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Respect, Corruption, Law Enforcement and You

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posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 02:19 PM
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Semperfortis, thanks for this thread.

Here is my opinion, coming from an average law abiding citizen.

I have been arrested 2x without breaking the law, and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Both times the charges were dropped completely in court.

I used to be on the side of the police, and respected their authority. Not anymore, based on experience, encountering law enforcement is the most dangerous thing you can do in this country. You are at the whim of a stressed out individual, who can do a number of things to you just because you happen to be in close proximity to them.

1) Write you a ticket
2) Arrest you
3) Search your belongings
4) come into your house
5) use chemical weapons on you
6)electrocute you in the name of pain compliance
7)on the spot execution is getting to be more and more popular these days

Honestly, I would rather get into a real gun fight with an officer than be tazed.

The police in this country over the last couple of decades have gone from being helpful, to being absolutely jack booted police state enforcers. Through internal policies, down to changes in law, cops are now completely above the law, and are not subject to the same level of accountability as in years gone by.

Sure there are a few good cops out there, but quite frankly not very many any more.

People are getting mad, and there is a point of no return. It is close.

Things are bad now, but they can get dramatically worse.

As a current law enforcement officer, I would say that you should lead from the front and not be a jackboot. Be nice, and I will be nice to you.




posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis

4. I worked Internal Affairs for years


Quick question on this for you Semper....

How do you feel about citizen review boards, that are tasked with reviewing cases that have been through internal affairs??



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 03:20 PM
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As an addition to my previous post.... Is this just wishful thinking?

Could this be a potential solution to a lot of these issues?

In a perfect world the ACLU would have...

www.aclufl.org...


It is appropriate that in conferring the police with powers, particularly the power to use lethal force, that civilians have a role in determining the standards by which they are policed. And an independent civilian review board affords citizens with an opportunity to engage in that role by providing a venue through which to air grievances, express concerns, and voice recommendations.

It is important to note that for a civilian review board to be truly effective, it must be independent. That is, it must conduct an independent investigation of complaints and not a civilian review of an investigation conducted by a police internal affairs bureau, which would result in the illusion of oversight without the reality. The integrity of the civilian review board will derive from direct civilian review of police conduct, not a civilian review of police review.


Not just to review cases that have been through internal affairs, but to independently investigate cases.

A civilian board with these powers, could potentially go a long way toward making things better in my opinion... But how long would it take to become influenced, corrupt and a problem?

Especially if people with an agenda against law enforcement are on that board?

The ACLU would like to see this happen...

www.aclufl.org...


An effective civilian review board ("CRB") has complaints investigated and reported to its board members within 60 days of having received a signed complaint. Within 120 days of having received the complaint, a hearing is held (usually before three board members), a decision on the complaint is rendered, sanctions are determined, and both the complainant and respondent are informed as to the disposition of the complaint. Due to special circumstances, the entire process can be permitted to extend to 180 days.

Professional investigators, an integral part of the CRB and whom its board members choose, conduct the initial fact-finding in a complaint investigation and submit a report to the Board. In some models, the CRB's executive director conducts the investigation. The seven to nine CRB members are representatives of community organizations (ie - ACLU, NAACP, etc.) and serve in two years appointments, while the executive director is selected by the chief judge of the 11th judicial circuit and serves for six years. The CRB is empowered to vote to remove a board member, appoint new members through a simple majority vote when a vacancy occurs, and petition the chief judge to remove the executive director. The composition of the CRB should reflect the diversity of the city in terms of race, ethnicity, and gender.

The position of executive director is full-time, while the board members are volunteers. It is imperative that the director be a tenacious individual for the first few years of any civilian review board prove to be its most trying. All board members including the executive director should undergo a training regimen before participating in the complaint process. Having current or former police officers on the CRB can be controversial.


Too extreme, or could something like this work?



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 03:58 PM
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I know the truth about "Authority" and "Law Enforcement Officers".

I found out in real life when I had a cop threaten to kill me (by letting his K9 rip my throat out), if I didn't tell him where my friend found our friend Mary J at.

I said "Whats your badge number??" and BOOM my face was into the hood of the police car like that.

Then basically they screamed at me that THEY ARE THE LAW, THEY MAKE THE LAWS, and I AM A LITTLE ***** and I WILL DO WHAT THEY SAY....or they would kill me.

"People disappear out in the desert all the time and no one knows the better" - Texas Cop to me when I was 16.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 04:02 PM
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See thats how "LAW" in America REALLY works.

I get a GUN and now I AM the law, and if you don't follow my "orders" I will shoot you.

