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Your God is a little God.

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posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 03:33 AM
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In some respects, science has far surpassed religion in delivering awe. How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, "This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed"? Instead they say, "No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way."
-Carl Sagan



This thread is addressed to certain individuals, primarily creationists, but a lot of the points refer to generally religious individuals as well.

Your deity is little. Your deity is so small, so far removed from what we know of the universe, that it is laughable. Our universe is so old, yet some of you still hold to the idea that the universe is 0.000004% its actual age. That the Earth is less than 0.00015% its actual age. That humanity is 2.4% its actual age. You see specks on a speck orbiting a speck as the most important thing in the universe according to an all-powerful being. You see the idea of deep time as being absurd without rejecting the idea of deep space.

You hold that this being, that created all of this, is fundamentally obsessed with how consenting adults use their genitals! You hold that such a being cares about how people dress, how they talk, how they do all sorts of things that aren't directly harmful to others. You think that this being spent 4 billion years of Earth's existence twiddling its thumbs and then decided to reveal itself to bronze age genocidal nomads (granted, genocide was a norm back then) and then decided to keep it up by coming back itself as a human in the same region while it was under occupation in a manner that lead to more than 2/3rds of the world's current population not being a follower of that religion.

Or maybe you just think that an illiterate trader who had a penchant for young girls was the target of the architect of the universe's divine revelation, also meaning that more than 2/3rd's of the world's population didn't become followers.

You think that your deity is so great, yet you have to make excuses for it. There's a whole branch of religious discourse referred to as apologetics. As in apologies. Why would you to apologize for the architect of all things? Why would things coming from this being not be so plain and simple? Why wouldn't it just make sense without explanation? Why wouldn't it pass both skeptical inquiry and intuition? Why would so many disagree on such matters while claiming to believe in the same deity?

Your deities are small. And I can tell you why...they seem to come from a very small place. They seem to come from the brain of a speck on a speck orbiting a speck at a time when people thought that speck was the center of all things.
edit on 23/6/11 by madnessinmysoul because: quote format edit




posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 03:47 AM
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It seems as if you sometimes address Christianity, sometimes all religions/belief systems.

If you work a little on your text and clear that part up, it will be easier to address.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 03:49 AM
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Why the bashing? ...dont say it isnt.

Are you trying to convince christians or yourself? Now.. How are you diffrent in this post to what christians do when they witness to others?

So whats the beef? Serious question here... Did creationists do anything to you that gives you purpose to shout from your podium? I say live and let live.. believe and let believe, no matter what you believe.

What's the point of purposly creating friction among people? I see no diffrence here from any other bible thumping christian.

I'm not trying to rub you the wrong way buddy, i'm just tryin to figure out your angle and your purpose... Seriously



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 03:54 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Oh yeah and the aliens are far more powerful then our little deity?

For someone who knows no life beyond the this planet, You sure are confident in your beliefs.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 03:59 AM
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I get the same sensation from his darwinism that I do from that guy standing on a corner wearing a sign telling me that I need to repent and accept Jesus as my personal savior.

All kidding aside. Cmon brotha, we know you're all about evolution. How many threads and how many ways are you going to say the same thing? It's like you're trolling, or preaching your darwanism over and over and over and over and..... you get the picture.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 04:01 AM
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in your title you proclaim 'your God is a little God' then you go on talking about deities.

deities are gods, them you can attack with your laughter. but God is something else. something we do not know very much about, actually.

i have a feeling, that God is so grand that we haven't even started to understand it.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 04:12 AM
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Originally posted by bestintentions

i have a feeling, that God is so grand that we haven't even started to understand it.


Much like quantum physics



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 04:19 AM
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"That the Earth is less than 0.00015% its actual age. That humanity is 2.4% its actual age"

so humanity is older than the earth? you lost me there and im calling it a fail



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 04:24 AM
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Originally posted by theRhenn
Why the bashing? ...dont say it isnt.

Are you trying to convince christians or yourself? Now.. How are you diffrent in this post to what christians do when they witness to others?

So whats the beef? Serious question here... Did creationists do anything to you that gives you purpose to shout from your podium? I say live and let live.. believe and let believe, no matter what you believe.

