New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 Victims

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Which question? Am I against "Zeus Court"? Yes.
What other fantasy scenarios would you like me to entertain?

For me then, I respect your stance. Even if it's 180 degrees from mine, at least you'd be consistent. I only hope the man in New York will gain your wisdom and start taking on those other names, just as hard. That's all I was trying to find out.

reply to post by Cantmakedisup


Wow, way to jump to conclusions. Heaven is not a solely christian belief. Have you ever heard of Valhalla? It seems to me that you are jumping to conclusions about the real motivations of the people who put up the sign. They put up the sign to respect the people that died on 9-11, not to get all atheists mad.

Originally posted by Turkenstein
A godless uninvolved person has no right to step on this memorial. Yes, even though I would not like Islamic sentiments being funded in a country founded on Christian based principles, they are. I, unlike the athiest, understand that a certain tolerances have to be exercised between all of us Christian or Islam.

Why have special tolerance for religion? It is in need of greater scrutiny, not tolerance.

I would love to see the courage of these athiest in a country like Afghanistan.....

What is the point of this statement? Are you saying you would rather it be more dangerous here to raise objection to religion or religious ideas?

What would you say if the memorial had read "They are now one with the force." (i.e. the jedi force from Star Wars.) It would seem stupid and perhaps offensive to many, or at least empty, devoid of meaning. I see no difference in the value of any of these imaginary comforts, except that fewer people believe that the force is actually a real thing.

Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3
I haven't seen Christians protesting those street names as vigorously as the atheists are protesting something with the word "heaven" in it.

Probably because they don't recognize a rights violation when they see one, nor care. They're usually too concerned with overturning the long-ago-settled issues of prayer in school and abortion.

Originally posted by DaMod
reply to post by TheOrangeBrood

 

Why can't it say heaven? There are streets named after saints.. there are streets named for the Roman gods.. Why do the roman gods get a street but heaven doesn't?

Isn't a sign with any kind of god on it a religious reference?

edit on 22-6-2011 by DaMod because: (no reason given)

I've explained how this is different only about 15 times now.

Like I said, I live on Church St.

The names of streets is not the problem.

It's that you're writing off the deaths of people who were killed by religion... by saying "it's okay, religion saved them in the end, they're in a fictional fairy land now". Obviously those who don't subscribe to that are going to be offended that those with honor who died protecting victims of pseudo-religious/corporate wars are going to have their deaths written off my pseudo-religious rhetoric.

Please read the thread or admit you are less willing to read and participate than you are to gurgitate some pre-conclusive anti-atheist tripe to hoard undeserved stars from more ignorant religious folk.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3
I haven't seen Christians protesting those street names as vigorously as the atheists are protesting something with the word "heaven" in it.

Probably because they don't recognize a rights violation when they see one, nor care. They're usually too concerned with overturning the long-ago-settled issues of prayer in school and abortion.

That's quite a generalization to make. Do you have any proof to back up your claim?

Seems like you are putting words and thoughts into people you don't even know.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by armtx
It is simple for me, I dont care that atheists are upset that there is sign with a word that they dont believe in.

Your oversimplification is the problem, along with your indifference to the violation of your fellow American's rights. And I imagine you will continue your indifference until it's YOUR rights that get trampled, and only then will you muster up your concern.

So, where is the violation? In my indifference or the fact that it doesnt bother me that someone is upset over a word that they themselves dont believe in?

Maybe the fact that they are raising a stink over the sign IS walking on my rights to believe in what ever religion I want to as an American.

OR

Ar you more concerned with the fact that one group doesnt like a public display of religion? I am fine with them raising a stink about it, it is their right to do so.

I apologize if I dont fight for every right, for every American, because there are rights that shouldnt be afforded to people just because their feelings/BELIEFS as they call them, are not being recognized.

AGAIN, political correctness disgusts me. I have a choice in the matter to agree or disagree and you my friend are simply stating that maybe my choice doesnt matter...I agree

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I understand why you care... I just don't understand why you logically think there is a reason to care...

I'm just trying to drive the point home man... If a person is allowed religious freedom then why can a religious group not honor someone the way they believe?

Why is this a big deal when there are sooooo many more important issues to pursue with as much vigor... Are people really so petty they will argue over a 'f' street sign?! You know if these groups would put half the energy into protesting something that actually 'f' matters... maybe 's' would get done.