And if you force me to shoot you by not getting down on your knees, I will have to convince everyone that you suicide by cop and attacked me thus forcing me to defend myself.

See I would get off scott free 99.9% chance.

And most people know that's how it REALLY works.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


I would honestly like to see a civilian sting operation setup to investigate things like this, hell, actually there are a lot of things that could looked into with something like that. But back to the point, I mean groups of civilians get together and organize a plan to... well, entrap these officers to put it bluntly and honestly. Make it public if necessary, but then I do not suppose it could be a sting then. Whatever, have hidden cameras and mics. Have witnesses, hidden of course for legal purposes and certainly for protection of the "victim" in case things do indeed start going south. The citizens would just have to setup situations that may make it "appear" they may have been up to no good, but still within their legal rights of doing so. That would certainly start taking control back and heck, people might even start having pride in their communities again. I know I would volunteer for something like that, kind of sounds a little fun, especially when evidence that could not be argued with is presented.

edit on 23-6-2011 by Skewed because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 05:17 PM
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Originally posted by Skewed
I would honestly like to see a civilian sting operation setup
to investigate things like this,


basically this is what recording cops on video does.
a civilian sting operation. This is why they don't
want you to record them. It becomes evidence
to show their criminal actions.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 05:21 PM
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reply to post by boondock-saint
 



Right, however, it is has not previously been organized and setup to provide redundancy to make sure the entire episode is recorded. I have to say, for a lot of the cases I have seen can be missing some context to the situation and leaving some holes, that is what has to be cleaned up some and clear up some of the doubt.


EDIT:
By the way, the first thing that comes to mind similar to this and seemed to have a positive affect is the "To Catch a Predator" series.
edit on 23-6-2011 by Skewed because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 05:27 PM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


My only problem with Police Officers is the fact that they enforce bogus laws. Anyone who becomes a Police Officer knows that they will have to enforce drug laws, and many do it willingly.

It is infuriating to me for so many people to believe that they need permission to buy, sell, or ingest narcotics. As long as drug laws exist, I will hold zero respect for Police Officers and the law equally.

Another thing that is irritating is the idea that I cannot protect myself. I do not need the Police to protect me. As a citizen of the American Union I am perfectly capable of training with weapons and martial arts, I do not need some guy in a blue suit holding my hand.

But that is exactly the type of world we have been trained to live in. One where we cannot make simple decisions for ourselves, and the thought of protecting ourselves, and our property, with physical force is shunned.

I wish I could have lived in the United States sometime in the 1800's when our republic was still awesome.
edit on 6/23/2011 by dalan. because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 



All of the real life ones with more courage then just posting on a forum, inevitably, and I mean 100% of the time, are the first to cry "Where were the police when my brother was shot" or add your own statement they are all identical..


Like I said, if this were the same republic that we had in the 1800's, then your presence would not have been nessecary when "my brother got shot." Each of us would have had our own six shooter, and each of us would have been shooting back.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 06:22 PM
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Semperfortis:

If you can tell your 1985 self something, what would you tell him?

And,

Out of all the things, what does your 1985 self tell your current self the most?


+5 more 
posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 06:27 PM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


It's amazing. I too spent time in the military (10 years). I started my police career in 1989 and had to quit and go back into the service because the pay was so low back then and I had child support hanging over my head. Of course I was not a Marine so that pretty much negates my service career. Anyway back on topic. I too am in a position of leadership and will not tolerate anything unethical from my officers.
I have probably been the most critical and honest outspoken cop on ATS about the issues you have discussed. I called a spade a spade, and you found that a little too harsh I guess. Yet, you took it upon yourself to disrespect and call me out on ATS Live and to my knowledge have never corrected your error.
You are a fellow officer and if the opportunity ever presented it's self I would take a bullet for you, but you lost my respect a long time ago.

Seeashrink



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 06:37 PM
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What does it say about the law when the ones it is supposed to protect have questions about the implementation by it's agents are considered the "enemy" of same? I would love to try and convince a cop I beat the hell out of someone because of a general lack of respect and the fear of being sued or that they failed to comply with my whim. Noted the difference between granted authority but I question both the authority and the implementation as it is today. When the ones sent to serve the community look at the community as an enemy to be wary of it is long past time to fire the lot and start over. A public servant should be that and subject to those served before all others.
seed



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 06:45 PM
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Hey semperfortis, still looking for examples of corruption?

www.abovetopsecret.com...&flagit=720206

if you haven't abandoned your thread, that is.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 06:50 PM
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Contrary to what some on here may be in a position to do, I have a full and satisfying life outside of ATS.. (ATS is certainly a part though)

No one has abandoned anything

But I have radio shows to do and a 50 hour week to work and keep me in my toys

Your examples of corruption pale fail in the face of the statistics

Semper


+1 more 
posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 07:06 PM
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I have no real problem with cops in general. They do I job I wouldn't want to do. I'm sure cops range from good to bad and everything in between, just like everybody else.