What's the point of purposly creating friction among people? I see no diffrence here from any other bible thumping christian.

I'm not trying to rub you the wrong way buddy, i'm just tryin to figure out your angle and your purpose... Seriously


If you'd read the OP, you would have noticed, that it's primarily adressed to SOME christians.

And while I ofcourse don't speak for MIMS, I certainly have the attitude towards SOME christians of: "STOP, not further".

It can't have escaped your attention, that there still are noisy christian minorities, which have secret dreams of theocracy, have elitist ambitions, who feel 'persecuted' when they don't have the privileges of former times, and not least have an ingrained dislike of science/logic, because science/logic is a competitior on the truth-finding market.

So to keep up a model of cosmos app. 2000 years old, these christian minorities have developed their own 'methodologies'. But said 'methodologies' are as untrustworthy as their resulting 'answers', seen from the STANDARD science/logic position.

And for the man in the street, maybe not familiar with science/logic, it can be difficult to see through the basic fake of such theist methodologies. The tradition of rhetoric and even scholastics still makes up a great deal of extremist christian argumentation, and just cutting through the semantic barrier can be quite a job.

E.g. a sentence filled with 'reasonable' information, with ONE crucial, essential postulate sneaked in. In the hope, that this will go un-noticed.

I'm not a science/logic/philosophy 'puritan', expecting materialist reductionism or similar. But I think that clarity of position, honesty when using 'loaned' material (hijacked REAL science) and less tactic maneuvering would be a great step forward for SOME christians (and other theists).

I think MIMS is doing a great job in the direction of such an aim.
edit on 23-6-2011 by bogomil because: one-word addition for clarification



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 04:28 AM
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Originally posted by behindXtheXveil
"That the Earth is less than 0.00015% its actual age. That humanity is 2.4% its actual age"

so humanity is older than the earth? you lost me there and im calling it a fail


These percentages are taken on the basis of the actual age of the earth and the actual age of mankind.

Stop calling anything 'a fail', before you understand the principles/method used.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 04:28 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Sorry mate, but if your idea of what God is, is not powerful enough to create Universe and all Life as we know it.. it isn't our God that's small, it's your God.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 04:36 AM
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reply to post by bogomil
 


I DID read the OP. All of it. Twice. The only thing that comes to mind is... More Cheese?

I'm not standing on either side of this fence, I'm just pointing out the harshness with no basis to the post itself. Evolution, Christianity, Dawinism, whatever.. I dont really care. It's a horse that's been beaten so much with the OPoster, it comes off no less pushy and bashy than any of the people he addresses, yet he includes all, even those that do not push their views. I think it's a little rich for a forum that is dedicated to opposite view. It's something akin to me posting BS pounce posts about athiests and dawinists. I'm not so narrowminded to believe that all dawinists are athiests. I believe in a form of evolution but I'm not crackers when it comes to pushy posting.

...your god is so small... so is dawins wee wee.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 04:36 AM
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Originally posted by Lionhearte
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Sorry mate, but if your idea of what God is, is not powerful enough to create Universe and all Life as we know it.. it isn't our God that's small, it's your God.


You have just served a brilliant example of what's talked about in OP.

The idea of '(intelligent) design' for the umpteenth time. And for the umpteenth time (minus this one), it has been demonstrated to be badly applied hijacked science.

If you want to follow this through though, I'm at your disposition.
edit on 23-6-2011 by bogomil because: typo



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 04:41 AM
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Originally posted by behindXtheXveil
"That the Earth is less than 0.00015% its actual age. That humanity is 2.4% its actual age"
so humanity is older than the earth? you lost me there and im calling it a fail


Oh the irony! Embarrassed much?

IRM


edit on 23/6/11 by InfaRedMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 05:00 AM
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Originally posted by theRhenn
reply to post by bogomil
 


I DID read the OP. All of it. Twice. The only thing that comes to mind is... More Cheese?