You know even a decade ago this would have not been any sort of deal at all. No one would have given a flying fart in space wtf the street was called.

double post. sorry

Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Which question? Am I against "Zeus Court"? Yes.
What other fantasy scenarios would you like me to entertain?

For me then, I respect your stance. Even if it's 180 degrees from mine, at least you'd be consistent. I only hope the man in New York will gain your wisdom and start taking on those other names, just as hard. That's all I was trying to find out.

Look, I honestly do not take this stance because I want to snub christians or promote atheism. Taking this stance makes atheists look like intentionally disrespectful jerks on the surface. I take this stance because doing so protects the religious freedoms of everyone, including christians - and I want them to have those rights.

Freedom of religion and that which goes with it is a right of paramount importance to me. If I felt that christians had their rights being trampled on I would - as an atheist - protest on their side in order to preserve their (and everyone else's) rights.

To me this is an issue of liberties, not of competing theologies, nor a chance to exercise atheist zeal.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


That's not true at all. Do you know nothing about Aaru, Elysium, Tian, Deva Loka, etc. They ALL emphasize the belief of Heaven and all those places can and are referred to as heavenly paradise's. Heaven doesn't favor a christian denomination; it is only a WORD. Not to mention the Bible was not written in English so "Heaven" was not it's original name.

Originally posted by CastleMadeOfSand

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3
I haven't seen Christians protesting those street names as vigorously as the atheists are protesting something with the word "heaven" in it.

Probably because they don't recognize a rights violation when they see one, nor care. They're usually too concerned with overturning the long-ago-settled issues of prayer in school and abortion.

That's quite a generalization to make. Do you have any proof to back up your claim?

Seems like you are putting words and thoughts into people you don't even know.

I'm no more guilty than you in that regard.
-

...and here he goes again:

Please read the thread or admit you are less willing to read and participate than you are to gurgitate some pre-conclusive anti-atheist tripe to hoard undeserved stars from more ignorant religious folk.

You sir, are a shining beacon to all here on ATS. Keep up the good work

Originally posted by armtx
Ar you more concerned with the fact that one group doesnt like a public display of religion?

Do I honestly need to explain my position again?
-

Originally posted by vlady95
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

That's not true at all. Do you know nothing about Aaru, Elysium, Tian, Deva Loka, etc. They ALL emphasize the belief of Heaven and all those places can and are referred to as heavenly paradise's. Heaven doesn't favor a christian denomination; it is only a WORD. Not to mention the Bible was not written in English so "Heaven" was not it's original name.

Right. I specified "Abrahamic religions AND OTHERS".
You do seem to agree though that it is a concept exclusive to religion.
That's the key

Originally posted by DaMod
If a person is allowed religious freedom then why can a religious group not honor someone the way they believe?

They can.
But they can't do it out of the public coffers because that violates the religious freedoms of others.

Originally posted by CastleMadeOfSand


...and here he goes again:

Please read the thread or admit you are less willing to read and participate than you are to gurgitate some pre-conclusive anti-atheist tripe to hoard undeserved stars from more ignorant religious folk.

You sir, are a shining beacon to all here on ATS. Keep up the good work

Do you have anything constructive to say... ever?



I outlined my point several times, it's not my fault that you folks want to make up my opinion for me and tell me how and what I think. That's more of a religious trend.

Carry on with your defensive sarcasm, you were defeated pages ago with your own shallow arguments. Still flailing, though, I see.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Probably because they don't recognize a rights violation when they see one, nor care.

This is getting really mundane and silly - - that everyone can't understand your stance - - and see that it is completely unbiased.

reply to post by TheOrangeBrood


Now you are just being silly. Anyone can read the posts you've put up and come to the same conclusion. Nice try, but it won't work.

Deafeated? Lol. That's funny. There's a name for that you know. I'll let you figure it out on your own.

Please read the thread or admit you are less willing to read and participate than you are to gurgitate some pre-conclusive anti-atheist tripe to hoard undeserved stars from more ignorant religious folk.

..lol, and you are the one "flailing" about.

I have yet to see you quote one single word of mine that proves your point. Keep trying.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Yes but by current precedent if a Christian group has the ability to do this wouldn't say.. Atheist groups or Hindu groups...

Perhaps including everyone of every faith is an option that would also accomplish the same end.. rather than exclude everyone...

Just saying..