I would, however, like to mention how the OP struck me as I was reading it, for what it's worth.

Originally posted by semperfortis
I remember when I first decided to pursue a career in law enforcement; it was almost as a last resort. I was not what you might call a prime candidate; at least I never thought so. I was something of a renegade, a “wild child” if you will and the people I grew up with in West Virginia will certainly attest to that. As a young man growing up in rural West Virginia I had several “scrapes” with the local police, ran from them on several occasions and was even escorted back to my Granny on one very embarrassing and eventually painful day.

I was a rowdy kid and got in fights a lot.

Then after college came the Marine Corps where I thought fighting was mandatory and found myself in the hot seat several times. Yet I made it out and got my Honorable Discharge.

I fought a lot in the Corps.

There I stood, outside the base, a free man and thought; now what? I can shoot and fight, I wonder if the Mafia is hiring.

I wonder if I can get a job beating people up?

I came home and got a call from the friend of a friend and next thing you know I was being handed a badge and a gun and told to go to work.

Joy! I can beat people up legally!

The point to all this wondering is that back “in the day” having served in the armed forces, specifically the Marines, was almost a free ticket into police work. The thought process was the man or woman would have good discipline, would be able to take orders and could handle themselves in a fight. They were not far off in point of fact; because back then we fought. A lot.

I beat up a lot of people.

There were no Tasers, no fancy OC Spray, no ASP Batons, just a pr24 (if you were lucky, a night stick for most), a portable that looked like a loaf of bread, your hands and your wits. Most times there was little if any backup available, so the portables, while useless anyway, were never really relied upon. You needed to be able to handle yourself, or you did not last long. Many left early on as it was not the lifestyle they envisioned. We fought and we won

Nothin' like a good fight! I beat up a bunch of people.

However unlike today, the people we fought never pulled a gun, or rarely I should say as I had some interesting encounters, they did not knife you, they were just old drunks that would fight you, you would kick their butts and put them in the holding cell for the night, take them to the Magistrate the next day where their wives would pay the small fine, they shook our hands and went home until next weekend. We fought. Matter of fact that is/was how respect was earned back then. As funny as it may sound, they respected us and in a strange way, we respected them as well.

Yeah, the good ol' days, when we could beat people up. and they just took it!

We fought, earned respect, gained a reputation and did our jobs.

Everybody was afraid of us, because they knew we'd beat 'em up.

Now we have college boys and girls that stand 50 feet away from granny and taze her if she does not comply. Instead of just walking up and slapping the cuffs on her, they gas her. Now how is anyone supposed to respect that?

I long for the days we could just beat 'em up.

The gradual change I have referenced is of course the sue happy people of this once great nation. The police can't physically assert their authority, can never build a reputation because the moment they lay hands on any one of you, you will sue them; and the liberal courts, or liberal jurisdictions will award them money and at the very least they lose their jobs or even worse, their homes and other possessions.
Yet they are still required by YOU to enforce the laws of their particular jurisdiction or again lose their jobs. What a funny little society we have that requires miracles from our police.

These days. if I beat someone up, they'll probably sue the crap out of me. I don't think I like this job any more.

I have investigated incidents where a shooting occurred when the officer on the scene may have hesitated in the face of an obvious shooting situation. Luckily they survived and when I talked to them and asked why they did not draw and fire, their answer was: “Man I have a family”. They could have died due to the fear of a lawsuit...

*sigh* All the good old cops are gone.

I'm not saying that's how it is, just that that's how it came across to me. It does beg the question, maybe this has something to do with why people think all the cops want to beat them up? Maybe decades of cops who joined because they do like to fight, a lot, have shown the people that's what cops are all about, beating people up. Obviously not all the cops, but enough for the people to get the message.

Now, enough people know that they don't have to put up with it, and can, indeed, sue the crap out of the cop who beats them up. It's a different world from "back in the day" when people figured they were just expected to take their lumps. It's harder to just thump someone with impunity, thus the tasers and gas.

Again, I'm not saying that that's the truth of the matter, I'm just kinda speculating on the subject. It does seem to make some sense, though. If true, I don't think it would be the only factor, either. I'm sure there are lots of reasons that people see cops differently today. The ridiculous amout of laws we have is probably another factor. The fact that people in general seem stupider than they used to be, for whatever reasons, is most definitely a factor. They take stupid chances, and make stupid decisions (like starting a shoot-out instead of just an old fashioned fight).

