San Francisco's anti-circumcision initiative faces court challenge

reply to post by Prince Of Darkness


Both my sons were circumcised and no Rabbi did that

But I bet you can still get a PRINCE ALBERT in Frisco! This will undoubtably lead to back alley Rabbi's performing illegal circumcisions. The whole world is going to hell in a hand basket and you people are arguing helmet or anteater. Really. Someone's got Schlong's on the brain. Peace

It seems people aren't listening.

Discuss the topic sensibly without the childish schoolyard humour.

Originally posted by HUMBLEONE
But I bet you can still get a PRINCE ALBERT in Frisco!

That's because it is a cosmetic procedure which is commissioned by, and performed upon, a consenting adult.

The whole circumcision debate is about parents choosing to cut off parts of a non-consenting young child's body for no ethically justifiable reason.

When a man or woman reaches the age of majority, then they can have their bodies modified and mutilated in whichever way they wish to.

Parents do not own their children. Children are not a commodity that parents can exploit for their own warped and selfish fashion statements. Some parents need to get this reality into their heads.

reply to post by Klassified


I believe any nonessential surgery should be the choice of the individual, not their parents. I don't believe in piercing baby's ears, purely cosmetic surgery or cutting on their genitals without their permission. I believe hermaphrodites should be left alone until they grow up and THEY decide what they want done. It's a violation of individual choice to make that decision for them.

Circumcision removes some of the sensitivity, just as female genital mutilation does. I am against circumcision, but it should be a personal choice.

reply to post by Prince Of Darkness


Actually the much more common brit does not include that. That is part of the metzitzah b'peh ceremony. A ceremony that has long grown out of favor with many main stream Jews.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Well said, BH. I knew this would be a sensitive topic for folks. But I am too often amazed at what we accept as societal norms without ever asking ourselves. Why?

I have no wish to trample on peoples religious beliefs. I spent much of my life religious. And believed circumcision was the right thing to do. But once I became free of those beliefs, I started questioning things like this. To me, this is one of the many places where religion crosses a line that shouldn't be crossed.

Nevertheless, it isn't like mutilation is unique to the west.

Thanks for your input BH.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by Klassified

 

Maybe I am a bit ignorant but isn't this a violation of the freedom of religion? What about the jewish faith that requires circumcision for a boy child to be accepted in to the culture?

Sorry Mike. I didn't mean to ignore you. Yes. This could be a violation of freedom of religion. But even religious groups in this country have to obey the law. So if this becomes law...

I am all for the Jewish people having the freedom to follow their god. But it's time to call some of this barbarianism what it is, and stop ignoring the elephant in the room.

They're so worried about their rights. But they have no concern for taking the right of choice from that child permanently.

reply to post by Klassified


Don't panic.......

it won't become law because my side will win.....thats if it's not thrown out of court beforehand

reply to post by bluemirage5

Somehow, I doubt that those behind this had any intention of this becoming law. Just another political diversion for the masses.

Originally posted by Klassified
This could be a violation of freedom of religion. But even religious groups in this country have to obey the law. So if this becomes law...

Laws can be invalidated. The point MikeNice81 was making, it seems to me, is that he believes this law could be unconstitutionally infringing on the freedom of religion.

Originally posted by bluemirage5
Don't panic....... it won't become law because my side will win.....thats if it's not thrown out of court beforehand

If it’s thrown out of court your ‘side’ loses. Your ‘side’ is the one challenging it.

reply to post by Klassified


Could be, could be

Why do people even circumcise? Is it just because that's the way it's always been done? What are the religious reasons? Do people even KNOW why they support circumcision?

History of Male Circumcision

The origination of male circumcision is not known with certainty.

It has been variously proposed that it began as a religious sacrifice, as a rite of passage marking a boy's entrance into adulthood, as a form of sympathetic magic to ensure virility or fertility, as a means of enhancing sexual pleasure, as an aid to hygiene where regular bathing was impractical, as a means of marking those of higher social status, as a means of humiliating enemies and slaves by symbolic castration, as a means of differentiating a circumcising group from their non-circumcising neighbors, as a means of discouraging masturbation or other socially proscribed sexual behaviors, as a means of removing "excess" pleasure, as a means of increasing a man's attractiveness to women, as a demonstration of one's ability to endure pain, or as a male counterpart to menstruation or the breaking of the hymen, or to copy the rare natural occurrence of a missing foreskin of an important leader, and as a display of disgust of the smegma produced by the foreskin. It has been suggested that the custom of circumcision gave advantages to tribes that practiced it and thus led to its spread.

religious sacrifice?
right of passage?
fertility magic?
to humiliate enemies?

It sounds like an Islamic practice or something. :shk:

My GOD! Why do people do this? I'm serious. I can't figure it out.

Is it really cleaner?

People mistakenly believe the circumcised penis is cleaner because smegma is reduced. The myth that the intact penis is difficult to clean is exactly that—a myth. Cleaning is so simple it’s amazing that people fret so much about it. The big hoopla over hygiene is pure paranoia. The fact is, smegma is beneficial, not bad.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

The Jews do it because it was part of their perpetual covenant with the Hebrew God.

Genesis 17:11

And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin. And it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

So this has been a practice for thousands of years.

Reply to Sherlock Holmes: My Dear Holmes, An excellent point and well taken. But what is the greater injustice, the mulilation of a childs genitalia by circimcision or the poisoning of a childs spiritual wellbeing by schlepping them off to some riduculous organized religion. The scars of circimcision heal. The scars of organized religion last for decades. Peace.

Originally posted by Klassified

The Jews do it because it was part of their perpetual covenant with the Hebrew God.

Genesis 17:11

And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin. And it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

So this has been a practice for thousands of years.

Thats fine to me.

It doesn`t say it should be done to babies and children.


Also

Sacrifices are a common theme in most religions, though the frequency of animal, and especially human, sacrifices are rarely performed today.
en.wikipedia.org...

Are we all to allow anybodies religious rituals?

Parents do not own their babies that allow them to mutilate their sons and cause them excruciating pain based on ignorance and selfish preference.

Let them grow up and make their own decision.

Originally posted by gps777
Thats fine to me.

It doesn`t say it should be done to babies and children.

Exactly. I don't understand how people can do this to their children. I guess if they wait until he grows up, he might not want to have it done, so they get to him before he has any power to defy...

Religion makes people do insane things. :shk:

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Exactly. I don't understand how people can do this to their children. I guess if they wait until he grows up, he might not want to have it done, so they get to him before he has any power to defy...

Religion makes people do insane things. :shk:

I dont believe it to be a christian thing to begin with and also the people that I do know who are circumized aren`t religious in the slightest,neither their parents I guess we would call them athiest if one had to?

So far as I know people do it for non religious reasons.Horrible and weird.

For the women who say it looks better on a grown man,would be like me saying I prefer a women with no labia and so I`ll have my daughters labia cut off when she`s born.