Respect, Corruption, Law Enforcement and You

Originally posted by Demoncreeper

Originally posted by mustard seed
Lord God save us!
As if the ones who those same crazy laws are enforced upon are nothing all over again and poor armed and armored LEO who CHOSE to do the job of enforcing those laws. Which by the way are largely NOT passed by the people but dictated by the government. But here again it is the poor,poor psuedo-proffesional whining how "ignorant" non-LE are.
This statement though when looked at closely is what corroborates my assertion about Semper and most other LEOs

"Some laws are $hit, some politicians are $hit, a lot of society is $hit. Common denominator = people."

Do the math people = $hit.
Tempted now to flag this thread for Semper it really is exposing what we are buying with our LE dollar.
seed

That's right. Blinders go both ways, pal.

Society in general has -petered down to this. You are right, I am not.
Lord saving you or I is not going to happen.

Instead of whining about who is more ignorant, why don't you suggest your ideals, so that your mindset can be understood.

I know people don't pass laws, they cry for new laws to protect them. When they get them, or variant of whatever they needed to feel protected from, we get this user. Angry and equally as ignorant as I.

Sweet.

Angry perhaps but do not assume ignorance in fact I resent the accusation.Ignorant implies I do not know about what I am speaking, but I have been crystal clear and concise in what I say and it is not born of the ignorance you claim for yourself and erroneously ascribe to me.As a public servant if you have contempt for the public you do not deserve your job, your paycheck or any sympathy for the reaction you receive from those you disrespect.Do NOT complain and point fingers at the public...servant. Get it? Public Servant. Serve the public. If you do not wish to do this you should be fired as you are not worthy of the public trust or our finite funding.
You see very clear. Born of indisputable facts not ignorance.
Again you show you are not even fully aware of the depth of contempt you hold for those who pay your check.
seed

Originally posted by mustard seed

Originally posted by Demoncreeper

Originally posted by mustard seed
Lord God save us!
As if the ones who those same crazy laws are enforced upon are nothing all over again and poor armed and armored LEO who CHOSE to do the job of enforcing those laws. Which by the way are largely NOT passed by the people but dictated by the government. But here again it is the poor,poor psuedo-proffesional whining how "ignorant" non-LE are.
This statement though when looked at closely is what corroborates my assertion about Semper and most other LEOs

"Some laws are $hit, some politicians are $hit, a lot of society is $hit. Common denominator = people."

Do the math people = $hit.
Tempted now to flag this thread for Semper it really is exposing what we are buying with our LE dollar.
seed

That's right. Blinders go both ways, pal.

Society in general has -petered down to this. You are right, I am not.
Lord saving you or I is not going to happen.

Instead of whining about who is more ignorant, why don't you suggest your ideals, so that your mindset can be understood.

I know people don't pass laws, they cry for new laws to protect them. When they get them, or variant of whatever they needed to feel protected from, we get this user. Angry and equally as ignorant as I.

Sweet.

Angry perhaps but do not assume ignorance in fact I resent the accusation.Ignorant implies I do not know about what I am speaking, but I have been crystal clear and concise in what I say and it is not born of the ignorance you claim for yourself and erroneously ascribe to me.As a public servant if you have contempt for the public you do not deserve your job, your paycheck or any sympathy for the reaction you receive from those you disrespect.Do NOT complain and point fingers at the public...servant. Get it? Public Servant. Serve the public. If you do not wish to do this you should be fired as you are not worthy of the public trust or our finite funding.
You see very clear. Born of indisputable facts not ignorance.
Again you show you are not even fully aware of the depth of contempt you hold for those who pay your check.
seed

Again arguing over who is most arrogant. You win. haha. I served the public who trusted me to uphold the laws. My paycheck came from the fines issued to the public who broke laws. I have no contempt. Your perception is wrong. Plain and simple. You are the angry. You generalize me into whatever triggered your contempt for LEO's.\

Its ok. I'm going to go through and answer NURO's post now. He, at least, speaks with a more open mind.. Not through resentment to a blanket badge.