I'm not standing on either side of this fence, I'm just pointing out the harshness with no basis to the post itself. Evolution, Christianity, Dawinism, whatever.. I dont really care. It's a horse that's been beaten so much with the OPoster, it comes off no less pushy and bashy than any of the people he addresses, yet he includes all, even those that do not push their views. I think it's a little rich for a forum that is dedicated to opposite view. It's something akin to me posting BS pounce posts about athiests and dawinists. I'm not so narrowminded to believe that all dawinists are athiests. I believe in a form of evolution but I'm not crackers when it comes to pushy posting.

...your god is so small... so is dawins wee wee.


Unknown to (or ignored by) most of the theists I oppose, I am NOT an atheist, but a 'metaphysicist' (as stilted as that may sound). So I am not only independent of theist/non-theist positions, I have my own defined position.

As I in some ways share some metaphysical speculations with theists, I find it important to clean out the mess some of them have created in their eagerness to promote 'A god' or 'THE god'. My greatest wish is to have metaphysics turned into something housebroken, seriously considered by rational methods from the humblest beginning, but as long as invasive fanatics give the whole subject of metaphysics a bad name this is impossible.

As to how far MIMS takes his position is for him to answer, but considering my POTENTIALLY antagonistic position compared to that of MIMS, I can only say, that he and I never have had any conflict (once a SLIGHT disagreement).

And considering that I actually am relatively well-informed (as a layperson without university hard-science education) on science/logic etc., I should be a greater threat to him than the uninformed christian hijacker of science.

MIMS has always been corteous to me and my metaphysics have never been 'bashed' by him. That I often 'side' with him, is because I share the idea, that any real knowledge comes from questions, not from predetermined answers.

Had some of the christians had their ways unopposed, people would still die of old age at 50. And there are still religious parents who kill their ill children by denying them 'ungodly' medicine.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 05:03 AM
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Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by behindXtheXveil
"That the Earth is less than 0.00015% its actual age. That humanity is 2.4% its actual age"

so humanity is older than the earth? you lost me there and im calling it a fail


These percentages are taken on the basis of the actual age of the earth and the actual age of mankind.

Stop calling anything 'a fail', before you understand the principles/method used.


im still not understanding... i guess your saying that earth is 0.00015% to the universe and that mankind is 2.4% to earth? either way my bad on calling the fail but it made no sense to me and it wouldn't be something new here for a thread to make 0 sense



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 05:12 AM
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Originally posted by behindXtheXveil

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by behindXtheXveil
"That the Earth is less than 0.00015% its actual age. That humanity is 2.4% its actual age"

so humanity is older than the earth? you lost me there and im calling it a fail


These percentages are taken on the basis of the actual age of the earth and the actual age of mankind.

Stop calling anything 'a fail', before you understand the principles/method used.


im still not understanding... i guess your saying that earth is 0.00015% to the universe and that mankind is 2.4% to earth? either way my bad on calling the fail but it made no sense to me and it wouldn't be something new here for a thread to make 0 sense


The scientific age of the earth is X years (I believe some 4,5 billion years). That's the basis for the percentage-calculation of the postulated creationist age of the earth.

Mankind is scientifically Y years (I'm not so informed on geology and biology, anyone can look it up as well as I can), that's the basis for the percentage-calculation of creationist claims.

X and Y are not identical and have nothing to do with the age of cosmos.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 05:35 AM
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reply to post by behindXtheXveil
 


Apparently you're unfamiliar with basic mathematics.

Christians believe that the universe, the Earth, and humanity are all about 6000 years old (give or take a few days).

The universe is ~13.7 billion years old
The earth is ~4.5 billion years old
Anatomically modern humans are ~250,000 years old

Using those values, we derive the percentages I reached. They think that humanity is 2.5% the actual age of humanity. They think that the Earth is 0.00015% the actual age of the Earth.

To call that a fail is to basically misunderstand mathematics.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 05:36 AM
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reply to post by Lionhearte
 


...um...what? I don't have an idea of god as I have no beliefs pertaining to such a concept. I'm merely aware of the myriad of concepts held by others.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 05:38 AM
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reply to post by Heliocentric
 


It's a hodgepodge of a reason. It's what the individual reading it makes of it with relation to their beliefs. Some of the sentences apply only to creationist Christians, some of the sentences apply to quite a few Christians, some of the statements apply to nearly all religions.



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