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New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 Victims

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posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 02:49 PM
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reply to post by TheOrangeBrood
 



Well 'heaven' is also interpreted(correctly so as to make proper translations) by religious scholars as being an ancient term for 'sky'. 'Heaven' itself is not God. And while I have acknowledged that there are religious connotations to the term 'heaven' it's meaning is NOT entirely religious when given it's proper scrutiny as a word.

In this case there is a religious connotation. But I do not believe that a street sign is respecting the establishment of a state religion. That is a huge stretch of Constitutional law interpretation.




posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by DaMod
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


The purpose of the sign is to honor those that died.. I figure even Atheists could respect that.. They are making a big deal over something being used to honor the dead.. Yeah real mature...

Atheists have no respect for the beliefs of others nor honoring the dead it seems..


"Atheists have no respect for the beliefs of others nor honoring the dead it seems.."

IGNORANT!
Dont lump a sum of people into a labled group,ie "atiests,based on 1 persons opinions.
Or should i call your a murderer cause your a cristian and during the crusades,christians killed in the name of god?

And no,cause that to would be ignorant!



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Nobody is pushing for atheist sentiments or beliefs on street signs.

Nobody is pushing for Christian or Muslim or Hindu sentiments of beliefs on street signs either. The word "heaven" isn't exclusively "religious" in nature. If it said, "7 joined Jesus Christ in the Lord God's Heaven", I'd be behind you 100%.


Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Okay, if you want to be willfully ignorant of the facts and erect straw men to tear down I don't suppose we can have intelligent discourse. All I can hope for is that you can get beyond the narrow viewpoint that this is a battle between theologies and start understanding it as an issue of civil rights - and the atheists protect the rights of everyone by taking their stance. Until you get on that page with everyone else I really don't have the interest in addressing your straw men.

What facts? Seriously, I don't see your argument. You claim to be against "all" signs of religious nature. (I use "you" and "you're" collectively to encompass you and those who are upset about this sign.) Yet, there is no anger over Zeus, or Athena.or Mohamed Road, all in New York. Yet, "Heaven" is somehow "religious"? Tell me, what exactly you're against, because if you're against "Heaven" because it's "Religious", then are you saying that as soon as you get this sign torn down, you'll be protesting in New York to get the other names changed too? Or, is it just the names YOU don't like? Don't talk to me about "civil rights" and what not, unless you're willing to apply your logic across the board. It's your hypocrisy that's the problem. Either be consistent, or admit that the problem is with anything "Christian". It's not a "straw man" to expect consistency on a stance.



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by Turkenstein
 


I object to what you said about Traditional "Sir" I never met a more inline person of the Atheistic persuasion here with'in these boards. May I suggest you revise your critique or at least stick to the topic.

Drummer
So what do you think about The fact that the atheists, views on this street sign, might be seen as assuming.
Seeing that Heaven can be considered, a part of ancient history. Not just a religous reference. I believe this would be the finding in a court of law. They would uphold the sign.
edit on 22-6-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Turkenstein
When you say, "important rights" do you mean the right to challenge the honorable memory of the fallen firefighters.


No.


You, sir, and the complaining atheist are out of line.


Sorry you feel that way.


The people who work there are obviously christian based, which there is nothing wrong with, and they have rights too.


Their rights are being protected by objecting to this sign.


I bet if the atheist's house was on fire he/she would have no problem with a christian coming to put it out or rescue a family member. Important rights my arse........


Right. The problem here is not an attack on christianity. The problem here is that special consideration is being given to certain religious beliefs and it's being funded in part by people who don't share them. I'm sure you don't want to pay tax money to fund Islamic sentiments. Atheists have that right also.


It wasn't given to the church, or a religious belief, poppy. It was a memorial, decided upon by those directly affected and they should be the ones who get to decide. A godless uninvolved person has no right to step on this memorial. Yes, even though I would not like Islamic sentiments being funded in a country founded on Christian based principles, they are. I, unlike the athiest, understand that a certain tolerances have to be exercised between all of us Christian or Islam. I would love to see the courage of these athiest in a country like Afghanistan.....



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by _SilentAssassin_
reply to post by Annee
 





Atheists must speak up in such situations. Just as the religious must speak up to protect their rights.


Do you think that you can decide what God means to 6.7 billions of us? Funny, Atheists claim to be all difrent yet you have conceptualized God for other people.


I don't even know what you are talking about.



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 02:55 PM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by TheOrangeBrood
 



Well 'heaven' is also interpreted(correctly so as to make proper translations) by religious scholars as being an ancient term for 'sky'. 'Heaven' itself is not God. And while I have acknowledged that there are religious connotations to the term 'heaven' it's meaning is NOT entirely religious when given it's proper scrutiny as a word.

In this case there is a religious connotation. But I do not believe that a street sign is respecting the establishment of a state religion. That is a huge stretch of Constitutional law interpretation.


X2 well said.



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by Black_Fox

Originally posted by DaMod
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


The purpose of the sign is to honor those that died.. I figure even Atheists could respect that.. They are making a big deal over something being used to honor the dead.. Yeah real mature...

Atheists have no respect for the beliefs of others nor honoring the dead it seems..


"Atheists have no respect for the beliefs of others nor honoring the dead it seems.."

IGNORANT!
Dont lump a sum of people into a labled group,ie "atiests,based on 1 persons opinions.
Or should i call your a murderer cause your a cristian and during the crusades,christians killed in the name of god?

And no,cause that to would be ignorant!


kind of like how you sound. cool avatar anyway.....



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by Black_Fox
So then you people have gotten over "in God We Trust" on our money.