This Thread is apparently being used to corral us so called "Conspiracy Theorists" into a discussion on Law Enforcement will likely be used to gather and monitor more public sentiment on various controversial topics by the Govt. data mining operation here on ATS. Maybe even as far as gaining more candidates for the Red List.

reply to post by nh_ee


agreed, i feel this entire site is being used for this purpose. but too late for me.

Wow, just wow.

Sad, and revealing commentary on the real state of our union here.

Doesn't seem to be much hope of finding workable solutions here.

Maybe we are too bitterly divided now, it is us and them, a line in the dirt.

In the last 800 years or so, the human race has advanced in technology, but has not advanced much anywhere else.

reply to post by Demoncreeper


I have had it with the baiting tag team *snip*. First told it is the publics fault LEOs beat them, taze them and pepper spray them Now this clown cop starts with ignorant and moves to arrogant in his "name calling" . I never said all cops were bad, in, act, I posted of a very good fiend who was a State Cop. I am saying that cops like those who are in this thread are bad employees and do not deserve the trust or paycheck the public they look down upon provides. It is not ignorant, it is not arrogant, it is business. There is a problem, We as citizens ultimately must find solutions. The first solution in a business is if you have employees who dislike the customer is to hire new employees with different attitudes. LE has too many violent toys that need to be taken away and the nature of the job fosters aggressive and violent behavior.
Give some one that much pwer over another and you get
www.prisonexp.org...
on the streets and busting into our homes.
We will get more respect from both sides when LE is reigned in to their rightful place as "Peace Officer" and the ones with the attitudes shown here weeded out and disallowed from authoritarian positions in the future, call it "terms of probation"


seed

Originally posted by NuroSlam


Fair enough, I have addressed this before but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and do it again. One very glaring issue that more and more people are having with the LEO is the enforcement of unjust laws, regardless of how they came to be or why. The blind eye that is being applied when it comes to these laws as "im just doing my job","just don't break the law" etc... It is these responses that to the person addressing them takes as a slap in the face to intellectual debate.

But it is like any job. If you go to the bar, and your picture I.D. was misplaced, the bouncer most likely will not let you in. As his rules, if not followed, have repercussions. Even if you are a grey haired 45 year old. If you don't have the picture I.D., he may have to deny you entry, based on the rules of their house. No I.D., no entry. Might be a stupid rule, but bouncer has to do it, or he loses his job. We don't use the excuse to proverbially slap people in the face. We say it, because if it is a law and we don't enforce it, we aren't doing our jobs. Therefor can lose it. My personal feelings on any in house rule, or law, does not effect my integrity of upholding that rule or law to the best of my ability.

There is one area that more than anything else leads to this, and that is the war on drugs. To me, its a 50 billion dollar LE business with very little being spent on the treatment of the problem. Its an iron fist on the individuals right to decided how he/she should live their life and protect his/her property. Now, personally i feel the constitution is barely worth the paper it was written on, but if I am required to live under its principles, then I would expect that those who are entrusted with the insane amount of power that LE has to uphold that very same document. No where in the constitution is Government granted to authority to dictate what a person does or does not do with his or her body unless the action causes harm, injury or damage to another's life, liberty or property. In fact there is an amendment that actually prohibits it if one were to apply the same interpretation of laws to charge people with crimes truly shows that it is unconstitutional to protect one from his or her vices.

That is the 21st amendment, the repeal of prohibition. The enacting of prohibition caused one of the most violent times in the early 20th century and allowed people like Al Capone to come into power. Its repeal allowed America to return to a state of civil peace. The drive by killings stopped, the death of innocent children stopped, the bombing of businesses stopped. But those who wish to dictate and wield power over others didn't learn their lesson and the declaration of war on the American people by Nixon happened.

