained from your sharing of this information. I'm now disengaging from this thread because it sways me from my purpose of being a member of the ATS community (to learn and grow). I wish you well and will always give more attention and consideration to these issues - if nothing else, you should feel good that you changed the perspective of at least one other person.

Be well!

Timidgal

Originally posted by darius2025
Originally posted by timidgal

Some of us are just trying to bring some logic to this illogical non-issue. And trying to explain why this is a non-issue and it is not the 'many' that need changing... it is the 'few' who still suggest that there are injustices being imposed on 'non-offending' parties. There are no inocents here. A crazy person, is a crazy person no matter what culture they come from. Nobody is going to treat a crazy person with the same equality as they would a normal person. Equality is earned this day and age because first you must prove that you mean well.

Darius - But don't you see that what you're reacting to was not the original intent of the OP? It's always been my philosophy that a healthy debate and exchange of ideas, when conducted respectfully and open-mindedly, will ultimately lead to a broadening of knowledge, but I think there's a disconnect here because we're clearly perceiving the intended message of the OP from different perspectives and you're therefore interpreting my criticism incorrectly. Allow me to explain what I mean. This is how I interpreted this thread - the OP states in his opening presentation:

My hope is by sharing this film maybe I can educate my friends and colleagues here at ATS.

He then choses a film that does not present angry and resentful people spewing at the mouth about past evil deeds done to them or demanding reparation for the past, but which provides concise, factual statistics about how their status in society and current living conditions have resulted in a diminished quality of life and health compared to the rest of the population. The film starts by providing the audience with a brief history of certain key historical events which they feel were the precipitous factors leading to today's diminished quality of life and health because without the background info, the statistical data would seem baseless (and notice that I'm not debating whether certain other events or factors should or should not have been included because that's irrelevant to my point). Nowhere in the film do I hear any of these individuals saying "all of you horrible white people did us wrong and now we want to make you pay and return to us what is rightfully ours". I think we can both agree that had the OP chosen to do so, he probably could have found any number of other videos which would have promulgated the more negative message. From my perspective, the mere fact that he didn't do this and instead used a film that, in the end, merely asked for equal treatment which would enable the Aboriginal people to live equally healthy and fruitful lives, bespeaks his true intent; to educate and not demand retribution or forcibly demand unreasonable entitlements beyond the right to be treated equally and fairly. You yourself said "Equality is earned this day and age because first you must prove that you mean well." I absolutely agree with your statement and it's my opinion that the theme of the film satisfied those requirements in that the presenters said nothing that would lead us to believe that they did not "mean well". That's where my own personal focus on the thread's message ended and where I feel it should have stopped for everyone but, instead, there were those who chose to introduce other aspects into the discussion which resulted in a shift of the original thread's purpose. My comments above were not a criticism of any one person's statements but my own commentary that it was a shame that the OP's original intent was derailed and, as a result, he was subsequently made the target of personal attack. I ended by thanking him for opening my eyes to an area in which I was previously uneducated and in doing so, helping me achieve my own goal of broadening my awareness to issues I've never considered before. Now, it's up to me to continue my self-education in this subject matter and form my own opinions based on what I glean from the information I acquire.

That's it. There was no personal or individual criticism intended in my statement above and my only regret is that my comments provided further fodder for negativity. With that said, I hope I was able to clarify my position in a manner which enables you to understand and be respectful of it, just as I have previously expressed my respect for everyone else's right to have their own personal opinions. I wish you a peaceful evening!

Timidgal

I go up to a resort in Northern Mn every weekend on Lake Winnibigoshish (sp) which is on a premiere walleye fishing lake and is the fifth biggest lake in MN. It also resides within/around the Ojibwe reservation. My first weekend up there, my darling husband had the pleasure of introducing me to his friend who loves, loves to fish walleye. He sat there, in front of me and disrespected the Natives who get to net (by Treaty) and every other word out of his mouth was, "Those F-***** Indians. I was a bit astounded to be honest. After all, here's a guy who owns a Ranger boat, with all the electronic expensive and modern gadgets like a GPS, fish finder, locater, gas powered engine and everything a modern guy could want to fish. And yet, he's making the big complaint and feeling somehow "cheated" out of catching walleye.

Last weekend this resort had a pro-fisherman walleye tournament and I sat and watched all these guys line up in their big, beautiful and expensive boats come into the harbour with their catch. I never saw so many pounds of walleye in my life. And the top prize was an expensive Skeeter boat and some cash prizes. Now, was all this fishing for their "heritage" and "cultural" experience? Or was it for the money?

reply to post by Maxmars


If it had happened in more recent times it would have been called what it was.... Genocide... And would have as much if not more recognition than the holocaust.

We don't have the pictures and film, and records to debate it... Sadly most of them are gone, and a lot of their culture with them, forever.

Hitler would have been very impressed with how quickly and effectively native Americans were slaughtered, massacred and exiled from their lands... Maybe he was inspired by some of that history?

reply to post by DaddyBare


Everyone's faced oppression. What matters is how modern people act. I don't much care about what person X did to Person Y a thousand years ago, but I do care about people alive today. So yea, get over it. And if somebody is still oppressing you, punch him in the face.

Having said that, yea get over it and stop trying to tell me I should respect the great grand children of people who were real heros for having survived such things.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


Agreed.

It's kind of hard to embrace. I would like to think that were I contemporary to those days, I would have not been guilty of the wanton disrespect and ignorance they were. But I think those times were radically different, and no people, no matter how noble they may think themselves, are free of past guilt for unthinkable violence. I suspect it was an inescapable part of our past nature... one which I would think all good people at least try to shed.

The ancestors of those from Puerto Rico decimated and completely destroyed the Taino people. None remain.

Part of me feels tremendously sad about the idea of an entire nation of people being overcome by a technologically superior and apparently insane group of invaders. One's who refuse to recognize the people as worthy of any form of respect, and who only seek to destroy what the people have become up to that point. Perpetual predators.

Another part of me sees this as a story which seems to repeat in history, again and again. The Europeans were not the only one's to kill and or torment another people. It happened to many of them too. Apparently the bad habit transcends race.

In the first place, yes we did own the land in our way. Each tribe considered their hunting area to be theirs. And was bound to that area by treaties with other tribes. Just because that doesn't align with your idea of 'land ownership', doesn't mean that it's false. Indians even made treaties with Whites, who broke every one of your treaties, and now you expect us to believe that you're law abiding, and honor treaties, etc.
And the amount of land that the Americans won from the Indians in wars of land accusition?
ZERO. Not one square inch.
You'll never find where the u.s. congress said, 'we're going to war with these indians to take their land.
It was all done by lies and underhanded tricks.
And 'get over it'? We're 'over' it.
And, since you have dishonored every one of your treaties with us, that means that they are all invalid.
And, by making us u.s. citizens in 1923, you feel that you have invalidated all the treaties, because no country makes treaties with their own people.
We don't accept the 'make-over'
You have never offered us equality, I don't think you're going to start now.
We take our land back as of right now.
You want to define us as a small subset of you.
Your laws make no more sense to us, as our laws make no sense to you.
You don't deserve to control us.
I've got the funny feeling that you're not going to be able to get over it.