So don't be offended, Semper. I'm just adding to the discussion, not saying that you're some kind of psycho who likes to beat people up all the time.

Really.
edit on 23-6-2011 by subject x because:




posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 07:10 PM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


Semper has a life...


Answer what you can when you can.... Don't take it personal, we can all learn from this.

When it comes to statistics, no offense, I don't trust them.

The same way that the good that police do (often with no record to be added to stats) bad can be done and there is no record of it.

A CHP officer (a hero in my opinion) saved my life and the lives of others a couple of years back, literally! I can't go into details about it, but I know there is no record or report of it, anywhere, and so there are no statistics or anything to support it... What about the cops that stop to help people every day?? The ones who go out of their way and above the call of duty, for nothing more than a thank you?

I'm sure there is a hell of a lot of that, but again, where are the statistics to support it?

Is it also safe to assume that there is a fair amount of "badness" that happens and in a similar way never makes it into the "statistics"?

Statistics are good, and a great way to measure many things, but can fail at times to fully express the reality of things.

Just my opinion, again thanks for whatever time you have to share here Semper, you have my respect for stepping up here.


Don't take it wrong, I think most of us are just seeking answers, and truth, and we all want a law enforcement system that works well for everyone.

Despite negative responses, your perspective is appreciated here.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Thank you for your time and I will gladly try and answer any non-leading questions you may have.
Semper


Semper you & I have talked before so you know I respect you as a person & a professional.

I have to say that I believe what you have done here is comparable to deliberately misconstruing the meanings of words to make something stick. its a very lawyer thing to do. What I mean is that if a cop is using excessive force his morals are corrupted. His self control is corrupted. His credibility is corrupted. He may not be getting a bonus in his pay check from the chief if he kills the homeless man rather than taking him in (saves paperwork) but his actions as either 'just a butt cop' or one using excessive force still make him a 'corrupt cop'.

I also have to say that I personally have nothing to do with the increase of cops who behave abhorantly & that the fear of being sued over excessive force is a flimsy excuse, fear of death through starvation can cause a parent to consider selling their children, but a cop allowing himself to be shot from fear of being sued is imho making a fatally STUPID move, simply as that. Also a cop allowing himself to be shot from fear of being sued if he fired himself doesn't prove your point about corrupt cops in general & abhorant behaviour of cops in general. When you firmly point the finger, (the "YOU are to blame...etc..." bit) I would agree that you are partly blaming the right people, and leaving other people equally to blame out of the picture completely - i.e. the police. Have you considered the quality of persons entering the U.S army to go to the middle east & joining the police afterwards is not what it used to be? that the values, perspectives & ideals of these modern young soldiers is different? I believe many of them aren't thinking for themselves & what they are thinking is really bad for humanity. To be honest I doubt its that different at all & tend to believe that a large percent of soldiers would not be fit to be police officers & it has always been this way. I think that for many reasons incl. ptsd. A police officer cannot hear a news hellicopter fly overhead & suffer flashbacks to the war & still do his job properly - it wouldn't be fair on anyone.

I wish I could say something more about fear of being sued Vs. corrupt acts but you yourself are drawing a distinction between excessive force & corruption but then using an excessive force example in what seems a statement about corruption....thinking about your op as a whole & what your point was in order to reply I have to ask...

are you saying that if the public were less shall we say 'soft & pc' & were better able to take a 'good old beating' cops wouldn't be afraid of being sued & therefore able to apprehend the grandma without tazing her? seriously?

because thats exactly how it reads....

-Bob
edit on 23/6/11 by B.Morrison because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 10:17 PM
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Simple fact is that laws are put in place to oppress, control and create revenue by using tactics of fear created by intimidation or physical force.

Has absolutely nothing to do with actual justice. As a matter of fact the way this entire system is run from the top all the way down to the bottom is the actual embodiment of terrorism itself.

This is the reason people have no respect for police. It's not ATS members.People seem to be awakening to the fact of what's truly going on.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


What are your thoughts about officers arresting people for videoing arrests? If the police are doing their job, they shouldn't be worried about anyone videoing them. The police can video the public, the municipalities can install cameras at intersections and on public corners, yet the public is being threatened with an arrest when they video the police?

This sounds like a double standard and a way to avoid being caught doing something wrong like excessive force.
I can understand police officers can be under a lot of stress, may have a bad day and possibly lose control. However, I've never heard of any other officers stepping in and pulling another officer off who exceeded the use of force to apprehend a criminal.

Also, we all have heard about the thin blue line, how officers will cover each others butts. I've read that it happens in the military, so I'm sure it happens in the police force.




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