The problem is, that those crimes didn't stop. They just stopped over those reasons. I am not too familiar with the American constitution as I am Canadian. However, I would agree, that a document written over 100 years ago is mostly inadequate to govern society and how it has evolved since. I find some of the American laws much more ridiculous and weird, than Canadian laws. However, the main laws that street beaters are really dealing with, are the main ones you mentioned. When a crime or possible crime becomes slightly more complex, special units are dispatched. They have higher educations, more training, higher paygrade and real answers.. This does not help the officer in the face of the incident, until the SU arrives. The lack of training frustrates a lot of officers into saying and doing the wrong things. Or not knowing how to react at all..The worst an officer can be is confused. Sadly, it happens often, when the laws being broken, were more complex than the main property/person crimes. Another reason, of the many, for my departure from law enforcement, was the potential for confusion and my inability to be able to react, based on training. That is dangerous on soo many levels. I am a huge advocate of more advanced training needed on multiple levels, across multiple fields of law enforcement.
So I don't disagree with you.

A new black market for drug arose and has lead to the deadliest wars ever to grace the shores of America. Drug cartels sprung up almost overnight, we now have war in the streets of every city in the US, gang vs gang, gang vs cop cop vs citizen. I can not remember the last time I have been pulled over and the second thing out of LE's mouth is "any guns or weapons in the car" followed by "are you sure there are no drugs in the car". This is offensive, I do not do drugs, I don't look like I do drugs, I don't drive some pimped out ride, I have no visible tattoos, so yes, I take offensive to the idea I might have drugs.

I don't want to offend you further by saying you are judging a book by its cover. But you really are here. It is not just people that look like that, drive pimped out rides, visible tattoos, etc and so on, that have drugs, weapons etc in a vehicle. The arena of enforcement that I am in now is blue collar. 90 % business men and women. Of those, I know that at least 60 % ish engage in coc aine, marijuana, drinking driving, and some partake in other higher end crimes. Mostly in social settings, but does that make it less against the law? Many MANY people, that don't fit that description, have turned out far more dangerous than ones that do.

It isn't contempt for the public that guides our questions, it's experience with them. Just like so many on this thread's contempt for leo's is based on experience. I don't discredit them for that at all. By the way, I have a shaved head, long triangular beard, many visible tattoos in a sleeveless T, drive a PIMPED out 78 lincoln continental on Sundays (was my grandfathers)..haha. I do not engage in any of the criminal activities you mentioned, by said look a likes. I'm in a metal band, and the image helps.

As part of this war on drugs, we now have no knock warrants, that has led to more then one innocent families life being destroyed, people being shot in their beds, their pets being killed, their children being traumatised by the actions of the LEO kicking in a door and holding a gun to them.

This happens with gangster shoot outs, robbery's, drive by's, all in the name of control of said narcotics. Much more than police. The property crimes, the collateral damage, that affects the public, who, now cry for stiffer laws and penalties to be inflicted to said drug perpetrators.

That said, I STRONGLY agree that it should NOT be happening from Law Enforcements hand. When dealing with military tactics to eliminate the danger, on behalf of trained officers, there should be NO mistakes. It's even ridiculous to think that there is. But there is. Can I chalk it up to being "human"? no way. How about the old "everyone makes mistakes"? Nope. Those are "cop outs", pun intended. But the action of these officers were originally intended to reduce the threat, problems, crimes and danger to the public of whom they serve. How do we fix that? Training? Possibly. Mistakes in those kinds of situations should not be tolerated. But...take away the ability to strike at the problem at hand, and it spreads and spreads until the drug dealers and bad guys are in charge of everything. Some may think that might be better...but it isn't. It would be like a prison community but on a grander scale. Think you are a slave now? When they kill innocent people, they actually do it with malice.

Its obvious, minus the war on drugs, we would not need half the LEO's we have now. Yes, drugs are a problem, but war is not the solution.

No, it clearly isn't. But what is? It is what there is now. There has yet to be a "better" solution proposed.