NO!



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 03:02 PM
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reply to post by Black_Fox
 


You can call me whatever you want man..

Let me put it this way...

Christian: Hey guys I have a really nifty idea for honoring the fallen.. Let's have a street named in their honor..

Atheist: Oh my! That insults my disbelief in anything. It is my not so god given right that things that insult me should be illegal.. How dare they try to name a street after something religious!!!! Now I'm going to grab a beer from that little pub on Zeus lane...
edit on 22-6-2011 by DaMod because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 03:03 PM
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I think atheist are offending me by being atheist, so now what? Everyone should feel offended of everything? Stop joking.



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by TheOrangeBrood
 



Well 'heaven' is also interpreted(correctly so as to make proper translations) by religious scholars as being an ancient term for 'sky'. 'Heaven' itself is not God. And while I have acknowledged that there are religious connotations to the term 'heaven' it's meaning is NOT entirely religious when given it's proper scrutiny as a word.

In this case there is a religious connotation. But I do not believe that a street sign is respecting the establishment of a state religion. That is a huge stretch of Constitutional law interpretation.


You seem to be confusing the proper noun "Heaven" with the improper noun "the heavens".

This is easily the amendment with the most unclear wording; the debates will go on forever if we stick to it as an argumentative device.

My argument is that, regardless of largely debated legal documents, the city should not able to push an official religion, because the inhabitants -- and families of those who died in the tragedy -- do not all subscribe to that religion. If I died saving someones life from religious extremism, I would want the credit for that, and the honor that came with it; not have my actions dishonored by attaching what my life was to a (as far as I am concerned) fictional non-land of 'perfection' established by another religion that is used to cause violent acts in the Middle East.
edit on 22-6-2011 by TheOrangeBrood because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by DaMod
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


The purpose of the sign is to honor those that died.. I figure even Atheists could respect that.. They are making a big deal over something being used to honor the dead.. Yeah real mature...

Atheists have no respect for the beliefs of others nor honoring the dead it seems..


We can honor the dead without erecting a sign with religious sentiments paid for from the public coffers. See, when you do that it dishonors those who are still alive. Likewise, it's real mature of you to tell them to sit there and take it.



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 03:05 PM
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reply to post by Ancient Champion
 


I am an atheist too.
And I doesn't care what the heck a street name is called.

There's a Heaven road here too, where I live.

It's nonsense and utterly stupid to complain about road names like this.

Added:
I searched for "heaven" on Google maps, in Tampa, FL.
And got 1709 hits...
So.. it is lots of those names.
Get over it.

edit on 2011-6-22 by tomten because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3
It's not a "straw man" to expect consistency on a stance.


Sorry, I've been extremely clear about my take on it and have been entirely consistent. I'm sorry that my stance is not the one that you insist it is. Once we get beyond that we can have reasonable discourse.



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 03:06 PM
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reply to post by TheOrangeBrood
 


The city isn't pushing official religion. I'd like to know how naming a street heaven accomplishes created an official city sponsored religion.

In a court of law you would have to prove what religion was being established. With only one word as the center of argument that would be very difficult to do.
edit on 22-6-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 03:07 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


If we have to take things like this....

Google Image Search for the term "Athiest Billboard"

and ignorance like this...



then sure I think you should deal with the word "Heaven" on a street sign... Besides that's religious discrimination... What about all the other "Deities" with names on public streets?

Roman Gods detonate a religion do they not?

What about things like this?



Plus there are streets named after saints, locations, plants..... wtf is wrong with the word "Heaven"
edit on 22-6-2011 by DaMod because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3
It's not a "straw man" to expect consistency on a stance.


Sorry, I've been extremely clear about my take on it and have been entirely consistent. I'm sorry that my stance is not the one that you insist it is. Once we get beyond that we can have reasonable discourse.


So, you are saying that you are equally opposed and equally as passionate about Zeus Court?



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by TheOrangeBrood
 



Well 'heaven' is also interpreted(correctly so as to make proper translations) by religious scholars as being an ancient term for 'sky'. 'Heaven' itself is not God. And while I have acknowledged that there are religious connotations to the term 'heaven' it's meaning is NOT entirely religious when given it's proper scrutiny as a word.

In this case there is a religious connotation. But I do not believe that a street sign is respecting the establishment of a state religion. That is a huge stretch of Constitutional law interpretation.


You seem to be confusing the proper noun "Heaven" with the improper noun "the heavens".

This is easily the amendment with the most unclear wording; the debates will go on forever if we stick to it as an argumentative device.

My argument is that, regardless of largely debated legal documents, the city should not able to push an official religion, because the inhabitants -- and families of those who died in the tragedy -- do not all subscribe to that religion. If I died saving someones life from religious extremism, I would want the credit for that, and the honor that came with it; not have my actions dishonored by attaching what my life was to a (as far as I am concerned) fictional non-land of 'perfection' established by another religion that is used to cause violent acts in the Middle East.
edit on 22-6-2011 by TheOrangeBrood because: (no reason given)


The sign that we are discussing has nothing to do with the 3,000 who died. It has everything to do with the 7 that died from that fire dept. How do you know that those 7 weren't christians? Show me a quote that says this.

If you can't, you have no argument.



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by Turkenstein
birds of a feather, it sounds like you know stupid intimately, to be making statements that you have no proof of................


I am sorry but you must have a rather intense emotional investment in this street name that I stepped all over. I feel terrible now. To call me stupid and say I made claims with no proof is an odd response. Like I was saying, anyone this charged up about a street name on either side is kind of stupid. Sorry if you get yourself caught in that net.



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