Yet any time, these facts are mentioned, we get the usual "its the law","following orders","don't like it change it". Its so very rare for a LEO to admit its a failure, that lives are being destroyed, that property is being stolen and sold for a profit by there very people we once believed were in the business of protecting us from our enemies both foreign and domestic. I grew up believing that the Peace Office was the last line of defence against the ever encroaching totalitarian power of the state. Now, at the age of 45 all those illusions are gone.

Why should I ever respect someone who can't even address the issues that we raise?

Man, I all I can tell you is how it is supposed to be. In my family, there have been war heroes, fighting for the freedoms you now have to be able to express yourself without restraint, in such a global medium. Then law enforcement, father to son, etc..the full out. We never bragged about kicking ass, taking names, we bragged about saving children, families, and smiles we received from doing good. As that is how it is SUPPOSED to be, right? While watching it really crumble in every facet. Both inside and outside law enforcement. There ARE many left who still work that way. There really are. The red tape of the rules and laws makes the job very difficult to stand back and admire your work, like a painter, or carpenter. Some days, before I even finished the paperwork the people that were arrested, caught red handed, were released and walking by my cruiser, ready to get back at their "business".

It has become convoluted and there are problems. The disrespect doesn't help either side. Close to the end of my career, I can't count how many times that I've approached a situation before even speaking, was spat on, called PIG, Bacon, hiding behind my badge, gun, etc etc. Before I even said "hello". That happens at least once every day to every officer out there. I'm sure.

But I never returned that disrespect. Sadly, some do.

Do I have a solution? No. Suggestions only. Want to hear them?

Originally posted by mustard seed
reply to post by Demoncreeper

 

I have had it with the baiting tag team BS. First told it is the publics fault LEOs beat them, taze them and pepper spray them Now this clown cop starts with ignorant and moves to arrogant in his "name calling" . I never said all cops were bad, in, act, I posted of a very good fiend who was a State Cop. I am saying that cops like those who are in this thread are bad employees and do not deserve the trust or paycheck the public they look down upon provides. It is not ignorant, it is not arrogant, it is business. There is a problem, We as citizens ultimately must find solutions. The first solution in a business is if you have employees who dislike the customer is to hire new employees with different attitudes. LE has too many violent toys that need to be taken away and the nature of the job fosters aggressive and violent behavior.
Give some one that much pwer over another and you get
www.prisonexp.org...
on the streets and busting into our homes.
We will get more respect from both sides when LE is reigned in to their rightful place as "Peace Officer" and the ones with the attitudes shown here weeded out and disallowed from authoritarian positions in the future, call it "terms of probation"

seed

You are perceiving and twisting things in a way that isn't factual. I never said it is the public's fault when an innocent is beaten and tazed.

The rest of your paragraph is mostly agreeable. However, the "violent" toys, are supposed to be tools against the ever growing violent criminal.

NOT to be used against someone who doesn't deserve them.

TRAINING is a HUGE issue.

I've always advocated that officers shouldn't be allowed anything for the first year. They should be paired with a veteran, made to be first contact in ALL situations. Backed up by the senior officer with the tools. That way, the trainee would learn how to interact. Because you are right. Out of depot or training, these guys strap on all this #, and don't "need" to talk anymore. That is the attitude I see.

Learn to talk. Then you get your tools. I rarely used mine. RARELY. I ALWAYS talked first. That is me.


I still have to say that LEO's are sworn to protect the public BY upholding the laws. Yes we serve the public. For it was their laws that they asked for, voted on, lobbied for. Etc. How can a leo be wrong by doing that?

If you look at it as me being YOUR employee, then fine. Customer service can be key. haha. Sometimes the customers are real A$$holes though. I will not bend the law's the public entrusts me to enforce just because you or I think it is stupid.

Originally posted by Demoncreeper

I still have to say that LEO's are sworn to protect the public BY upholding the laws. Yes we serve the public. For it was their laws that they asked for, voted on, lobbied for. Etc. How can a leo be wrong by doing that?

If you look at it as me being YOUR employee, then fine. Customer service can be key. haha. Sometimes the customers are real A$$holes though. I will not bend the law's the public entrusts me to enforce just because you or I think it is stupid.

##SNIP##

If you wish to discuss further......www.abovetopsecret.com...
I am a reasonable person if not insulted or baited

seed

Originally posted by mustard seed

##SNIP##


If you wish to discuss further......www.abovetopsecret.com...
I am a reasonable person if not insulted or baited

seed

Everyone is sensible when they aren't met with hostility. I see your points, I even concede to some and will definitely join up in your thread and will contribute without banter. But most likely tomorrow..

I don't think this thread has been abandoned. I also don't think Semper has been childish at all. He has been quite sensible.

Some thread degradation occurred when fingers started pointing at him, as if he were the cause of all the bad LEO's. But when it is suggested that society should also take some responsibility for why the police need to be armed with tools of violence, he is further shunned, called blind and ignorant. Then refused to be spoken to, because of said beliefs. Then people hid behind the motto of this site as if they were enforcers to it's meaning.

For every bad cop video...there are a million WAY worse people videos. Which cries out for the need of stronger societal changes. How do they happen? More violence and shunning? It's a vicious cycle.

***Public Statement from one of the Social Issues Moderators***

And here we have yet another thread where a few of the members would rather discuss the member versus the subject. Which leaves me with a few questions as a moderator:

1) Is it that the subject was started by a serving Law Enforcement Officer or that it was started by a member of staff that is the problem? Because I can admit that there are members that seize opportunity to lash out again either one and here is the golden opportunity to kill two birds with one stone. Typically this is done by a from an especially intolerable form of ignorance called prejudice. And by that I mean that something has happened in the past that they disagreed with, be it to a friend or themselves.

2) Is it that these particular members would rather disrupt a discussion than to see intelligent discussion on the subject that is coming from one that has been there? Again, a motivation of a person with an agenda or simply blinded by hatred and prejudice.

3) Are these disruptions just for the sake of disruption? In other words, joy is the emotion experiences and not anger. That these disruptive comments are just trolling for the lulz.

You see, as a moderator, we do consider some things and what the motivations are behind them versus the cold and sterile enforcement of the Terms and Conditions to the letter. But let this notification be a fair and final warning, further attempts of disruption, attacking of a fellow member or other violations of the T&C will be dealt with accordingly. You are responsible for your own posts, so post accordingly.

Semper I have a question for you.

Say you pull over a medical marijuana user from a different state where it is legal. He had just bought his medicine but has to drive through your state to get home, and it is stored in his center console. You smell it as he rolls down his window to greet you. The person is not under the influence.

What do you do next?

And would you take into consideration the person's illness? (I'm not talking about ADD cases, but those with chronic pain or life ending diseases)

Thank you for your time and honest response.

I do not intend this post to be "baiting" I am just very curious about the stance of medical marijuana in law enforcement in general.

reply to post by InnerTruths


By the letter of the law they would be arrested for carrying a substance illegal in the state in which I was sworn- the same as someone carrying a handgun concealed in their vehicle or aerial fireworks or any other substance.

I was an officer in NC so I will use a NC-SC allegory...

The person may be licensed to carry the handgun in SC. Fireworks are legal in SC. There is no concealed carry reciprocity between NC and SC. Aerial fireworks are legal in SC and illegal in NC. Just because something is legal in one state does not make it legal in another.

Now there is one key in an officer's toolbox that is more important than any other and that is discretion. What public good is it to arrest or cite a cancer patient who is using a product legal in his/her home state? The answer is none- it does not further public safety.

Now if the person was using/consuming it while driving or in public we'd have an issue but mere possession? I'm not taking time on my day off to go to court over a bag a weed FFS

reply to post by SFA437


Thank you for your response. I appreciate the time you took to answer my question with honesty.

reply to post by InnerTruths


No worries brother

Just because someone has broken the law does not mean they must be cited or arrested. I've driven people who were DWI home, tossed bags of weed down storm drains and broken up fights and sent the people on their way. I have also locked people up for DWI, written people citations for weed and locked up both participants in a fight.

The difference is their attitude. You do catch more flies with sugar than honey. If I come up to a car and someone answers me with common courtesy I am much more inclined to give a warning or overlook that nickel bag versus someone saying "WTF do you want you facist pig?"

Courtesy and respect is a two way street and in my experience a good portion of people who have been locked up for bovine scatology have talked/acted their way into jail. I'm not saying BS arrests don't happen for Mickey Mouse charges... that happens a lot. I am simply stating my own experiences and observations after 12 years on the job.

reply to post by SFA437


Question, what law, passed by government would you refuse to enforce

reply to post by NuroSlam


There's quite a few- shall I go through North Carolina General Statutes Chapters 14 and 20 in their entirety?

One common one is carrying a concealed handgun in the absence of other criminal/illegal activity. Flat out refused to enforce that for 12 years. There are others such as marijuana possession but CCH is near & dear to my heart.

The goal of a police officer should be to interfere as little with the lives of the community as possible. Anything that runs counter to that goal is, IMO, not necessary and that includes enforcing nonsensical laws such as those that call a nickel bag a misdemeanor or deny a citizen the right to self defense against a human predator.

I could seriously come up with several hundred if I had my General Statutes handy....

reply to post by SFA437


Well, that goes to the heart of the matter now. Doesn't it? I believe that a vice is not a crime, that say having a beer in the park after dark is a vice, there is no intent to cause injury or damage to life or propery. Howevery rape murder etc to in fact have an actual victim

For every "6 or 8" videos of 'bad cops' there must be hundreds of incidents that are not taped. Sometimes this is due to specific laws passed against filming police (?????). How many illegal searches, or searches gained by wordplay (i.e. "If you have nothing to hide, you won't mind me looking...") go on that are never reported? How many of these events are reported by the LEOs for disciplinary action (if you perform an illegal search, you cannot justify it. Same laws, remember!). Funny how the appearance of a video camera can send certain cops into a tailspin. If they are doing everything correctly, they have nothing to fear, right?

My biggest issue with those videos that do see the light of day is the recurrence of LEOs not having the slightest intention of sharing with the 'suspect' the law by which they are being detained. Maybe they don't actually know the laws that well...not sure. I've seen videos where LEOs have to radio in to HQ for information!
Being a LAW ENFORCEMENT officer without in depth knowledge of the laws you are enforcing makes you unfit to earn your salary. I agree than many LEOs are good people, with good common sense, and good people skills. Others are thugs with a badge. I cannot tar all of them with the same brush.

Common sense seems to be the biggest omission in all the 'bad cop' videos. Peaceful protesters pushed back from the police installed barriers? Why put a barrier there - a delineation - if you want protesters away from them? Doesn't make sense. The videos of 'agent provocateurs' in the crowds (The Canadian ones with the same gov't issue boots is perfect) who strangely never appear on any charge sheets for throwing rocks? Surely their colleagues know who they are, but they do nothing. The death of a passer by in London where the CCTV cameras were not functioning (I'd actually posted that this might happen prior to the event. Am I psychic, or is it just obvious?)? Only the videos from the protesters caught that, otherwise it would have been whitewashed.

Again, not all police are bad. That there exist any videos of brutality, dereliction of duty, harassment, and simply making things up is not because people hate the police. It's because this kind of thing does happen a lot and people want to have equal standing before the judges. A judge will always take an LEOs word over a civilians. Not every cop is bad. Not every cop is good. Not every incident gets filmed.

One thing the videos have done is to prepare people how to act in any given interaction with LEOs. I don't mean just agreeing with everything an LEO says either. I mean standing up for your rights, knowing the law, and keeping the situation from exploding.

I know police have a tough job to do, but this job needs to be done with common sense, and aptitude. Want respect because you're wearing a uniform? Not going to happen. You earn respect by being competent, having good manners, and staying within the law.